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I love how in every type of game genre there are people attempting to abuse a rule because they lack common sense . Maybe GW didnt feel like they need to word it any more clear .


"Orders must be issued before the officer and his Command Squad shoot or run (whether the order was successful or not)."

So quoting that , it would mean they are also able to run and shoot in their enemy's phase.

Right....

Pg. 9 in the big rule book Headline "The Turn" second section "Game Turns and Player Turns."

"In a complete game turn, both players get a player turn, each one divided into Movement, Shooting and Assault phases (see Turn Sequence below). Exactly what is going to happen in each phase is described in the following sections of this book.

Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns. Whenever a rule uses the word 'turn', both in this rule book and in the Codexes, it means 'player turn', otherwise it will clearly state 'game turn'."

Now look at the Company command squad or any other officers special rules it states:

"The company commander may issue up to two orders per TURN." (Refer to BRB for what comprises a turn)

Originally quoted by Dave47....



Does this settle the matter?


Clay

No not really, because its not taking the whole rule into consideration

Good lord, I just got through trying to explain why even if a vehicle moves 12" and gets illmobleised It would still be auto-hit in combat, before that I had to explain why you cant fly a raider sideways one turn then turn it back staight to gain 4" on you next turn, and before thatis was 12" assault Biker Nobs. Is this what the hobby has become, the Loop-hole patrol? Do you really have to pick and choose, then twist, words to win on the table?

Gwar,


I guess I am missing something here. Can you explain it to me? The post by Dave seems to clear it all up, the premise in the rulebook states that "turn" refers to player turn, not game turn unless specified.

Unless I am missing something really obvious, that was what the OP was banking on, the wording of "every turn". If not, please point it out.



Thanks,


Clay

Paraphrasing here.

Rule says before they shoot or run. Last time I checked, using a very literal translation you are prohibited from shooting or running during your opponents turn. Now the timing check just says before they shoot or run. I may attempt to shoot with my command squad in your turn, but when I do my rules check I am not allowed because its not my shooting phase. This is how it is possible to issue orders during my opponents turn.

I would never allow this, nor would I ever have even attempted it. The wording does allow this though.

For the sake of argument.....

What if you had a pair of Mystics..


lol

No, that ability is used in the movement phase.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Paraphrasing here.

Rule says before they shoot or run. Last time I checked, using a very literal translation you are prohibited from shooting or running during your opponents turn. Now the timing check just says before they shoot or run. I may attempt to shoot with my command squad in your turn, but when I do my rules check I am not allowed because its not my shooting phase. This is how it is possible to issue orders during my opponents turn.

I would never allow this, nor would I ever have even attempted it. The wording does allow this though.

Problem is, IF you can issue orders in the opponents turn, then those orders would allow you to shoot or run in your opponent's turn. And it doesn't say you MUST shoot or run or even be able to do so to issue an order. Only that you must issue orders before you perform those actions, if you are going to perform them or are able to perform them. By your reasoning, an officer in a chimera that moved over 6" cannot issue an order during his own turn, because he cannot shoot or run. And we do already have precedents for units being able to shoot in the opponents turn (DH Inq with Mystics) and I have no doubt someone can find a unit that can move in the opponent's turn. So the shoot/run argument falls flat as it is merely a timing clause saying that you must issue orders before doing these things, if you're going to do them, and does not say that the ability to do these things is a prerequisite to being able to issue orders.

InquisitorFabius wrote:No, that ability is used in the movement phase.

And? It's still during the opponent's turn, just his movement phase instead of his shooting phase. Point being, it's during the opponent's turn. So we have and established precedent regarding the ability to shoot during our opponent's turn................

don_mondo wrote:

InquisitorFabius wrote:No, that ability is used in the movement phase.

And? It's still during the opponent's turn, just his movement phase instead of his shooting phase. Point being, it's during the opponent's turn. So we have and established precedent regarding the ability to shoot during our opponent's turn................

Actually, no we havent, since the Mystics ability EXPLICITLY states you do it in the Opponents turn. Orders do not, so you cannot.

Gwar! wrote:Actually, no we havent, since the Mystics ability EXPLICITLY states you do it in the Opponents turn. Orders do not, so you cannot.

Except for the 1st line of the second paragraph where it states "A number of models in the Imperial Guard army have the ability to issue one or more orders each turn." Where turn is then explicitly defined in the rules as always meaning player turn unless otherwise stated.

So this rule should actually read, A number of models in the Imperial Guard army have the ability to issue one or more orders each player turn. Personally, I'm not inclined to play it in the literal sense. I believe that by 'each player turn', it means the turn in which the owning player goes through the Movement/Shooting/Assault phases (i.e., the owning player's turn).

I get what you're saying though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your thinking is that because he Order system doesn't come right out and say, "hey you can use this during each player's turn." It simply can't be done. But I've think it's been demonstrated pretty clearly that the rules, specifically the definition of 'turn', permit the Orders to be used in this way.

I would have expected to read something like the following (seems kind of obvious):

5th paragraph, 4th sentence --> "Orders cannot be issued to squads that are embarked in a transport vehicle, or units that have already run, made a shooting attack, or have already received an order that turn (whether or not the prior order was successful). Also, orders may not be issued during the opposing player's turn."

Basically I can easily see both sides of the argument. My personal feelings on the matter aside, the RAW suggests strongly that orders work during each player's turn.

-Yad

Gwar! wrote: Orders do not, so you cannot.

"each turn", explicitly stated.....................

Yes, and monstrous creatures say I can shoot "In the shooting phase". Not "in your own" but "in the shooting phase". This is also "explicitly stated".

I know it is not Specifically stated, but the whole concept of the game revolves around you only doing actions in your own turn unless specifically allowed to otherwise.

Its...

don_mondo wrote:explicitly stated

... in the imperial guard codex that you use orders during your own turn.

It may not be blindly obvious but its there, through a bit of logical reading & cleverness.

Stating otherwise would be simple testement to either fishing for nonsense rule or/and sillyness.

Deleted by the Modquisition as flaming

In my opinion unless it says "game turn" the "each turn" statement defaults to that players turns only (not both players). Wouldn't that be a major change in the game if it was both players turns? Why would a major change in the game be hidden in a lonely sentence and not be broadcasted as a major special ability?

This reminds me of the former Dark Eldar loophole of the Archon taking combat drugs on a skyboard. People insisted that the Archon could ride the skyboard for 12", fleet for d6" and then use combat drugs to assault 12". Despite one of the GW designers saying it was "silly" to suggest that combat drugs could make a skyboard move faster people still believed what they wanted to believe and RAW allowed it.

Of course we have it FAQ'd now saying you can't do that and most of us DE players are doing a "I told you so" to the other DE players who hid behind RAW. Of course, these were the players who were using Archon/skyboard combo.

Why are people still arguing that the RAW lets you do this? As I've stated, trying to issue orders during your opponent's turn breaks the game, by creating a need to be the "first" to act in the turn, and thus creating a need for rules to resolve the order of ability activation. Since there are no such rules in the main rulebook or the IG Codex, it is impossible to issue orders during your opponent's turn without creating a rules paradox.

This is not a battle between the Skyboard fluff and the Rules As Written. This isn't even a battle between the clear and obvious intent of the rules and the exact wording. Trying to issue orders during your opponents turn breaks the game.

While I personaly feel that you shouldn't be able to issue orders on your opponents turn, Don Mondo and the others have pointed out per page 9 of the BRB, it is quite clear that the word "turn" is defined as player turn, unless specificly stated otherwise. It does not say each players turn but just player turn. Prior to that it says that a game turn is made up of two player turns. The IG codex says "each turn", which would imply that the orders may be used every player turn. It also says that the unit immediately takes the action ordered to them. Would this be necicary if the the rule was meant to be used in your shooting phase? No, as the shooting sequence says that your shooting phase is done on a unit by unit basis, and thus each unit performs its action immediately. It is widely acepted that in order to use RAW for any rule that it must be used for all rules. RAW says that it may done each turn, and there is no evidence presented to the contrary.

@Gwar!- There are specific problems with each of your arguements. For your argument of using the Waaagh! by taking second and using it on your first turn, the rules say otherwise. On page 9 of the BRB it says in the example right above the title WHO GETS THE FIRST TURN?, "in game turn 1 a player will take his player turn 1 and go through his Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases. The the other player will take his player turn 1 and go through his Movement, Shooting, and Assault phases, thus ending game turn 1." So, the rules prove that you cannot choose to go second and get your Waaagh! during your first turn.

In regards to your argument of MC being able to fire because it just says Shooting phase, it is flawed. On page 15 of the BRB it says that "In a Warhammer 40,000 battle, we split up the firing so that each player's force fires during the Shooting phase of his own turn." Therefore, a Carnifex cannot fire in the opponents shooting phase as it doesn't have a rule to the contrary.

Well, not that it matters, GW will errata it to say its only on your own turn, and anyone who claims otherwise until then will get a Rulebook to the face.

As soon as they do the argument will be dead. Until then RAW supports this arguement. Simple as that.

GW Imperial Guard FAQ/Errata.. Comming soon in May 2020!

How funny would it be if GW does FAQ the Imperial Guard, and they skip this question.

I would laugh my ass off!

I'll be €50 Richer if they don't

For those that think you can issue orders on both players turn.


How would your resolve that? That was a valid question to which I havent seen an answer to. What if you are playing IG v IG? Could get super ugly trying to figure out who goes first.



Clay

Wow. OP here. I haven't looked at this thread for a minute but people opposed to the RAW got even uglier than I imagined, good thread! After talking about this rule at my flgs with several players and debating on how, truly, "broken" it is we came to the agreement that it's perfectly RAW with no legitimate argument holding up against it AND that it's only moderately broken. The IG still have the same weaknesses as they had before barring KP... kind of.

The most logical thing for a guardsmen to do when the enemy is charging in to chop his bits off is shoot, shoot, shoot. They (guardsmen) actually do that now provided their morale doesn't break in the face of certain death.
It is my opinion that this is not only raw, this is rai. I have used orders in this fashion in about a half dozen games now and have not found it to be game breaking.

In one game an outflanking al'raheem platoon blasted a outflanking kroot squad that followed it onto the board. that was cool! in another I used frfsrf to shoot at advancing orks... the guard were killed in assault.

Okay, nerdrage now.

Kungfuhustler,
So let me get this straight, your actually useing the orders during the enemies turn if im understanding this correct right?

Would you mind telling me how you argued this point so I can use it to convince my FLGS!

no problem. show them the book. and the BRB, sit down and then play an exhibition game against one of the 'veteran' 40k guys tournament lists. Don't bring out the psychic choir! After the game is all said and done you will see that this isn't broken and so will your opponent. the things you can shoot and shoot at are fairly limited and only al'raheem really lets you go nuts with this.
Don_Mondo has done an excellent job of making the case for the raw, you need to make the case for RAI. You need to show your local friendly game store that this isn't broken and back it up with raw because the faq/eratta is a Loooong ways away.

Sounds Great!

Espically since im pretty good friends with most of the staff of my FLGS.

Western Washington eh? Anywhere near Seattle?

State Capitol, Olympia Washington. Really great town aside from all the hippies! We are lucky to have either the largest or 2nd largest "nerdshop" on the westcoast of the u.s.a. here: Olympic Cards & Comics.