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Augustus wrote:
Really? So in my 3 games at the Hardboy, from first hand, personal experience, you know how many army lists I faced had:

A Null Zone librarian with a Stromshield?
An assault Terminator squad with Thunder Hammers?
A Landraider?
At least one unit of attack bikes?
2 10 man Tac squads
A predator
2 Dreadnoughts

All 3...

It's not a unique list, it's a collection of good marine units with no over arching theme or plan, it's really close to the horde of Vanilla Marine lists out there and it lacks direction just like previous posters said and I agreed with, after having played it at a KP disadvantage round one Hard Boy finals.

Let's not get into an aside with the personal attacks - I think this discussion has value and wouldn't like to see it shut down.

That said, perhaps the point of such a list is that marines shouldn't have a plan.

As has been said by others, the biggest problem with the marine army is that it's good at everything and great at nothing. Therefore, a marine player has to take a list that allow it to play off whatever weakness exists in the army it is facing, not try to force through its own strategy.

A marine list that concentrates on one strategy is SOL when it runs into the list that does that same strategy, only better. Marines can be shooty, but their are shootier armies out there. If all you can do is shoot, then when you hit the shootier army, what do you do? In Darth's list, the inclusion of attack bikes over speeders means that when he faces a shootier army, he has some fast, resilient units that can assault.

Likewise, you can tool up the marine TH/SS assault army of doom, but you're going to lose combats if you end up facing bloodcrushers or fiends, or a handful of other things that can whup on even those guys.

A marine army cannot be mono-faceted, because whatever aspect of the game they pick to excel at, someone else does it better. Marines need to be flexible, they need the assorted elements that will allow them to win the phase of the game that their opponent hasn't chosen to concentrate on.

Shep wrote:I think the guys who win tournaments do so primarily because they are constantly traveling to tournaments and get in more competitive games with a much broader meta-game, then the theorists. They tend to build lists based off of enemy units rather than units in their own codex. I have watched a lot of grizzled tourney vets do this. And it is at times confusing.

That's a very interesting method!

EDIT:

Like a second layer of Metagame for tournament players. Perhaps this is what drives people to intentionally seek out fringe armies and obscure codices, was this true for you Gardeth?

I would like to agree with shep 100%.

I as well, very much so got into the theory behind list building before I actually started gaming. (same as with MTG <3 )

Anyways, I am starting to get into the tournament scene and I will agree on the point that experience trumps list design.

However the other thing I will say, is that I can run toe to toe with a lot of these "grizzled veterans" mainly due to my lists strengths. I have beaten or played quality games against many good tournament players who have years of experience on me.


Also, nothing whoops on Thundershield terminators.

Timmah wrote:
Also, nothing whoops on Thundershield terminators.

Both Fiends and Bloodcrushers whoop on Thundershield terminators. Run the numbers, see for yourself.

Dark Eldar are often percieved as a 'weak army' because unless played by someone who knows what they're doing, they get annihilated easily.

However, teir killing power is second to none. A ravager kitted out with 3 disentegrators blows away infantry with ease, and a Raider squad with a lance on the raider and in the squad can bust a tank relatively quickly, especially if taken in multiples. The trick of the army is to prioritize and eradicate enemy units swiftly and efficently. Because of their killpower, they tend to do this with a more certainty and accuracy than most other armies. Not only that, their ability to relocate and night shields mean that they can control what in the enemy army is capable of firing back, and neutralize or postpone the threat of enemy units, thus allowing themselves to quickly gang up on and take down a specific flank or set of units.

I can see why this could be seen as a major weakness in a competitive tournie, as they have little staying power in terms of armour, but if you manage to start rolling over your opponent, odds are you'll crush them. It's the little rocks that lead to the avalanche. If you can't take out the Dark Eldar before they render your return fire ineffectual, or minimal, you'll lose.

Augustus wrote:Like a second layer of Metagame for tournament players. Perhaps this is what drives people to intentionally seek out fringe armies and obscure codices

I think you confused "metagame" with "boredom" You don't have to be far into the tournament scene to get bored of your current army and want to start a new one. Or to want to try new tactics out.

Augustus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:#1. Augustus, you have made your thoughts known about Dark Eldar for a while. Do we need to set up another grudge match with Xtapl?

So I can win again?

If I remember correctly, during that grudge match you took a bunch of mortars that were A) at the time, virtually unseen in any Guard list trying to be competitive, and B) incredibly powerful against a Dark Eldar list.

Mosg wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:#1. Augustus, you have made your thoughts known about Dark Eldar for a while. Do we need to set up another grudge match with Xtapl?

So I can win again?

If I remember correctly, during that grudge match you took a bunch of mortars that were A) at the time, virtually unseen in any Guard list trying to be competitive, and B) incredibly powerful against a Dark Eldar list.

I was about to bring that up and I am surprised someone else remembers those posts. If I remember correctly, there was a switching of armies, and the IG army was tooled up to beat Dark Eldar.

Augustus wrote:

Shep wrote:I think the guys who win tournaments do so primarily because they are constantly traveling to tournaments and get in more competitive games with a much broader meta-game, then the theorists. They tend to build lists based off of enemy units rather than units in their own codex. I have watched a lot of grizzled tourney vets do this. And it is at times confusing.

That's a very interesting method!

That is an interesting idea that I have never thought about before. You do describe how I build my armies. I do not build my armies to beat certain armies, but I need to counter specific units that you see at the top tables. To give you an example, I do not build my army to beat Demonhunters, but I do build it to be able to beat Land Raiders. I feel that if I take out the Land Raiders, everything else will work itself out.

To give more examples, when I build an army I ask myself if I can counter units, and not armies. I need to have counters to things like Nob Bikers, Massed Ork Boyz, Wave Serpents, Seer Councils, Blood Crushers, Fateweaver, Monoliths, Obilts, etc.


People say that Darth’s army had no focus or purpose, but I think it does. It is not a random assortment of units like some people think. All of his units have a purpose and a reason for being there. They counter the other players focus and purpose. If you can stop your opponent from doing what they want to do you are half way to winning.

A lot of people wondered why he took a Thunderfire Cannon. You can see the anti-unit build concept where he is trying to counter other units with the TFC. His army works for the most part by castling up and outshooting the opponent. The problem is that there are a lot of units that can thwart this plan. Darth explained why he took it was to counter units that hang out on the other side of the board that he could not kill by shooting. Examples of these units are Lootas, Rangers/Pathfinders, Scouts with camo cloaks, Kroots in woods, etc, (A whirlwind could also fill this role) but you see why he took it. His army had a problem and he took the TFC to solve it.

Blackmoor wrote:
That is an interesting idea that I have never thought about before. You do describe how I build my armies. I do not build my armies to beat certain armies, but I need to counter specific units that you see at the top tables. To give you an example, I do not build my army to beat Demonhunters, but I do build it to be able to beat Land Raiders. I feel that if I take out the Land Raiders, everything else will work itself out.

To give more examples, when I build an army I ask myself if I can counter units, and not armies. I need to have counters to things like Nob Bikers, Massed Ork Boyz, Wave Serpents, Seer Councils, Blood Crushers, Fateweaver, Monoliths, Obilts, etc.

Blackmoor you have hit it on the head. That is excactly how I think when I build my best armies. I'll take an army here or there that I want to challenge myself with, but when I want to do well in a tournament I go through the same thought process you described and at 2500pts the marines solve most of my problems. You are also correct that with the marines I love to react to my opponent. I'll dictate the terms in a game when the opportunity arises, but if my opponent wants to overload on some aspect of the game I will have the ability to react to that threat and beat the army in another phase of the game, Jack of all trades, master of none. That is the essence of my marine style. Outshoot me if you can or out assault me, but you can't do both and I'll need to do the opposite of what you do in order to beat you. Most of the time I run into lists that out assault me so I sit back and shoot away, but that's not always the case and the best lists I have can adapt to that circumstance.

I guess it's a different way of looking at list building and it comes from a certain style of play. I'm not saying it's superior to anything else and it's probably not the best idea for everyone. Some people will be more successful playing a list that tries to dictate the course of the game in one way each and every game and that way might be best for them. That's fine to. There is more than one way to skin a cat and there is more than one way to build and play successful 40k army lists.

Mosg wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:#1. Augustus, you have made your thoughts known about Dark Eldar for a while. Do we need to set up another grudge match with Xtapl?

So I can win again?

If I remember correctly, during that grudge match you took a bunch of mortars that were A) at the time, virtually unseen in any Guard list trying to be competitive, and B) incredibly powerful against a Dark Eldar list.

Yes tooled up to beat Dark Eldar with IG mortars and Ogryns, the most powerful IG units in 4th edition...

Boy do you guys have it wrong.

Augustus wrote:

Mosg wrote:

Augustus wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:#1. Augustus, you have made your thoughts known about Dark Eldar for a while. Do we need to set up another grudge match with Xtapl?

So I can win again?

If I remember correctly, during that grudge match you took a bunch of mortars that were A) at the time, virtually unseen in any Guard list trying to be competitive, and B) incredibly powerful against a Dark Eldar list.

Yes tooled up to beat Dark Eldar with IG mortars and Ogryns, the most powerful IG units in 4th edition...

Boy do you guys have it wrong.

Mortars *were* the most effective tool in the codex at the time to deal with Dark Eldar taking into account units available and the 4E rules... So yeah, you were tooled up to kill him.

Blackmoor wrote:

That is an interesting idea that I have never thought about before. You do describe how I build my armies. I do not build my armies to beat certain armies, but I need to counter specific units that you see at the top tables. To give you an example, I do not build my army to beat Demonhunters, but I do build it to be able to beat Land Raiders. I feel that if I take out the Land Raiders, everything else will work itself out.

To give more examples, when I build an army I ask myself if I can counter units, and not armies. I need to have counters to things like Nob Bikers, Massed Ork Boyz, Wave Serpents, Seer Councils, Blood Crushers, Fateweaver, Monoliths, Obilts, etc.


People say that Darth’s army had no focus or purpose, but I think it does. It is not a random assortment of units like some people think. All of his units have a purpose and a reason for being there. They counter the other players focus and purpose. If you can stop your opponent from doing what they want to do you are half way to winning.

A lot of people wondered why he took a Thunderfire Cannon. You can see the anti-unit build concept where he is trying to counter other units with the TFC. His army works for the most part by castling up and outshooting the opponent. The problem is that there are a lot of units that can thwart this plan. Darth explained why he took it was to counter units that hang out on the other side of the board that he could not kill by shooting. Examples of these units are Lootas, Rangers/Pathfinders, Scouts with camo cloaks, Kroots in woods, etc, (A whirlwind could also fill this role) but you see why he took it. His army had a problem and he took the TFC to solve it.

I usually build about 75% of my list, with the units that I feel give me the most "power and diversity of power" then go through all the units in the game that are a problem. "how do I kill land raiders, ahh this does it, check....how about a 10-man termie squad, ok...how about multiple transports ect..."

a little more broad than just land raiders, but commonly used units/concepts, you are unlikely to play 2 identical armies, but you are going to play against space elves in transports with lance weapons, and IG shooting out of chimeras, and big nasty tanks, if you're lucky they are the tau versions :-p

Augustus wrote:
Personal attacks are against forum rules Shep. I don't have trophy fever, I can't, because darth didn't win one either. I think its fair to say a directionless list didn't do well because I was there and I played it.

Didn't he place higher than you? So perhaps it was YOUR list which 'lacked direction' and 'didn't do well'?

Augustus wrote:
It's not a unique list, it's a collection of good marine units with no over arching theme or plan, it's really close to the horde of Vanilla Marine lists out there and it lacks direction just like previous posters said and I agreed with, after having played it at a KP disadvantage round one Hard Boy finals.

'Tis funny, given that Timmah originally criticized that list for NOT having enough "good marine units".

Backfire wrote:
'Tis funny, given that Timmah originally criticized that list for NOT having enough "good marine units".

Tis funny that you take what Timmah says at face value to the exclusion of everyone else? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

whitedragon wrote:

Backfire wrote:
'Tis funny, given that Timmah originally criticized that list for NOT having enough "good marine units".

Tis funny that you take what Timmah says at face value to the exclusion of everyone else? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

I'm totally at loss what YOU are trying to say here. As I recall, I don't remember mentioning "everyone else", so I'm not sure what you were trying to read there.

Backfire wrote:

Augustus wrote:
Personal attacks are against forum rules Shep. I don't have trophy fever, I can't, because darth didn't win one either. I think its fair to say a directionless list didn't do well because I was there and I played it.

Didn't he place higher than you? So perhaps it was YOUR list which 'lacked direction' and 'didn't do well'?

Augustus wrote:
It's not a unique list, it's a collection of good marine units with no over arching theme or plan, it's really close to the horde of Vanilla Marine lists out there and it lacks direction just like previous posters said and I agreed with, after having played it at a KP disadvantage round one Hard Boy finals.

'Tis funny, given that Timmah originally criticized that list for NOT having enough "good marine units".

Backfire wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Backfire wrote:
'Tis funny, given that Timmah originally criticized that list for NOT having enough "good marine units".

Tis funny that you take what Timmah says at face value to the exclusion of everyone else? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

I'm totally at loss what YOU are trying to say here. As I recall, I don't remember mentioning "everyone else", so I'm not sure what you were trying to read there.

So....you're not attacking Augustus' or Timmah's view of Darth Diggler's army? Then why even post?

I think he was just pointing out the irony that one person criticized Darth’s list for not taking the good marine units, and the other for just taking a collection of the best marine units.

Mosg wrote:Mortars *were* the most effective tool in the codex at the time to deal with Dark Eldar taking into account units available and the 4E rules... So yeah, you were tooled up to kill him.

OK mosg, lets set the record strait here.

For the studio audience we are talking about a several year old 4th ed. game that turned into a batrep, IG vs DE. Im writing this in response to modg obvious attacks and outright malicious evaluation of the game.

The army choice I made in the V4 game included 3 big units I took, because they were the biggest stinkers in the IG dex:

A Heavy company of Mortars
An Ogryn Squad
A 20 man conscript unit

I took these on purpose, because the other choices I had at the time were even better. In fact my opponent had warned me before hand the game would be moot if I put down 12 heavy bolters, which I had the figures for. The other choices would have been:

A heavy company of Heavy Bolters
Another Basilisk
Drop Veterans
Drop Sentinels
More platoons

So I actually played the softest list I could for the "grudge match" and the DE couldn't even beat that. It was so bad that DE die hard fan people cried foul about mortars, they were a bolter with a blast and all game they killed a few warriors, that's it. They died in melee and weren't even a factor, details mosg is just completely leaving out. What beat the DE in that game? It was really the auto pin, and squad wounds 4th ed rules for getting out of wrecks and the basilisk and long range missile fire which dropped all the paper thin vehicles. Something I contend is still an issue even in 5th.

If the DE couldn't beat that list it just cemented my point even better then and now.

Augustus wrote:

Mosg wrote:Mortars *were* the most effective tool in the codex at the time to deal with Dark Eldar taking into account units available and the 4E rules... So yeah, you were tooled up to kill him.

OK mosg, lets set the record strait here.

For the studio audience we are talking about a several year old 4th ed. game that turned into a batrep, IG vs DE. Im writing this in response to modg obvious attacks and outright malicious evaluation of the game.

The army choice I made in the V4 game included 3 big units I took, because they were the biggest stinkers in the IG dex:

A Heavy company of Mortars
An Ogryn Squad
A 20 man conscript unit

I took these on purpose, because the other choices I had at the time were even better. In fact my opponent had warned me before hand the game would be moot if I put down 12 heavy bolters, which I had the figures for. The other choices would have been:

A heavy company of Heavy Bolters
Another Basilisk
Drop Veterans
Drop Sentinels
More platoons

So I actually played the softest list I could for the "grudge match" and the DE couldn't even beat that. It was so bad that DE die hard fan people cried foul about mortars, they were a bolter with a blast and all game they killed a few warriors, that's it. They died in melee and weren't even a factor, details mosg is just completely leaving out. What beat the DE in that game? It was really the auto pin, and squad wounds 4th ed rules for getting out of wrecks and the basilisk and long range missile fire which dropped all the paper thin vehicles. Something I contend is still an issue even in 5th.

If the DE couldn't beat that list it just cemented my point even better then and now.

>.> If I remember right, you cried like a little girl when everyone made fun of you for bringing such a crappy uncompetitive list. Winning is no fun if you cry afterwards.

Honkeybro, that kind of statement is deliberately inflammatory and insulting, in violation of Rule 1. This is a warning. -The Mgmt.

Augustus wrote:Lets be honest, I had more KP than you did in round one and without the Hardboy "day of" KP changes (2 for HS, E, and FA and 3 for HQs), you would have gone to the bottom of the pack, not the middle. Why? Because that unfocused list didn't out shoot or outfight Eldar with a massive KP handicap. By the core rules, you lost game one too, not tied, and with fewer KP in the list even by hardboy rules.

Augustus, this seems unnecessarily aggressive, and I don't think I agree with your argument, either. Please note that by the rules of the scenario the two of you played, you got a draw. Stating what the outcome would have been if you had been playing a DIFFERENT scenario is speculative, given that he might well have deployed and played differently in said different scenario.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Augustus wrote:

Shep wrote:I think the guys who win tournaments do so primarily because they are constantly traveling to tournaments and get in more competitive games with a much broader meta-game, then the theorists. They tend to build lists based off of enemy units rather than units in their own codex. I have watched a lot of grizzled tourney vets do this. And it is at times confusing.

That's a very interesting method!

EDIT:

Like a second layer of Metagame for tournament players. Perhaps this is what drives people to intentionally seek out fringe armies and obscure codices, was this true for you Gardeth?

Good discussion. I tend to concur. And with the boredom argument.

Augustus wrote:Im writing this in response to modg obvious attacks and outright malicious evaluation of the game.

My intent is not malicious and I'm not attacking you at all.

Augustus wrote:So I actually played the softest list I could for the "grudge match" and the DE couldn't even beat that. It was so bad that DE die hard fan people cried foul about mortars, they were a bolter with a blast and all game they killed a few warriors, that's it. They died in melee and weren't even a factor, details mosg is just completely leaving out. What beat the DE in that game? It was really the auto pin, and squad wounds 4th ed rules for getting out of wrecks and the basilisk and long range missile fire which dropped all the paper thin vehicles. Something I contend is still an issue even in 5th.

If the DE couldn't beat that list it just cemented my point even better then and now.

I believe that the issue was one of deployment--The mortars may not have actually killed a great deal of points but if I remember correctly they really complicated Xtapl's placement of Raiders.

I'm not trying to flame you, but if my memory serves almost everyone who read the battle report agreed that your list was pretty well tooled to deal with Dark Eldar--Whether you could have made a more competitive list or not with the models you had available to you is not really relevant. What is relevant is that most people agreed your list included a lot of uncommon units that ALSO happened to be the nuts against Dark Eldar.

Yes taking mortars and ogryn against the one army they are really effective against seemed a bit like tooling to me at the time. Hell taking IG over marines is pretty much tooling against DE. Not antagonistic and in the end I agree xaptl still didn't beat you. But like any dakka dakka grudge match they don't prove anything, they just provide drama and entertainment. But that is a big digression from the more interesting topic.

The discussion here has been interesting and varied. Lotsa food for thought and has had me rethinking my own marines. Wish there were more topics that were as interesting.

Mosg wrote:

Augustus wrote:Im writing this in response to modg obvious attacks and outright malicious evaluation of the game.

My intent is not malicious and I'm not attacking you at all.

Augustus wrote:So I actually played the softest list I could for the "grudge match" and the DE couldn't even beat that. It was so bad that DE die hard fan people cried foul about mortars, they were a bolter with a blast and all game they killed a few warriors, that's it. They died in melee and weren't even a factor, details mosg is just completely leaving out. What beat the DE in that game? It was really the auto pin, and squad wounds 4th ed rules for getting out of wrecks and the basilisk and long range missile fire which dropped all the paper thin vehicles. Something I contend is still an issue even in 5th.

If the DE couldn't beat that list it just cemented my point even better then and now.

I believe that the issue was one of deployment--The mortars may not have actually killed a great deal of points but if I remember correctly they really complicated Xtapl's placement of Raiders.

I'm not trying to flame you, but if my memory serves almost everyone who read the battle report agreed that your list was pretty well tooled to deal with Dark Eldar--Whether you could have made a more competitive list or not with the models you had available to you is not really relevant. What is relevant is that most people agreed your list included a lot of uncommon units that ALSO happened to be the nuts against Dark Eldar.

You mean this batrep?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/395.page

Of course Xtapl took that list to a tournament a few months later and went 2-0-1 and Augustus did not understand how he did so well.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/35240.page

Nice pull there, Blackmoor

This list not focus

Librarian – Termie armour, storm shield, null zone, vortex of doom
5 Th+Ss Termies
Land Raider Redeemer – multi-melta
x2 Dreadnought (assuming multi-melta)
x4 10 marines w/4 lascannons +melta
x2 Razorback w/ assault cannons
3 attack bikes
3 multi-melta attack bikes(assuming 2 and 1)
Landspeeder typhoon
10 devastators – 4 missile launchers
Predator Destructor
Thunderfire cannon


Lets see 4 seperate lascannon targets, 3 seperate 2 missle launcher targets, and the predator for long range.

Five multimelta targets, three twin-linked assault cannon targets, and the 2 meltaguns inside the razorbacks for midrange.

Focus list have easy targets, lash and landraider spam you know what to destroy, with darth list it doesnt matter what you destroy he maintains the same threats. Its simple when you think about it, I take out a landraider I remove the threat of termies charging 20 inches, I take out a dreadnaught in darth list I just killed one of five multimelta platforms.

Darth won his games by killing/immobilizing the biggest threat to his midrange elements with his long range parts. He then could overwhelm his opponent with attack bikes, dreadnaughts, razorback, and his single landraider with midrange, eventhough his longrange elements are still there.

His list is focus it is either longe range anti-tank or midrange assault cannons or mobile meltas, and it is spread out so he will maintain his two strengths even with casualties.

Do you know why darth took the thunder fire cannon? Sure its great for orks but really its for bolster defense its a cheap way to get a 3+ save, which helps his marines.

The redeemer is a counter charge unit, that could take advantage of machine spirit and shoot twin-linked assault cannons(underated weapon when twin-linked) at one thing and the melta at something else. However because it has a librarian in it aswell this was most likely for seer council.

A really good list, but like timmah said it could be improved. How can this list be improved only ytth knows, but how can this list win more games only darth knows.

The reasons why I believe only darth can improve his list?
1.Target priority-We dont know the units that he fears the most. The main threat will most likely be slowed down, but the second/third threat is the thing that gets through and can hurt him.

2.Re-read 1

3.Aggression level-Is he as aggressive with his bikes with chimeras/rhinos as he is with landraiders? He has multiple threats how much does he care about the lost of one?

This list has many weaknesses the only cc unit is the raiders with termies, the midrange threats are easily eliminated, only one weapon can take out multiple meqs and its a flamer.

I wanna know what that eldar guy who placed second was running.

Considering how this thread has been hijacked a dozen times already I have no qualms about asking another off topic question, directed at you more experienced generals, but in relation to Dath's list.

It appears that this army list offers a really interesting blend of threats that each perform their jobs adequately with out been traditional killer-units or what may be considered more dangerous units, and I get the feeling that this blob of death where everything in the army can threaten a multitude of units offers an interesting new way to build lists rather than the builds were everything is specialized and focused (a increasing trend I have noticed not just on the net by the way, but in my local area too).

My question is, do you think this approach of spreading damage potential across different units could function for other armies as well as it does for marines? I ask this because it seems like the marines with their many generalist units are suited to the task. I suppose an example of this spreading of damage potential is fielding meltavets with democharges for MEQ killing too, or loading up on Wraithlords as they can fulfill a variety of roles in the same game.

Foldalot wrote:Considering how this thread has been hijacked a dozen times already I have no qualms about asking another off topic question, directed at you more experienced generals, but in relation to Dath's list.

It appears that this army list offers a really interesting blend of threats that each perform their jobs adequately with out been traditional killer-units or what may be considered more dangerous units, and I get the feeling that this blob of death where everything in the army can threaten a multitude of units offers an interesting new way to build lists rather than the builds were everything is specialized and focused (a increasing trend I have noticed not just on the net by the way, but in my local area too).

My question is, do you think this approach of spreading damage potential across different units could function for other armies as well as it does for marines? I ask this because it seems like the marines with their many generalist units are suited to the task. I suppose an example of this spreading of damage potential is fielding meltavets with democharges for MEQ killing too, or loading up on Wraithlords as they can fulfill a variety of roles in the same game.

A friend of mine refers to my lists as problems solvers. It's not the be-all, end-all of list building, just my style and let me say it might be no better than anyone elses. I try to include at least one thing that solves some problem on the battlefield whether it is an enemy unit I might face or a scenario I expect to see. The army as a whole should have a unit(s) that collectively can solve the problems I can expect to face in a game. I try and do the same thing for other armies, but the Marinies do it so well. They have a full force org chart to draw from. Good units in each slot. I've made good chaos lists, but nothing that solves all the problems marines can. Chaos is just missing something in the FA slots, IMO. Nothing too expensive and something that can fire long range weapons would be nice(hello attack bikes). I've got an Eldar list that can do it at 1500pts a little bit, but going up in points it starts to struggle (and you are right it has 3 Wraithlords with heavy weapons and double hand flamers). I've got a dozen guard lists and I'm confident I can get the guard to become problem solvers. The only problem I haven't solved is what to do with a rampaging Bloodthirster. Darkwyn's Ard Boyz HQ loadout gave me a good starting point and I'm going to try that. Then the problem of a rampaging Bloodthirster with Fateweaver on the table is another matter and I don't think I'll be able to solve that problem with guard and keep the list at under 2000pts.

I would just like to point out that I have seen lots of army lists that rely on low ap weaponry to do the job, almost to the exclusion of anything else. I have tended to go more for saturation of fire to deal with low armor save targets instead of low ap weapons. Don't get me wrong, low ap weapons have their place and I would still take a few as they can solve some problems, but if I wanted to take out a low armor save unit I would tend to go for something that can put 10-12 armor saves on the unit and wait for the dice to do their magic. Yes I know termies taking 12 saves will miss 2 on average, but that's an average and failing 2 saves out of 12 is the average of the extrememes, not always what the roll is going to be. This tactic allows me to not worry as much about my opponent in cover or if they have an invulnerable save. Some units, like Pathfinders, will just be placed on the board in such a way that getting a lot of armor saves on them won't happen with regularity. For that problem you have the T-fire.

Eidolon wrote:I wanna know what that eldar guy who placed second was running.

Eldrad
2 units of 6 fire dragons in W.serpent with ML
1 unit of 5 fire dragons in W.seperent with ML
5-6 units of 5 dire avengers in W.serpents with a mix of ML and BL
3 Fire Prisms

DarthDiggler wrote: I try and do the same thing for other armies, but the Marinies do it so well. They have a full force org chart to draw from. Good units in each slot. I've made good chaos lists, but nothing that solves all the problems marines can. Chaos is just missing something in the FA slots, IMO. Nothing too expensive and something that can fire long range weapons would be nice(hello attack bikes). I've got an Eldar list that can do it at 1500pts a little bit, but going up in points it starts to struggle (and you are right it has 3 Wraithlords with heavy weapons and double hand flamers). I've got a dozen guard lists and I'm confident I can get the guard to become problem solvers. The only problem I haven't solved is what to do with a rampaging Bloodthirster. Darkwyn's Ard Boyz HQ loadout gave me a good starting point and I'm going to try that. Then the problem of a rampaging Bloodthirster with Fateweaver on the table is another matter and I don't think I'll be able to solve that problem with guard and keep the list at under 2000pts.

Oh buddy guard does it alot better, I am surprise you found away to do it with marines, I never considered combat squads.