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No because Fzorgle doesn't have a rule that says he does.

Please could someone tell me how this doesn't make since.

Part 1- Page 9 says turn=player turn, so Orders can be used each turn, should read each player turn.

Part 2- There is no rule that says you can or can fire during your opponents turn in the BGB.

Part 3-Using Part 1 and 2 you can therefor use your orders each turn and myou must immediatly do what they say. Which is a rule allow you to fire, when it is given.

Please point out the flaw, but I request rules be given with page numbers as I cannot find ules that prevent this.

Edit: Whatever the rules say, then that is how I would play, no exceptions. So since I can't find anything that says otherwise you can and I wouldn't mind.

arinnoor wrote:No because Fzorgle doesn't have a rule that says he does.

I'm not even gonna bother linking lex this time.

WRONG.

It does. Fzorgle is a Psychic power.

Page 50 BRB: Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn.

So I can use it once in my turn and once in yours yes? Or does turn mean something different now?

arinnoor wrote:No because Fzorgle doesn't have a rule that says he does.

Please could someone tell me how this doesn't make since.

Part 1- Page 9 says turn=player turn, so Orders can be used each turn, should read each player turn.

Part 2- There is no rule that says you can or can fire during your opponents turn in the BGB.

Part 3-Using Part 1 and 2 you can therefor use your orders each turn and myou must immediatly do what they say. Which is a rule allow you to fire, when it is given.

Please point out the flaw, but I request rules be given with page numbers as I cannot find ules that prevent this.

Part 1 - Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. BGB, page 50.
Part 2 - Lash of Submission, "A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon." The requirement to be able to shoot can't be required because a Lash prince can't shoot because it has no weapons.
Part 3 - Using parts one and two, a Lash Prince can use Lash of Submission every single player turn, including the opponent's player turns.

Please point out the flaw in my reasoning.

You are totally ignoring the restriction given in the IG codex. "Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run..." That is pretty obvious and straight forward. I can only assume that you are choosing to ignore that for the purposes of your argument because it absolutely invalidates your argument.

Somnicide wrote:I can only assume that you are choosing to ignore that for the purposes of your argument because it absolutely invalidates your argument.

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUR!

Ya know, this whoe argument is hillarious. It's like the one where people say Plaugebearers can never take their FnP roll (^^,)

Somnicide wrote:You are totally ignoring the restriction given in the IG codex. "Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run..." That is pretty obvious and straight forward. I can only assume that you are choosing to ignore that for the purposes of your argument because it absolutely invalidates your argument.

Gwar! wrote:

Somnicide wrote:I can only assume that you are choosing to ignore that for the purposes of your argument because it absolutely invalidates your argument.

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUR!

Guys , i brought that up on page 2 first post xD

I'll just stay out of this thread now, as I don't need the ridicule. I really don't care which way it goes as long as RAW supports it and I apreciate those like Slokan and Somnicide who conducted themseves properly and by providing rules not just saying that it doesn't work.

Just because the lash prince has no weapons does not mean that it does not have the ability to fire. In the rule book it does not say that you must have a weapon in order to fire. ON Pg.9 the BGB says: "During the shooting phase any and all of your units may fire." Nowhere does it mention having to have a ranged weapon. Thus all of your units have the ability to fire and thus can give it up to make other actions.

Edit: @ Somnicide - Don_Mundo has already addressed this issue earlier in this thread.

LunaHound wrote:Guys , i brought that up on page 2 first post xD

It's because you're a girrrrrrrrrl!!!!

arinnoor wrote:I cannont so I guess my reasoning is flawed I'll withdraw myself from this dicussion. I must be missing something in the rules that I just can't find right now.

Yes, your reasoning IS flawed. Leaving a debate because you can't defend your argument is childish and petty. At least admit you are wrong or you do come off as childish.

Gwar! wrote:

Ya know, this whoe argument is hillarious. It's like the one where people say Plaugebearers can never take their FnP roll (^^,)

I only argued that because it illustrated how wrong toxic_wisdom's interpretation of FnP was.

RustyKnight wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Ya know, this whoe argument is hillarious. It's like the one where people say Plaugebearers can never take their FnP roll (^^,)

I only argued that because it illustrated how wrong toxic_wisdom's interpretation of FnP was.

That wasn't aimed at you, I didn't know you argued that lol. But yeah, it's beyond idiotic.

Somnicide wrote:You are totally ignoring the restriction given in the IG codex. "Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run..." That is pretty obvious and straight forward. I can only assume that you are choosing to ignore that for the purposes of your argument because it absolutely invalidates your argument.

Aaarrrghhhh, being sucked back in...........
We're ignoring it because it means nothing. As long as they issue orders before they run or shoot, they can issue orders. Doesn't say they must be ABLE to run or shoot. And as well, the orders can give them the ability to run or shoot "immediately", so all it says is that they must issue their orders before they can receive orders telling them to do one of those two things. By your logic, an officer in a Chimera that moved more than 6", meaning he cannot run or shoot, cannot issue orers. In his OWN turn. Bzzzztttt, I disagree.

What do you mean did I not make it clear enough that I was wrong? If not then here.... I apologize for taking up two pages with my flawed logic. I am abvoisly wrong with my argument.

@Gwar!-Childish and petty am I now? Do the insults really need to keep pileing.

don_mondo wrote:By your logic, an officer in a Chimera that moved more than 6", meaning he cannot run or shoot, cannot issue orers. In his OWN turn. Bzzzztttt, I disagree.

And you do realise this is just as legitimate as saying you can issue them in the opponents shooting phase?

So don, When you play Against Lash will you let people Fzorgle you every turn? Or against Nidzilla let the dakkafex's shoot at you every shooting phase? Because if you don't, why are you trying to use orders?

arinnoor wrote:@Gwar!-Childish and petty am I now? Do the insults really need to keep pileing.

Observations on Behaviour are childish now? Whatever floats your boat buddy.

Gwar! wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Guys , i brought that up on page 2 first post xD

It's because you're a girrrrrrrrrl!!!!

arinnoor wrote:I cannont so I guess my reasoning is flawed I'll withdraw myself from this dicussion. I must be missing something in the rules that I just can't find right now.

Yes, your reasoning IS flawed. Leaving a debate because you can't defend your argument is childish and petty. At least admit you are wrong or you do come off as childish.

That was kind of unnecessary. That is what this forum is for, he debated it for a while and seems to have come around. Leaving a debate because you can see that perhaps your initial thoughts might have been flawed to do more research is not childish, it is actually pretty mature rather than just sticking with it no matter what.

edit: LunaHound, I missed your post on page 2, you just need to hammer it repeatedly :-p Here, I will say it. LunaHound was right and her argument was absolutely valid and supportable by the rules. I took her idea and ran with it.

Somnicide wrote:That was kind of unnecessary. That is what this forum is for, he debated it for a while and seems to have come around. Leaving a debate because you can see that perhaps your initial thoughts might have been flawed to do more research is not childish, it is actually pretty mature rather than just sticking with it no matter what.

Well, the way he said "oh I guess my reasoning is flawed" seemed more of a "lalalala I'm not listening" than a "Ok, I was wrong, My bad".

So, Sorry bout that, guess I misread the tone.

don_mondo wrote:

Somnicide wrote:You are totally ignoring the restriction given in the IG codex. "Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run..." That is pretty obvious and straight forward. I can only assume that you are choosing to ignore that for the purposes of your argument because it absolutely invalidates your argument.

Aaarrrghhhh, being sucked back in...........
We're ignoring it because it means nothing. As long as they issue orders before they run or shoot, they can issue orders. Doesn't say they must be ABLE to run or shoot. And as well, the orders can give them the ability to run or shoot "immediately", so all it says is that they must issue their orders before they can receive orders telling them to do one of those two things. By your logic, an officer in a Chimera that moved more than 6", meaning he cannot run or shoot, cannot issue orers. In his OWN turn. Bzzzztttt, I disagree.

And neither does the phrase "Instead of firing a weapon" or "Instead of firing another weapon" require the ability to fire, using the precedent of the running rules. The phrase "Instead of firing another weapon" in psychic shooting powers only prevents the psyker from using another shooting weapon during his turn. A unit can run, even though the requirement for running is "instead of firing a weapon" when it cannot fire a weapon, after all.

So psychic shooting attacks, or abilities done instead of shooting, should have the same lack of timing conflict as Imperial Guard orders. After all, the sorcerer is doing something instead of something he can't do and the guard player is just doing something before something he can't do as well.

@ solkan - Please see my above post.

don_mondo wrote:

Somnicide wrote:You are totally ignoring the restriction given in the IG codex. "Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run..." That is pretty obvious and straight forward. I can only assume that you are choosing to ignore that for the purposes of your argument because it absolutely invalidates your argument.

By your logic, an officer in a Chimera that moved more than 6", meaning he cannot run or shoot, cannot issue orers. In his OWN turn. Bzzzztttt, I disagree.

Actually, that is covered specifically by the rule for Chimeras (since the orders rule specifically says he cannot give orders while mounted in a vehicle) - "Mobile Command Vehicle - An officer embarked in a Chimera may still issue orders to squads."

Before everyone jumps on the flame wagon, keep in mind in my original post I asserted that I don't intend to play the Guard using Orders on each player's turn. I simply saw the OP question/assertion, did the reading and thought it was worth exploring. That said, I'm putting on my Devil's Advocate had and having a go:

1. Unless otherwise specified, turn refers to player turn. BRG Pg.9
2. A game turn consists of two player turns, each with a Movement, Shooting, and Assault phase.
2a. A 'player turn' is not a player(human).
3. Each player(human) has one player turn per game turn.
4. Imperial Guard officers may issue one or more orders each turn.
4a. Imperial Guard officers may issue one or more orders each 'player turn'.
5. Orders may be issued during each player's(human) turn.

Your argument is flawed because it focuses on the definition of turn to the exclusion of all other rules, much like the counter Dakkafex or Fzorgle claims.

The rules for orders say they must do it before they shoot or run, because they cannot shoot or run in the enemy shooting phase (at least, I hope not) they cannot issue orders. This appears to create the issue of the officer in the speeding chimera being unable to tell the grunts to GTFO, but the rules for chimeras state that an officer may issue orders from a chimera, so may do so even if moving 12", because the chimera's rules say so.

Gwar! wrote:Your argument is flawed because it focuses on the definition of turn to the exclusion of all other rules, much like the counter Dakkafex or Fzorgle claims.

The rules for orders say they must do it before they shoot or run, because they cannot shoot or run in the enemy shooting phase (at least, I hope not) they cannot issue orders. This appears to create the issue of the officer in the speeding chimera being unable to tell the grunts to GTFO, but the rules for chimeras state that an officer may issue orders from a chimera, so may do so even if moving 12", because the chimera's rules say so.

Hmm, I guess I would counter by saying that your incorrectly linking shooting and running to being able to issue an order. In other words you must issue an order before you shoot or run, but you don't need to be able to shoot or run to issue an order.

The argument seems to be another teleport homer, chaos icon issue...figured somebody had already brought that up, guess not after rereading the entire thread....

That's not the point at all. The point is, you must issue the order "before you shoot or run". Since you never have a chance to either Shoot/Run nor Not Shoot/Not Run.

The argument isn't "If you can't shoot you can't issue orders" its "You cannot issue the orders before you shoot in the enemies shooting phase because you never get a chance to even say 'I can't shoot BAWWWW'"

So its settled? no more issues?

darn i was hoping OP and his lfgs would stick to their rule
so the thing i pm you about would happen xD

It's not ever said explicitly, but I think the implication of player turn is your player turn. Everything in the BRB is written and directed at the reader, not both the reader and his or her opponent at the same time. This is the context of the entire rulebook. To focus on page 9's definition of "player turn" as meaning either player's turn denies the implied you.

So if is something is going to be used on an opposing player turn, it has to be mentioned explicitly. If it's used on a turn, it means player turn, which means your turn to play.

Somnicide wrote:You are totally ignoring the restriction given in the IG codex. "Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run..." That is pretty obvious and straight forward. I can only assume that you are choosing to ignore that for the purposes of your argument because it absolutely invalidates your argument.

This is the whole point...since you cannot normally run or shoot in your opponents turn, you cannot use orders in your opponents turn.

This is just like the Eldar Jetbikes moving in any assault phase stupidity that popped up awhile ago, because it doesn't say that they move during THIER assault phase.

You can only take actions in your turn unless something specifically says you can do it in yout opponents turn, like Mystics...this is not the case for IG orders. People are just trying to read something into them that is not there.

Can you run or shoot in your opponents turn? NO...so you cannot issue orders then....and don't try the whole "but orders let me shoot" argument, because that is only circular reasoning and therefore flawed.

If you want a rules-based thing for what I said prior to this, by the way, try page xii (before page 1) on "Taking Turns": "Both players alternate taking their turn. First one player moves, shoots and assaults with his army. Once he's finished ,the other player does the same with his own army."

By pg. 9, turn in that sentence means "player turn." Both players alternate taking their player turn. References to turn for IG orders must refers to your player turn, as mentioned in page xii.

It is these type of threads that make me laugh at the general lack of common sense of the loophole seeking fools that play this game. If you want to play the game use some common sense and stop trying to break the game at every opportunity. We all know that GW does not take the greatest care in making sure that the use and meaning of every possible word is argued and analyzed to the nth possible degree as some of the the bigger knuckleheads in the gaming community do.

I personally think that if I came across anyone that wants to argue this type of interpretation I would just bag the game then and there, as god only knows what other interpretations you are going to end up having to sit through. I would just look at them, tell them nice game and go find another reasonable person to game with and avoid that person like the plague in the future. Isn't the first rule of this game supposed to be have fun? This sort of argument seems to be raised only to see how you can best try and screw someone over during a game, not to improve the game and certainly not to have fun. I swear that all some people must do is sit around and look for foolish arguments to raise just to see what responses they get or maybe to get a survey of how many people they can try and pull this crap on before they get smacked.

Somnicide wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Somnicide wrote:You are totally ignoring the restriction given in the IG codex. "Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run..." That is pretty obvious and straight forward. I can only assume that you are choosing to ignore that for the purposes of your argument because it absolutely invalidates your argument.

By your logic, an officer in a Chimera that moved more than 6", meaning he cannot run or shoot, cannot issue orers. In his OWN turn. Bzzzztttt, I disagree.

Actually, that is covered specifically by the rule for Chimeras (since the orders rule specifically says he cannot give orders while mounted in a vehicle) - "Mobile Command Vehicle - An officer embarked in a Chimera may still issue orders to squads."

That's my whole point. Being able to run and shoot is not a requirement to issue orders. So the whole 'before they shoot or run' bit does not disqualify them from issuing orders in an opponent's turn.