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Dave47 wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:that work?

No, of course not. Read my post.

I did, a couple of times, and I think you were wrong, a couple of times.

Dave47 wrote:I do not deny that the main book's definition of "turn" supports your argument.

When you concede that the main rules support that Orders can be issued each player's turn...well doesn't bode well for the rest of your argument.

Dave47 wrote:However, attempting to play the rules that way contradicts other parts of the RAW. Specifically it violates the rule that orders must be issued at the "beginning" of a turn.

Nope, it's not at the beginning of the a turn it is at the beginning of the Shooting phase (on each player's turn). Per your previous admission/acceptance.

Dave47 wrote:If your opponent attempts to "block" your orders by doing something first in the shooting phase, the game "breaks" in the sense that you and your opponent are each attempting to do something, and there are no rules that dictate how your actions should be resolved.

Like how when I'm running an Inquisitor with Mystics and my Opponent Deep Strikes and then immediately starts shooting so as to deliberately deny me a chance to shoot.... oh wait sorry that doesn't happen (or more importantly, once both players have a clear understanding of the rules that doesn't happen).

Dave47 wrote:Instead of flatly stating that I am wrong, please explain to me how you would use orders during an opponent's turn.

Ok, following the RAW, after my opponent has completed his/her Movement phase and announces that he/she is going to start shooting, I would politely point out that, just as we had previously discussed prior to the start of the game, the Imperial Guard have an opportunity to issue Orders, and then follow the rest of the rules for the Order system.

Yad wrote:Ok, following the RAW, after my opponent has completed his/her Movement phase and announces that he/she is going to start shooting, I would politely point out that, just as we had previously discussed prior to the start of the game, the Imperial Guard have an opportunity to issue Orders, and then follow the rest of the rules for the Order system.

I would tell you that "Sorry, I started my Shooting Phase already it's too late for you" and if you dont like it, I pack up my minis and play someone who is not an Asshat. If you tried to argue, I would ask you a very simple question: "Where does it say you can do it in my turn? Do not use other rules or trying to interprate the "turn" rules, but a very simple 'Is there a rule saying you can do it in my turn, yes or no?'"

And if you STILL argue and whine about it, you get the Old-Space-Wolf-Ven-Dread-Sock'd

It is not that difficult. The IG player would simply inform his oponent that he has actions to take at the begining of the oponents shooting phase. At the begining of the oponents shooting phase, the oponent would get the priority as it is their shooting phase. If they have nothing to do at the start of the shooting phase then the IG player would be free to make his orders. On that same note if the IG player said nothing about the orders until after the oponent had made an action in the shooting phase then his orders could not be used.

Edit: Beaten to the punch. Also, Gwar! you are completely within your rights to pick up your models and leave. The other player is also within his rights to use this rule as it is supported by RAW.

Well, that's utterly wrong. Priority is part of M:TG not 40k.

40k = Models
M:TG = Cardboard that costs more then gold

Get it right please.

Edit: Beaten to the punch. Also, Gwar! you are completely within your rights to pick up your models and leave. The other player is also within his rights to use this rule as it is supported by RAW.

No, it is not. Please show me the part of the orders rule that says you may do anything in my turn? I'm looking at my copy here and cannot see anything about it. As We have said, if your rules allow you to do anything in my turn without explicit permission, I can do it too, so I can shoot my Dakkafex in your turn and move my models in your turn too.

Sorry Gwar, but those are the rules. While none of us may try that it is still perfectly legal. I am not interprating the "turn" rules, that is simply what they say and just because that causes a problem doesn't change that that is how it works.

My point in bringing the Mystics in the argument was not to say hey they can do it too, but to say that the opponent being able to skip your stuff can happen. Also I feel as I proposed that just telling your opponent in advance stops the problem of breaking the game.

But they are NOT the rules. The rules say you can issue them each turn. Woop de doo. Issue them, they wont DO anything because you CANNOT fire in my shooting phase. If you claim that, then I can fire in yours, Period.

Gwar! you are wrong. I am not firing in your shooting phase. I am issuing an order that says: the unit that was ordered immediately fires upon the chosen target.

I think we're all going to have to agree to disagree as to what the rules say at this point.
Enjoy!

sephiroth00055 wrote:the unit that was ordered immediately fires upon the chosen target.

Even if firing on that target is not possible?

Kungfuhustler wrote: Remember that 'Faith' is used in the same way as orders (at the beginning of the shooting phase) so the player merely states that he has faith/orders to issue at the beginning of his opponents shooting phase.

Actually, Acts of Faith are very explicit about whether or not they can be used during an opponent's turn. Only one Act ("Spirit of the Martyr") is used during the Opponent's shooting phase, and the rules are very clear. ("Phase: Enemy shooting phase.... Roll at the beginning of the phase.")

I guess it's true that a player could try to get the turn started quickly and deny you a chance to use your Act, just like arinoor's example of trying to deny a Mystic a shot by moving on with the turn. The difference in both cases in that the rules explicitly allow for an exception to the normal turn order by letting you act in your opponent's turn. If that's not "good enough," then perhaps these rules, too, are not entirely playable under a "pure" RAW interpretation, and need a small injection of common sense to be effective.

Regardless, neither of these examples create the same level of paradox that would be created by a Guard vs. Guard match-up under your interpretation. Your IGO / UGO solution to Guard vs. Guard order disputes, while playable, is very much a house rule. There is no legal way to resolve this paradox.

sephiroth00055 wrote:Gwar! you are wrong. I am not firing in your shooting phase. I am issuing an order that says: the unit that was ordered immediately fires upon the chosen target.

Oh gee, I'm sorry. You firing your Lasguns in my Shooting phase CLEARLY isnt Firing (even though the rule says "fires upon the chosen target"). I must be wrong after all. Oh Woe is me.

P.S. Why in The God-Emperor's name are you adding me as a friend? I would prefer if you didn't.

There, I added you as a friend.

I personally say that orders are only able to be given during the controlling players turn. They do not say they may be used during your opponents turn, The chosen wording is very loose, and this is where the confusion lies.

InquisitorFabius wrote:There, I added you as a friend.

<3 You I don't mind, you seem to have more than half a Brain And I am in your sig, always good for brownie points

@Gwar!, while firing maybe a byproduct what he is doing is issuing an Order, which an IG special rule. As we know Codexes supersede the main rulebook. As RAW states Orders may be issued on your opponents turn, you must then (if the order goes through) immediately fire. RAW says that IG Orders work on your opponents turn and therfore you must follow the rules for whatever order you choose.

@Dave47, My example was to show that your opponent can skip your stuff if you do not annnounce your action. Another example that is easier to follow is a Daemon Prince using Warp Time. Warp Time is done at the begining of either players' turns. Once my opponent says that he ends his turn, If I move my models he would lose his ability to use Warp Time. However, I would be the one at fault if before he ended his turn he had indicatedto me that he had an action to do at the begining of my turn.

arinnoor wrote:@Gwar!, while firing maybe a byproduct what he is doing is issuing an Order, which an IG special rule. As we know Codexes supersede the main rulebook. As RAW states Orders may be issued on your opponents turn, you must then (if the order goes through) immediately fire. RAW says that IG Orders work on your opponents turn and therfore you must follow the rules for whatever order you choose.

RAW says no such thing. RAW says you MUST issue orders at the beginning of the shooting phase. NOWHERE is it listed whose shooting phase, that is the problem.

arinnoor wrote:@Dave47, My example was to show that your opponent can skip your stuff if you do not annnounce your action. Another example that is easier to follow is a Daemon Prince using Warp Time. Warp Time is done at the begining of either players' turns. Once my opponent says that he ends his turn, If I move my models he would lose his ability to use Warp Time. However, I would be the one at fault if before he ended his turn he had indicatedto me that he had an action to do at the begining of my turn.

And this line of thinking makes you TFG. To purposely rush your turn to remove an allowed action of your opponent is being a poor sport.

So wait, Firing is not firing if it has any special rules? How the hell does that make sense?

@InquisitorFabius, RAW says that Orders are used each turn, which as stated in the BGB "turn" is always player turn unless otherwise specified. And my example is what someone could do, not what I do. In fact we have a player at our local game store who constantly forgets to use Warp Time at the begining of the turn. We just remind him when to use it and do one of two things. If it is a friendly game we let him go ahead and try for Warp Time, but if it's a tournament or a serious game (I.E. preparing for a tournament) we just remind him when it is suposed to be used.

@Gwar!, Firing isn't the action, the action is issuing the Order. The IG player issues the order and then does what it says, if that contradicts the rulebook then, as the FAQ suggests, were are to use the Codex rule.

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept that. By your logic, we can fire in your shooting phase. Nowhere does it say "your shooting phase" when firing with, say, a Dakkafex, it only says "may fire in the shooting phase" so I obviously can fire in yours yes?

Ahh..

the identical terminology is not (well, was not what I was pointing to) about turns.. its simply 'shooting phase' & 'movement phase'. Baiscally nowhere does it say your shooting phase. It just says things like 'during the shooting phase' ... The terminology is identical between the BGB & the IG codex.

Anyone saying they can fire weapons in the shooting phase (of an enemies turn) due to orders are also saying, by definition, that monsterous creatures can shoot twice each & every shooting phase. Due to RAW.

Obviously this is wrong. Its obviously wrong before I brought in monsterous creatures but, its even more obvious now.

No as when you go to the rules for the shooting phase on page 15 of the BGB, you find that it specificly mentions it has to be your shooting phase to fire. The reason Orders work is that they are a Special Rule. RAW dictates that they may be used each turn and thus it overrides the normal restrictions.

Yeah. So in short the question posed in this thread has been anwswered: Rules as written allow the IG to issue orders on any players turn.

There has been no evidence presented that would suggest otherwise.

This is how the guard should be played unless a FAQ states otherwise IMHO.

Furthermore tournaments should not bar this as it is CLEARLY AND DEFINITIVELY the rule concerning when orders can be issued as per pg. 9 in the BRB.

Kungfuhustler wrote:Yeah. So in short the question posed in this thread has been anwswered: Rules as written allow the IG to issue orders on any players turn.

Wrong

Kungfuhustler wrote:There has been no evidence presented that would suggest otherwise.

There is plenty, or can you not read?

Kungfuhustler wrote:This is how the guard should be played unless a FAQ states otherwise IMHO.

Certainly oh great King of the World </Sarcasm>

Kungfuhustler wrote:Furthermore tournaments should not bar this as it is CLEARLY AND DEFINITIVELY the rule concerning when orders can be issued as per pg. 9 in the BRB.

In case you didn't realise, tournaments can do whatever the hell they want. If I run a tournament and want to ban orks, or pink models or Vulkan, I can. If I want to say "you can only order IG orders on your turn" I can as well.

Quoting page 30 of the Tyranid Codex, "A creature with two or more ranged bio-weapons may only choose to fire one of them per shooting phase unless it is a Monstrous Creature, in which case two weapons may be fired." That says I'm allowed to fire a bio-weapon per shooting phase. It specifically states per shooting phase, thusly, I can fire them in your shooting phase.

Oh, that's too shaky as it never explicitly states that I can in the enemiees shooting phase? Neither do IG orders, they just say "every". The moral of the story is, GW does NOT hide things like this.

Oh Snap! Is that a Codex Rule? Dayum! I guess Codex > BRB so we can fire in your shooting phase!

RustyKnight wrote:Quoting page 30 of the Tyranid Codex, "A creature with two or more ranged bio-weapons may only choose to fire one of them per shooting phase unless it is a Monstrous Creature, in which case two weapons may be fired." That says I'm allowed to fire a bio-weapon per shooting phase. It specifically states per shooting phase, thusly, I can fire them in your shooting phase.

Oh, that's too shaky as it never explicitly states that I can in the enemiees shooting phase? Neither do IG orders, they just say "every". The moral of the story is, GW does NOT hide things like this.

That has been covered and debunked earlier in this thread.

Gwar! wrote:In case you didn't realise, tournaments can do whatever the hell they want. If I run a tournament and want to ban orks, or pink models or Vulkan, I can. If I want to say "you can only order IG orders on your turn" I can as well.

This is the first time you have been right over the course of this thread. I'm not trying to stoop to your level and be rude here...
Log off, take a deep breath, come back, take a look at what has been presented and delete your stupid posts

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Gwar! wrote:In case you didn't realise, tournaments can do whatever the hell they want. If I run a tournament and want to ban orks, or pink models or Vulkan, I can. If I want to say "you can only order IG orders on your turn" I can as well.

This is the first time you have been right over the course of this thread. I'm not trying to stoop to your level and be rude here...
Log off, take a deep breath, come back, take a look at what has been presented and delete your stupid posts

Gee, with that attitude you'd think he owned the place.. oh wait, he doesn't. You claim my point about the Shooting has been debunked. I also claim your point has been debunked. Doesn't make you right though.

And as Razerous has pointed out:
Anyone saying they can fire weapons in the shooting phase (of an enemies turn) due to orders are also saying, by definition, that monstrous creatures can shoot twice each & every shooting phase. Due to RAW.

Now of course, I shall not stoop to your level by telling what to do, go and do whatever you want, log off, dont log off, it makes no difference to me.

Ok guys , let me interupt your heated discussion with a semi OT question.

When ever game rule issue occurs , GW fix it via ( is it called game errata )? that or wait till next codex ?

I mean, im sure GW staff knows whats the intended rules should be, so what takes them so long to fix it?

LunaHound wrote:Ok guys , let me interupt your heated discussion with a semi OT question.

When ever game rule issue occurs , GW fix it via ( is it called game errata )? that or wait till next codex ?

I mean, im sure GW staff knows what's the intended rules should be, so what takes them so long to fix it?

HAHAHAH! GW? Errata? They should never be placed in the same sentence. By the time GW get round to issuing a FAQ for the Guard we'll be in 7th edition, and Dark Eldar still wont have a new codex.

There is a difference between "each turn" and "per shooting phase." It doesn't say each shooting phase, but per shooting phase. In the BGB page 15 it says, "In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, we split up the firing so that each player’s force fires during the Shooting phase of his own turn." This mean that your MC cannot fire each shooting phase, but only in your shooting phases.

To move back to the topic of IG and thier orders. There is nothing in the BGB that says you cannot fire in your opponents shooting phase. As we all know though just because it doesn't say that you can't, that doesn't mean you can. However, IG Orders can be used each turn, at the begining of the shooting phase. The Orders immediately force the ordered unit to perform an action, which may be shooting. The lack of a rule that prevents me from firing along with a rule that says I can means that I can.

arinnoor wrote:The lack of a rule that prevents me from firing along with a rule that says I can means that I can.

40k is a Restrictive Ruleset, in that you are restricted only to actions that you are specifically allowed to so. The lack of a rule that prevents you from doing XYZ does not mean you can, you must have a rule that says you may do XYZ. Guard have no rule saying they can Fire in the enemy Shooting Phase.