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Tiz true in theidea, but in game terms how would you decide where the flame template starts? Thats a hard thing to come up with.

I feel as well that if they were to have any submunition, that would be the case. In my opinion, the only weapon in my eyes that makes sense have a blast characteristic is the ion canon. In a true sense, an ion cannon causes a sudden and violent destabilization of the particles within the ion stream, which in turn react in the form of a microsized fission reaction. In true terms, it would be like a .01 megaton nuke going off. But in game terms, I would settle for a H3 Blast weapon. Makes the ionhead far more appealing in my eyes...

the way i see the tau... these are only my opinions

1) the tau are against close quarters fighting as a principle.
2) the tau are made to destroy things at range

the way 5th edition is played in competitive environements, they tau unfortunatly do not have the following:
a) a way to kill a very fast unit (bikers boosting, tough assault squads, tough units like blood crushers that are too close)
b) a way to get out of charge range (can't hide in fish all game and win...)
c) an effective counter assault unit to tie things up

the reasons for this are simple... they are over costed and as a result, undergunned.

tau can be fixed if they: (these are just somethings on a wishlist that could work...)
1) make firewarriors 7pts each and small targets(+1 cover save)
2) pulse carbines should be 2 shots each
3) make missile pods and bust cannons free for crisis suits, with reduced cost upgrades to their other weapons
4) make stealth teams a fast attack choice and 15pts per model
5) drop vespids to 10pts a model and 18 inch ranged guns.
6) give kroot assault 1 weapons instead of rapid fire
7) Broad sides always slow and purposeful
8) cheaper transports
9) drones not KPs
10) +1 weapon strength to fusion blasters (make the str 9 meltaguns)
11) ioncannons at str 7 AP3 blasts for free with the hammer head, upgrade for 20pts to the rail gun
12) IA options for the Hammer head
13) sniper drones in units of 3-12 with one spotter for each drone. 15pts per drone 10pts per spotter.
14) make plasma riffles assault 2
15) missile pods assault 3
16) built in multitrackers for suits (seriously... why don't they have this as standard! )
17) cheaper marker lights that are assault!

Gamesandwatch-The template can be placed any where along the improved HH range as long as the large end doesn't exceed the max range.

I updated the HH Railgun to help distinguish it from the much smaller Broadside version and to leave the Tank more apoc capable(Something I noticed GW doing in the last few dex's).

Already on the Ion Weapons. Was a rough decision between Blast, EMP, or rending. I came up with a compromise.
The CIB is Range 18" Str4 AP4 Assault 4,EMP
(EMP-any armour penatration or to wound roll of a 6 counts as AP1.)
Broadside Ion Cannon:Range 36 Str6 AP4 Heavy2,Blast,Twin-linked,EMP
(Ion Cannon is so energy intensive that it can only be fired with the second weapons system if the Broadside did not move in that turn.)
HH Ion Cannon: Range 48" Str8 AP3 Heavy3, Blast, EMP

This may seem a little off untill viewed with the rest of the dex but I ask that you take a look and tell me what you think.

@frgsinwntr- In reply to your post, Pls keep in mind that this is only,IMO.

1&2 are no brainers and When Nova and I started our projects we both agreed that we should give the Tau extra means to avoid HtH but punishing them if they get caught.

I don't want to try to make this for tournies.
First, because this will be an unofficial fan-dex
Second, because trying to redo a 'dex in response to tourney needs will unbalance the army and leave it unable to respond to later releases.

1)Fire warriors are about the same size as humans, they are just modeled crouching. 7pts would make them into xenos guard. I want the Tau to remain distinctive and when I say distinctive I mean in an Eldar vs Tyranids way as opposed to a SM vs DA's.
2)Pulse carbine at 2 shots ea and the grenade laucher is too powerful. Even without the photon laucher it is still pushing it.
3)This is way OP. This is from the thought of overwhelming through model count as opposed to combined arms teamwork.
4)OP. 54 Str 5 ap5 shots with effective range 24" for 270 points. I would say that this defines broken but your next one gets that
5)Way OP. 30 str5 ap3 with effective range of 30" for 10pts ea = 300pts. This is the definition of broken.
6)Makes kroot too good without a trade off to balance.
7)Agreed and already done in the fan-dex with the bonus of buying A.S.S. gives them relentless
8)Don't think GW will ever do a Skimmer transport for under 75-80 pts. I'm going for improved transports in the same price range.
9)Agreed and already done in this Fan-dex. Was one of the first things covered in the other thread.
10)OP, also decided that range 18" fusions were OP.
11)Ion Cannon needs improving instead of being made cheaper. Was dropped 15 pts from 1st codex and now you want for free. You ask for too much. My version is going up to 35-ish points with the improved profile. Playtesting will set final cost.
12)Thought about them, None have a distinct enough purpose to replace the railgun. Think railguns and Ion cannons will keep Tau distinctive.
13)12 Sniper drones is to much for one controller. I've come up with a sick idea for them(Think predator long range drones . )
14)Plasma is fine as is
15)Missile pods do need a rework. I have gotten rid of them by combining with the sms into a new SMS weapon with select fire profile.
16) Gotta leave something for people to purchase and to have to make desicions about.
Think of this as a logistics issue. Some suits will be armed with only one weapon system. Not all suits need the multitracker
17)Markerlights at rapidfire and price should be same or higher if the system is improved to have an army wide effect.

@frgsinwntr: Making Tau small targets just does not make sense as the average Tau is 6' (so they are midgets to marines only)

EMP for Ion weapons also just does not make sense as Ions react explosivley if forced on a target as they are more likley to knock of an entire electron shell, it should for each hit roll; 1,2,3 that hit becomes a blast (don't roll again) 4,5,6 rending

Actually Rending would fit railgun fluff even if a little OP as the worst pen roll is 12.

Please make Tau Str 5 Vehicle Weapons count as Defensive Weapons.

We need this to make our vehicles function like they are supposed too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is sombody suggesting that Markerlights should be Rapid Fire or Assault?

That is just plain stupid!!!

I know a little about targeting lasers and they need to be very still for a fair amount of time. As long as the Markerlight is within a 6ft-7ft area of the target, the weapon will hit. To be that accurate the markerlight firer needs to be perfectly still.

Don't change it from Heavy, just improve what options the Markerlight gives you.

And rail gun ammo should be able to punch through all targets (except those with an armour value) within a straight line up to it's maximum range (or until it hits a target with an armour value). It's very fluffy and not at all broken. If it hits a Marine army - at most it'll skewer 3 Marines a Turn and the vehicle. Hordes it will skewer a lot more, but that is par to the course as you have more guys blocking the LOS to the target. A bolt moving at Mach 7+ won't be stopped by a Marine or even 3 Marines or several squishier bods. A Tank or Dread might stop it, but even then thats conjecture.

@Radiohazard-In the Fan-dex I reworked the SMS to where it has a lower powered soft launch for the "No-LOS" shot giving it a counts as defensive weapon rule. It also now has a higher powered shot that does not count as defensive.

Now to your appended message:

First, Chill dude. Please to be careful with the use of the word stupid ofr a variety of reasons.

Second, I was probably working with the M.I.L.E.S. system while you were in grades school.

Third, The Beam riding and SAHL systems are the closest things we have to what a much more advanced "fictional"alien race would use.

Fourth, The latest version of the Beam Riders and SAHLs are being worked on to achieve shorter "marking" times through faster(almost Instant) hand off to the missiles (and sometimes predators).
They are working on an internal multi-guidance system to facillitate where the FAC's only have to briefly paint the object before the second more intelligent and now faster guidance system locks on.

Think of it like this. A more advanced race has come up with a telemetry marking systems that "instantly" records the targets location, speed, direction, and energy signatures.
This information is simultaneously uploaded to a computerized battlefield awareness system that allows units to immediately access and make use of the telemetry.
The units are able to make use of this by being able to note the Tau specific energy signatures that were "painted" on the target.
Think of these energy signatures as thermal, energy, or radiation dots from a specific energy spectrum that are able to be spotted on the targets surface for a short period after having been painted.

As for the Railgun having the vibrocannon effect.
First, it intrudes upon eldar tech too much.
Second, Physics works against your thought process here. I agree it would blow through infantry but the problems that a Railshots are straight line, so to go through the infantry the shot would go into the dirt. Better to make it where any unit along the railshot trajectory has to take a pinning test.
Third, Physics again when dealing with vehicles.Angled surfaces on vehicles would still deflect the shot minutely but enough to where you can't say for sure that the shot would be in a perfectly straight line after ward.


@Krellnus-
About the EMP-Ion weapons are a fancy sci-fi way of saying electron particle gun. Ion weapons by nature would short out electrical systems due to that they are electromagnetic pulse weapons. Think of them as canned lightening if that helps. The EMP pulses usually contain hyper-accelerated particles. To get an idea of what this might mean, see if you can find footage of an electron gun being fired. It is amazing what a hyper accelerated electron can do.


I went the way that I did with the Ion Cannon due to that even by our current technology we know how to physically shield against EMP pulses but the shielding has to be intact. This is why I kept it limited down to the AP1. This represents the the Hyper accelerated electron particles extra punch and the possibility that they might damage the EMP shielding enough to cause extra damage to vehicles.

BTW,The problem with electron weapons is that they are short ranged, even when contained within a carrier beam. This is due to the negatively charged particles will try to attach to positively charged atoms. This make the Ions veer off course quickly. The only hope of actually making them work over longer distances would be to somehow strip the electrons off of the target before firing the Ion beam. This is why I reduced the range but upped the damage.


Now Rending on the Railgun does fit the fluff but is not necessary. Also, It would actually hurt the guns performance by dropping its AP down to 2.

Take away the need to take 1 fire warrior squad.

Make pathfinders troop choices.


And Tau are fixed.

@focusedfire

I didn't mean stupid to sound harsh dude.

I'm also a lot older than most people think lol. OMG the big 30 looms over me soon LOL.

In regards to the Railgun effect I mentioned, I didn't actually think about elevation WOOPS.

I think that FWs should still be 1+, but Pathfinders should definately be a troops choice.

Timmah wrote:Take away the need to take 1 fire warrior squad.
Make pathfinders troop choices.
And Tau are fixed.

Ah, yet another spam post in this thread. And people wonder why it is the 2nd thread on the same topic...
(that in mind, if you have any thoughts for me regarding this Timmah, PM me please, let's keep the clutter down)

@FocusedFire, what are your thoughts on defensive weapons in this army? What weapons, and the better question: Will the current weapons for vehicles, aka, the Burst Cannon, remain the same Strength and gain a special rule, or be dropped in Strength to be in-line with defensive weapons from other armies?

The concept that I have always found very intriguing is this:
- A Devilfish with a front mounted Burst Cannon, and two Burst Cannons mounted in the drone slots. Fluff-wise, it would provide shorter-range firepower (24") comparable to a full Fire Warrior squad (9 shots are opposed to 12), that would cover the squad as it disembarked and took up positions.

@Che-Vito

I'm adapting the vehicles to work better with the Tau philosophy.I'm going for better separation of transport and tanks through specific weapon availability.The changes so far are:

1)Transports will only be able to mount drones in their recesses. No more SMS for them.

2)Drones carried in recesses always count as defensive weapons. Even if bought with the vehicle the drones are always counted as part of the unit that purchased the vehicle and will embark and disembark with the purchasing unit.

3)Sky Ray and Devilfish may mount the following: Gun drones (including special weapon drones),Marker Drones, or Sheild drones(Special ability to be announced).

4)The Devilfish burst cannon is being upgraded to a Heavy burst cannon Range 30" Str 6 AP 4 Heavy 3 (4?)


5)Hammerhead burst cannons are also being bumped up to the heavy version.

6)SMS-is now a combined version of the current SMS and Miss Pod with a select-fire option. The lower powered "Soft lanched" missile counts as defensive. To much to explain it all here but you should get the gist.


I went this way with the transports because I want Fire Warriors to still be a fighting part of the Tau rather than just passengers. The design also stresses the interconnectivity of the Tau while maintaining that certain units have distinct purposes.


On another note, I was reading through the BRB and got the distinct impression that the Dis Pod may be getting nerfed in the next codex.
I was reading the Smoke grenade launcher rules and they gave me the sinking feeling that rather than getting more expensive that they may instead just stay the same price and become electronic versions of the Smoke launchers.
Not saying that it will happen, just got the feeling that it might. Because of this I'm going to examine the ways that the DP could be nerfed and see if I can adapt the Tau to the possible loss.

Tell me what you think and ask away if you have any more questions about the Fan-dex.

Actually I disagree in that S5 weapons should be defensive for Tau, I mean think about it even in current ed, for 5 or 10 points (can't remember) we can have our vehicle shooting like a fast vehicle so what is the point?

the point is to have FOF(fish of fury) move 12" and unload both SMS(Smart Missile Sys.) and BC(burst cannon)

Hey focused fire, have you thought about changing the BS of the Fire Caste depending on their rank???

Shas'la BS 3
Shas'ui BS 3
XV8 Shas'ui BS 4
Shas'vre BS 4
Shas'el BS 5
Shas'o BS 6

Also I thought of something a little mad...

Firewarriors

Special Rule - Firing Line.

If a unit of Firewarriors that was stationary in their last turn is charged by an enemy unit, the Firewarriors may each fire as normal instead of attacking in close combat or using defensive grenades. These shots are taken after the attacking models have charged, but before close combat attacks are made. All casualties count towards combat resolution. If a unit that always strikes first charges the firewarrior unit using firing line, the firewarriors get to shoot after close combat attacks have been resolved.

Interesting idea radiohazard, although this kinda conflicts with the tau Ideal of always flight to serve the greater good. Plus, how would that count initiatively? kinda confuses things. Oh, and just to clarify FF, even a railgun shot passing by a person, within 4-6 feet would kill them, as the sudden pressure change and sonic boom created by the shell would cause the skull to rupture. Hense why you see in test firings of today's railguns, the round passes through the target, shortly followed by a compression wave that smashes the target.

gameandwatch wrote:Interesting idea radiohazard, although this kinda conflicts with the tau Ideal of always flight to serve the greater good. Plus, how would that count initiatively? kinda confuses things. Oh, and just to clarify FF, even a railgun shot passing by a person, within 4-6 feet would kill them, as the sudden pressure change and sonic boom created by the shell would cause the skull to rupture. Hense why you see in test firings of today's railguns, the round passes through the target, shortly followed by a compression wave that smashes the target.

It's all there dude...

The Firewarriors fire before combat attacks are made, unless a unit that always strikes first is attacking.

Initiative doesn't really come into it.

@Radio
Your "firing line" suggestion is essentially giving Tau FW I10 S5 A2 attacks that always hit on 4+.

Fluff wise I understand where you are going, but in application I completely disagree with this idea. This is also counter to the OP and the majority of the consensus on this thread that Tau should NOT be good at HTH.

I'm sure your logic will include, well it's a "shooting attack", but it's most certainly is not. It's a concept identical to 2nd & 3rd edition Scorpions who's mandiblaster fired a single S4 AP5 shot @+2I.

The biggest issue with mixing shooting & close combat is it adds unnecessary complexity. For example Yriel's blast is a shooting attack that occurs in HTH. I can't tell you the number of arguments that have surfaced from this. What if my save in HTH is better than my normal, a la Wyches or older Storm Shields? How does that work? It's best to keep it simple and not mix the two. Sorry for the kibosh but... no.

@gamesandwatch- Your statement about the pressure wave follows a common misperception or exaggeration as to how destructive the pressure wave would be. I know it isn't very cinematic, but a railgun shot would typically produce no more of a pressure wave than a lightening strike. It has to do with frontal cross sections versus length and the basic nature of pressure waves. Here are a couple of sites that have the basic theory:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-016-DFRC.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/sonic-boom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_boom

This is why I feel that any units allong the line of the shot would, at most, need to take pinning tests if I were going to do a Vibro Cannon type rule. I think that the railguns, as I have them, are fine and I really don't want to add complexity of additional vibro cannon type effects. One of the reasons I started this was an attempt to clarify and streamline certain rules.



@radio- I am advancing the BS every other rank because to advance every rank reduces the need for inter unit cooperation and removes the need for markerlights. Your list is close but there are differences due to a more realistic rank advancement. It now goes like this:
Shas'la-BS3
Shas'Ui-BS3
XV15 Shas'Ui-BS3(Because they are the same rank as regular Shas'Ui and are getting used to battlesuit weapos systems)
Shas'Vre-BS4(Crisis teams are now Shas'vre only with the option of a Shas'el team lead)
Shas'el-BS4 (Now bodyguards and crisis/broadside/stealth team leaders)
Shas'O-BS5
Shadow sun is now BS6.

Markers will be able to boost BS by +1 but is now able to boost above BS5


Now, your firing line idea is good but I had already decided against something very much like it for a couple of very good reasons.
1)GW has some basic rule tenets that even they will not break on a large scale. Your rule is something that they might give a special character but never to a whole army.
2)Anytime shooting in cc has ever come up it has met with an overwhelming amount of resisntance and hatred. There are already enough whom blindly hate the Tau army because it is to different from the other grimdark armies.
3)Paidinfull said it, already. To paraphrase, in my own wrods, it adds a level of complexity that I am not going to attempt to take on when GW is backing away from the concept.
4)I have a rule in place that follows GW precedent. My Fire Caste Doctrines(formerly know as guerilla tactics) rule is a weaker but more flexible version of the SM chapter tactics rule.

Reason for number 3) IMO, GW usually gives Xenos armies different(weaker but more numerous or stronger but more limited) versions of "certain" weapons or abilities that the SM or Imperium may have. This is done in an attempt to give the xenos armies personality while maintaining the thought that those weapons or abilities are universal and only vary according to differing technologies.

I also feel that this goes against the Tau philosophy of not holding any point in particular. That when the enemy gets that close they bug out.

Sorry, not trying to dump on the idea. Just trying to show that it was considerd very early on and the philosophy of why I decided against this type of rule in the Fan-dex that I'm writing.



@Krellnus-I don't feel that returning some short ranged secondary Str 5 weapons to their intended purpose is a huge problem. Especially in that they are being balanced by availability and cost.
My doing this also has more to do with a rule that GW has that makes no sense. It is the rule where a transport moves 12" and passengers can't fire but when that same transport and unit move 12" and unload the unit can suddenly fire.
IMO,Drones should be able to fire from their recesses if the vehicle moved up to 12" and they are using their own BS. Please remember that the burst cannons on the HH are not going to be defensive and the SMS is getting revamped with a select fire whith good reasons why one shot is not defensive and the other is.

I mentioned Doctrines before in the previous thread - will they be taking the form of ways of battle - Kauyon and Mont'ka + the other ways that are flying about???

^Fire Caste Doctrine will be an army wide special rule. It will incorporate several army wide policies that will will in some ways enhance and in other ways limit the Tau. To some extent this is done for balance but the primary reason is to help define the Tau Armies playstyle.

Kauyon and Mont'ka will be according to your build type. I'm trying for generic commanders that will lean a little towards each style without excluding the other philosophy. There will also be a commander choice that is equally good for both styles.

focusedfire wrote:^Fire Caste Doctrine will be an army wide special rule. It will incorporate several army wide policies that will will in some ways enhance and in other ways limit the Tau. To some extent this is done for balance but the primary reason is to help define the Tau Armies playstyle.

Kauyon and Mont'ka will be according to your build type. I'm trying for generic commanders that will lean a little towards each style without excluding the other philosophy. There will also be a commander choice that is equally good for both styles.

Kool, I'm really looking fwd to the fandex. If you want, I'd like to offer my services as a proof reader. I'm not saying that your writing sucks, but two sets of eyes are better than one and I am a writer myself.

Just throwing the idea in there.

Just found the thread, sorry I've missed it until now. Long time Tau player. Take a look at my army profile in my sig if you like.

Anyway, I love the concepts at the beginning... the statement of intent if you will. Gave a read through the profile and while I do not intend to address a line by line situation, I wanted to just mention some thoughts I've had. I'll try to join in more as the thread progresses.

Ethereals - They are presently garbage. I ran one with no other commander in 3.0 but come the 4.0 codex, I dropped him. His rule needs to NOT be LOS based any more as it is now, and Price of Failure shouldn't be so damageing, if it's in at all. With all of the plethera of ways to get to HTH quickly (Heroic Intervention, the Orc character, Space Wolf Scouts, Sly Marbo etc...) It's almost impossible to prevent him from dying. Until his upside is lower then his downside, he's garbage.

Crisis Suits - They were point costs at 25 pts in the old LOS rules. I understand the theory of not lowering their costs, but they have been lowered in ability. The JSJ is almost not as good in some situation as a basic jump pack (we do get the relentless rule) but in general I thought this needed a points decrease on that level alone.

Morale - This is a problem in general, for the entire list. Every other army out there has some way to control or modify leadership. Box Casters, ATSKF, Mark of Chaos, Mob Rule etc... but Tau. We have ld7 or 8 wth an upgrade. I think we need some type of rule that may spring from an ethereal that allows us a bit more control over our LD.

Troops - The bread and butter these days. Tau fire warriors are only safe in transports, and that isn't going to change as I see it at the moment, unless we get cheaper. Low toughness middle of the road armor and our point cost is not good enough to be our standard unit. Devilfish also need a significant lowering in points, possible around 50 pts or lower. It's better then a Rhino, but not as good as a chimera (better side armor, but not as good weapon, no fire points). in the alternative I love that you changed the stats on the burst cannon on the fish. It's SO much bigger, it should be better.

Kroot - Like kroot, but they need a way to actually stick around in HTH. I think they are a good unit for 7 pts, but when anyone hits them and kills a few, they break, and are run down. Useless as a speed bump till they can actually TAKE a charge.

Pathfinders - I like that you seperated the vehicle from the unit. Unless they are going to ingerate the two better, they should be seperate.

Gun Drones - Loved what you did to them, the integrated squad was great.

Vespid - I see you made an elite unit. I honestly think that is unrealistic. I understand that it's a fan-codex but I think we should try and stick with models that exist or are likely to exist. Vespid are ok rules wise, but should be a lot cheaper. 16 pts is to high. I do like the rending rule that I saw floating around, but I think it won't work with tau, too good for hth. I'd like to see vespid with enoug OOMPh to shoot a 10 man marine squad, then assault them, and kill them. Right now they hit 5, wound 3, then assault and eventually die. Also stubborn isn't a bad rule for them.

Hammerhead - I saw that you had the base tank at 50pts, that's way to low IMHO. It's better then the predator as a base tank (pred is armor 11 on the sides, we are a 12) and a skimmer. I hope it's 50pts, that amazing. Someone said earlier that str 5 shouldn't be defensive for tau. I think that should just be a rule. We should be able to move 6 (12 with markerlight) and fire everything. It gives us back our mobility, and ups the mobile firepower. Makes the warfish good again, and the hammerhead great. No more lumbering around at six inches to fire your weapons, we can zoom around finally at 12 and do it.

Broadsides - I really really believe that the Tau Codex will see a new crisis suit sprue, and an all plastic broadside. If that happens, I bet they get an alternate gun to the railgun, and the crisis suit gets a new weapon. I like the idea of the Heavy Ion Rifle, but honestly, let's just make it an Ion Cannon. If the broadside can mount a twin linked railgun, let it mount a twin linked ion cannon. The crisis suits would do well with a 36 inch range, Str 5, ap3 heavy 2 ion rifle, or something like that. I saw that the rail rifle was added as a suit design, I like that.

Also I see that you put in the Remora Drone fighter. I agree that a forgeworld model needs to be in the lineup, but I don't think it will be the remora. I don't think we need more gun drones. I think we need a plastic barricua. Good size and a flyer (like the valk) with a fast attack ion cannon for maybe... less then 100 pts? The valk is better and is around that amount. Make it fast skimmer, with gun drones, ion cannon etc... now that would be a fast attack choice that got people excited.

Just my two cents. Love the thread, and keep up the good work.

Any army could manage something as exceedingly simple as a "firing line" why would Tau get it and not any other army? Let alone on one of the more basic troops in the game. There is also the matter that it would make CC units pretty pointless balance wise.

Fire Warriors are one of the best troop choices available for their cost, it just comes down to the matter of application and some not-too-difficult tactics when it comes to keeping them around. Their base gun is amazing with a high strength and range. Yea, their toughness is 'average' but they have a decent save I don't see much to complain about here.

A Bonding Knife is a cheap way to get a small edge when it comes to keeping a squad together, available to almost every squad so I don't understand the leadership argument.

Something I would like to see is removing the 1+ Commander Suit, if an Etheral was around there isn't much reason a guy in a suit would have to be. I do think the Fire Warriors needs to stay 1+ because it keeps people from making all kroot armies, which is important fluff wise.

I like the idea of separating pathfinders from their devilfish requirement. Though pathfinders as troops would be fairly unbalancing.

Ever tried holding an objective with a squad of fire warriors?

It's not that normally they are a bad unit, they were fine in 4.0.

The problem is that they start on the board with giant kill markings on them. The opponent knows that if you kill them (and charge anything into the kroot) then the game is over, Tau can't hold the objectives.

I just don't want to see our future as simply 6 man fire warrior squads hiding in fish. I'd like them either to be able to stand and hold an objective (more survivable) or cheaper so I don't care as much.

Focusedfire ansa your PMs.


I am milling about a Fandex right now for tau. No vast changes just point reductions and the inclusion of Kroot Mercenary army as well as most of the stuff from Imperial Armoury but updated.


Right now I am at a Empasse.


I want to include Human troops as well but with some differing rules to make them useful.


Basically it works


1 HQ command Squad ;

I cant decide either

1 Human Commander + 4 veterans w/ Options

or

Human Commander
4 Tau Shas O or something.

Anyway this is what i have worked out fluff wise and rule wise.


The only weapons accessible are melta, flamer, Laser.


Melta - if you read the meltagun description from the old rules etc it actually never runs out of ammo it has a fusion reactor basically.

Flamer = Promethium is easy to come by and mine somewhat in the Tau area


Laser = rechargeable no need to manufacture shells.


So basically by taking the Humans it gives Tau Access to Flamers, Lasers , and meltaguns.


So in order to take a Human Auxillary you would have to take :


HQ - Command Squad ; option of Chimera not Devilfish. a Mixture of Tau Weaponry to a degree ( no gun drones or anything ) Chimera only has access to Multilaser or hull lascannon or flamer.


ELites

0-1

Veteran Squad :

This is the one I liked that was nifty I wanted to represent that the Veterans have to a degree have access to Tau weaponry but still maintain imperial weapons as well.

SGT. but have access to purchase a Fire Warrior Caste Shaso to lead.

Give them the option of 3 skills

Infiltrate and Stealth
Tank Hunter
Armoured Strike Force ( deep strike and something similar to Stormtroopers)


Access to Flamers , two can form weapons team with Lascannon , Multilaser or Flamer .

Purchase Pulse Carbines replacing lasguns.


Then

Platoon 1
1 - 2 Infantry
0 - 2 H. Weapons


Elite :

Sentinels
h. flamer , multilaser, lascannon


H. Support

none


Basically the buy in you have to structure it like the old 2nd edition rules where a Command HQ gave you X then X gave you Y.

So there is a step buy in to what you can have.

I'm not sure that you are still thinking about the idea, but Railguns should definitely retain some form of submunition shot. I'm not sure if you have seen the US military propaganda show "Future weapons" but they had a cool section about railguns. Basically they are considering the ability for the round to be able to 'fracture' into little flechettes, "in order to take out light targets such as infantry, light vehicles or planes". Whether that is done with an explosive, or some other very cool devices they have (electrical devices that use the spin of the bullet relative to the earth's magnetic field to determine the distance they have travelled from the barrel of the gun until they need to explode) it would still be viable to have submunitions.

But also - don't get too hung up on physics. A railgun would never be mounted on a hover tank (or man-mounted) due to recoil. If a railgun DID hit something, it would suffer Instant Death. Technically, the terms 'rail rifle', 'plasma rifle' and 'pulse rifle' make zero sense. 'Plasma' would be as effective as firing steam at someone.... so yeah, physics shouldn't get in the way of fun.

Have you considered adding a Battlesuit Transport? something Valkyrie sized that could pick up 3 battlesuits and race them 24" across the field could be deadly, enhance the mobility playstyle and add some very interesting tactics when moving broadsides to the flanks of the enemy.
Or perhaps a supression gunship? Stealing from a helicopter style, something that could deliver painful amounts of burst cannon/missile pod/CiB death into the enemy.

What about a medic-type drone or transport? Shas'O in Stealth/Broadside suits (or on foot with the troops)?

Or, in reference to the 'Stand and Shoot' style option listed above - say the Tau had to pass an initiative test, and only got one shot each (so your squad of 12 would only shoot 4 times and get roughly one casualty)? Or leave that option for Ethereal bodyguards?

Just throwing ideas out there.

frgsinwntr wrote:

the way 5th edition is played in competitive environements, they tau unfortunatly do not have the following:
a) a way to kill a very fast unit (bikers boosting, tough assault squads, tough units like blood crushers that are too close)
b) a way to get out of charge range (can't hide in fish all game and win...)
c) an effective counter assault unit to tie things up

!

a) Mark the fast unit with pathfinders. Then have your 10 XV8 crisis shoot their plasma and missile pods at them. Then have your HH and XV88's shoot at them. Most likely they'll be dead or close to it.

b) Surround your units with Kroot.

c) Do the math. Kroot are amazing.

Kroot are amazing like a horde is amazing. Kroot individually suck. They are a counter attack unit that has no staying power unless it is in a forest. Rolling tons of dice is great. Losing 8 guys because you have no armor save (or it sucks) and running off the board because of a low leadership sucks.

Trasvi wrote:'Plasma' would be as effective as firing steam at someone....

If that stream is 15million degrees Celsius then yes, that is exactly what it is like.

i do disagree with OP. I do feel we need a Upgrade to certain units. I mean some of these other ideas are huge and some more important than what I have to say, however I feel we need upgrade to vespid, they need more armor and jet pack equivalent for there wings, or something for the high point cost and terrible survivability. Second, I feel that Kroot need some more upgrades. Say more of a merge between the Tau technology and kroot primal. This is forgeworld, but get frustrated with the armor save of great knarloc, anyway I would like to see a power claw type crisis suit. While I am on suits, I would like to see the hq merely be in the crisis suit, and his suit decide his roll. I dont know ethereal in a crysis suit or at least in some kind of force bubble. Why isnt the XV22 a working suit yet in the codex. Seem very popular in the lore, but all we have is 1 tau in a xv22 that not all of use use and still not able to use it as elite or put it on other hqs. Ethereals need a big upgrade for there huge probable penalty of your army running off the table in the middle of fight. On this point i agree with OP, because why cant they or a shaso call in a drop or orbital bombarbment or something utilizing the air or earth cast which most fluff lore goes with. It just doesnt make sense. All my shaso are good for is walking out and shooting stuff. I mean if anything acts like a leader its the ethereal but for the point cost +bodyguard and huge probable penalty. This is a side not but seekers missles need an upgrade or at least freaking automatic hits and wounds. I mean you have to have it marklighted and then it has to roll to wound and with possible saves for a cost of say 2.4 firewarriors and its 1 shot. Why games work shop why. I mean it could have atleast been twinlinked for wounds or be able to do a pie template or something besides what we have. I like many of my fellow tau players is upset with the almost copy and past with more questions, so called 5th edition codex we got. I mean some of our wargear is useless and others the wording is terrible. Seems like all that games workshop can pump out is more UN NEEDED SPACE MARINE CHAPTER CODEX............ Finally, Dont give us a codex just to keep us happy. Put some love and sweat in it, and everyone will praise games workshop for it. Give a codex to those that need a codex if your not going to do it right. I.e. necrons or even better dark eldar

Gold tooth Jerry wrote:i do disagree with OP. I do feel we need a Upgrade to certain units. I mean some of these other ideas are huge and some more important than what I have to say, however I feel we need upgrade to vespid, they need more armor and jet pack equivalent for there wings, or something for the high point cost and terrible survivability. Second, I feel that Kroot need some more upgrades. Say more of a merge between the Tau technology and kroot primal. This is forgeworld, but get frustrated with the armor save of great knarloc, anyway I would like to see a power claw type crisis suit. While I am on suits, I would like to see the hq merely be in the crisis suit, and his suit decide his roll. I dont know ethereal in a crysis suit or at least in some kind of force bubble. Why isnt the XV22 a working suit yet in the codex. Seem very popular in the lore, but all we have is 1 tau in a xv22 that not all of use use and still not able to use it as elite or put it on other hqs. Ethereals need a big upgrade for there huge probable penalty of your army running off the table in the middle of fight. On this point i agree with OP, because why cant they or a shaso call in a drop or orbital bombarbment or something utilizing the air or earth cast which most fluff lore goes with. It just doesnt make sense. All my shaso are good for is walking out and shooting stuff. I mean if anything acts like a leader its the ethereal but for the point cost +bodyguard and huge probable penalty. This is a side not but seekers missles need an upgrade or at least freaking automatic hits and wounds. I mean you have to have it marklighted and then it has to roll to wound and with possible saves for a cost of say 2.4 firewarriors and its 1 shot. Why games work shop why. I mean it could have atleast been twinlinked for wounds or be able to do a pie template or something besides what we have. I like many of my fellow tau players is upset with the almost copy and past with more questions, so called 5th edition codex we got. I mean some of our wargear is useless and others the wording is terrible. Seems like all that games workshop can pump out is more UN NEEDED SPACE MARINE CHAPTER CODEX............ Finally, Dont give us a codex just to keep us happy. Put some love and sweat in it, and everyone will praise games workshop for it. Give a codex to those that need a codex if your not going to do it right. I.e. necrons or even better dark eldar

In the name of all that is good...punctuation!!!