Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As not to completely derail this thread, I am going to take put this conversation on the back burned a bit and call for a cease fire.
Dropping a very deep thing like that on a casual Monday morning was maybe bad form on my part.

What can I say? I observe and report. Not picking fights, just calling things how I see them. I am human, too. I am just as prone to err and asshatery (the act of wearing one's ass as a hat) as anyone else. And as I stated before, I cannot fully describe my thoughts to my audience due to the fact that I am limited by what my fingers type and how you interpret that...

That being said, I hope all of our participants are having fun! Now, let us leave left field and move a little closer to being on topic:
What do you think the practical application of rituals in NeoPaganism has in respect to casting spells and manipulating mental energy? I have heard some relate it to prayer. Others claim it is the Law of Attraction. Or very cool self help exercises. I am very interested in this topic as I have never been able to wrap my head around rituals in the modern day.

Oh, not trying to pick fights or anything. I'm just sort of thinking out loud.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Good and evil/right and wrong in Taoism seem to be more closely associated with wisdom/foolishness (wisdom being knowledge of the Tao, which remains pretty separate from knowledge in the normal sense).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Oh, not trying to pick fights or anything. I'm just sort of thinking out loud.

LOL! Same here... Honestly, I don't really know where I am going with this until I get there and re-read 5 pages and go "Oh..."

I just don't want the convo to get stale from back-and-forth-ing... It is the number one cause of Religion Thread Deaths on Dakka.

And I am not done with this topic yet... Truly unbiased informative understanding... This thread shows promise...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess what I should do is ask the audience what they would like to talk about:

Current conversation

Rituals and Spell Casting

Other

Rituals provide a structure for action and thought.

Religious rituals provide a structure for emotional focus and buildup, for a shared intention and worship. In the context of my religious practice, they allow us as a group (or occasionally as individuals) to meditate, to reflect on the holy day, what it meant to our ancestors and means to us. To acknowledge and honor the Gods, Nature Spirits, and Ancestors/Honored Dead, to make offerings and/or sacrifices to the Gods, and to ask/pray for positive outcomes from them.

To my understanding Ceremonial Magic/k also uses rituals, but primarily as a focus for personal will or drawing power from the universe (or specific sources? I’m not an expert) to effect changes in the world.

As I understand it, the big difference between prayer and Magic/k is that prayer asks the God/s for something, but by asking through them, you allow the divine to choose the best way (and whether) to grant the request. If it is better for the request not to be granted, or if the specific thing you are asking for turns out not to be in your (or the subject’s) best interest, the God/s adjust for that. With Magic/k, you are attempting to directly effect a specific change, which might have unintended and/or unforeseeable consequences. Note that this is not intended to be condemnatory, but is merely my (limited) understanding.

It sounds like you are talking about witchcraft. (No monty python joke intended)

GG

They are. And?

As a person who has a pretty rough general knowledge of (i.e. has read a few books on) Wiccan practice, I have a general question.

Is there really more to it than simply impressing goth chicks?

/halfLOL

Has Wicca had the same "reinventing" process as Druidism did? By this I mean that the Druids we see and their rituals are based on what was recreated in the 18th Century. None of the lore was written down, so it had to be recreated, or to be harsh, made up (I don't mean that in a mocking way). It's based on what we think it would or should of been, so I find it very hard to feel anything when it comes to spells.

As much as it pains me to say it, especially as I loath the RC church, the rituals connected to it seem to carry more weight as they've been passed down over hundreds of years. You only have to see a heavy duty bannishing in Supernatural and it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

@Wolfstan - Some Wiccan rituals were preserved in situ in some rural Irish communities.

Mannahnin wrote:Rituals provide a structure for action and thought.

Yeah, they are good for when someone in your party fails a their death saving throw.

But yes, is the short answer.

Wolfstan wrote:Has Wicca had the same "reinventing" process as Druidism did?

Pretty much, yeah. Much like pow-wows are associated with Native Americans but are are really a modern invention. If you go back 200 years there was no such thing but here we are today.

Albatross wrote:Is there really more to it than simply impressing goth chicks?

Now that made me spit out my cuppa laughing!

You don't need to be a pagan to practise what most people consider 'magic'. My partner is christian (and proud of it) but is also a healer, this is how we got together as she healed my knee which according to my doctor was arthritic. I don't know how she did it but I've not had a problem since (just under 2 years now!).

Another thing worth noting is that most 'witches' were just herbalists keeping alive traditions that had been handed down through the generations.

Mick

@Mick A - I know what you mean, mate. I'm considering wrapping my laptop in Tesco carrier-bags (other carrier bags are available ), because I'm always drinking tea whilst browsing this site .

Another thing worth noting is that most 'witches' were just herbalists keeping alive traditions that had been handed down through the generations.

True. Such practice is part of our national heritage - it should be taught in schools, historically if not practically.

GG- Witchcraft is a pretty broad term. Are you talking about the classic negative definitions, or the more modern Neopagans who use the term?

Folks might want to check out some of the links and definitions I posted before.

Albatross, Wolfstan- Wicca is pretty much the standout Neopagan religion. It was created in the 20th century, out of a combination of elements, including the writings of Margaret Murray and Robert Graves, and ceremonial magickal traditions. The founders originally claimed that it was handed down surviving lineages from antiquity, but those claims have basically been debunked (ref. Aidan Kelly’s Crafting the Art of Magic, though that’s not 100% accurate either). Trying to borrow authority by claiming antiquity is (to my understanding) a pretty common thing when a new religion starts. Many practitioners and new initiates continued to believe that Wicca actually was of ancient origin up at least through the 70s and 80s. My mother was initiated into such a group in the 60s, and didn’t really find out they weren’t practicing authentic Paleopagan Irish traditions for some years.

Albatross, there is still some debate about what, if any, folk traditional practices exist in any part of Europe. To the best of my knowledge most of them were stamped out centuries ago, at least any that constituted a real organized religious practice; not counting small folk magics/superstitions that weren’t really competition for the dominant Judeo-Christian religions. That said, there are some intriguing mentions of what appear to be Paleopagan/semi-Druidic practices extant in Lithuania up until the Soviet Union took over in the early 20th century, and there are supposed to be some written records thereof in some Russion institutions.

In the late 70s/early 80s, Isaac Bonewits and some friends got the idea of doing more real research into authentic Paleopagan practices, and eventually decided to go ahead and make a new religious group out of it, and that’s how Ar nDroicht Fein started. My mother joined that in the 80s, then the rest of our family later (my dad was more agnostic, and mom didn’t indoctrinate us as kids- we got to choose whether we wanted to participate).

Wolfstan, I think the Druid groups you’re talking about are what Bonewits classifies as Mesopagan Druids- their practices informed largely by fraternal orders, 18th century romantic ideas about Noble Savages, bad archeology (and stuff made up by guys like Iolo Morganwg), and monotheism. Modern Neopagan ones are consciously aware that they’re starting something NEW, though they often try to do some research to understand as much as we can about the authentic Paleopagan practices, albeit working with pretty limited resources. There’s also the more rigorous Celtic Reconstructionists, who are usually a bit stricter on their scholarly research.

Mannahnin wrote:GG- Witchcraft is a pretty broad term. Are you talking about the classic negative definitions, or the more modern Neopagans who use the term?

Well I guess I'm refereing to the occult practice. I'm not an expert on this stuff at all, but when you start talking about using magic, beyond the David Copperfield variety, it sounds like your getting into Voodoo/witchdoctor/spiritualism a.k.a witchcraft. And of course I'm not talking about flying around on broomsticks.

GG

In the late 70s/early 80s, Isaac Bonewits and some friends got the idea of doing more real research into authentic Paleopagan practices, and eventually decided to go ahead and make a new religious group out of it, and that’s how Ar nDroicht Fein started. My mother joined that in the 80s, then the rest of our family later (my dad was more agnostic, and mom didn’t indoctrinate us as kids- we got to choose whether we wanted to participate).

Bonewits apparently considered 'early Wicca' to be genuinely Paleopagan though, didn't he? How is his reconstruction any different to any other? None of it is 'authentic' - there's a lot of over-romanticism concerning all things Irish across 'The Pond' from what I've observed.
Yes, there are some folk traditions that survive in the British Isles (and by extension the USA/Canada/The Antipodes) - mainly related to folk song and traditional community practice. But religions? Nope.

My necklace cord is broken at the moment, but I do usually wear a Thor hammer and symbol that represents Odin around my neck. If there are gods, I want mine to be of the Nordic variety

I would have thought that Thor's hammer would represent Thor...

Right over the top I'm afraid. Isn't that what I said? Thor hammer for Thor and a symbol for Odin?

In my hurry I misread it as "I do usually wear a Thor hammer a symbol that represents Odin".

No worries, had to double check to make sure I wasn't spouting gibberish (like I just did and had to edit! )

The day someone can actually prove that any of that witchcraft malarkey actually works is the day i will believe in it.

I think all of it is absolute bollocks. Horoscopes, palm reading, witchcraft, its just stuff that people "do" for a hobby or something they find fun. I like reading comic books but i grew out of thinking i could stick to walls and fly.

I have found it is generally something that goths and greebos like to say they do because it sounds kinda cool. But seriously, magic?! Youve gotta be kidding me..

You seem to be combining New Age and Wicca into one bowl, but I understand what you mean.

mattyrm wrote:The day someone can actually prove that any of that witchcraft malarkey actually works is the day i will believe in it.

I think all of it is absolute bollocks. Horoscopes, palm reading, witchcraft, its just stuff that people "do" for a hobby or something they find fun. I like reading comic books but i grew out of thinking i could stick to walls and fly.

I have found it is generally something that goths and greebos like to say they do because it sounds kinda cool. But seriously, magic?! Youve gotta be kidding me..

And yet most of the world believe in miracle workers and spirits and powers and humans walking on water and transmuting water to wine and coming back from the dead.

Here's food for thought. The human being is made of 70(sih)% water, the moon can make entire seas rise and fall shifting millions of tons of ocean and yet we currently don't understand how exactly it affects a person, yet you talk to taxi drivers, casualty hospital workers and The Samaritans and they will all tell you busiest nights are always on a full moon.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth and all that jazz.

I have always been sympathetic to older faiths since there was much about them in terms of coexisting with the envirionment rather than conquering it. I don't really get the cherry-picking that goes on with 'neopagans' or whatever they are called, who basically create a religious system that is the most convenient and justifies what they want.

Personally, The Morrigan always appealled...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Here's food for thought. The human being is made of 70(sih)% water, the moon can make entire seas rise and fall shifting millions of tons of ocean and yet we currently don't understand how exactly it affects a person, yet you talk to taxi drivers, casualty hospital workers and The Samaritans and they will all tell you busiest nights are always on a full moon.

An exboss of mine had a calendar with the moon phases. He used to track "incidents" and the closer we got to te full moon the more "incidents" happened. He could tell it was a full moon just by the increase of human "crazyness"

GG

Albatross wrote:

In the late 70s/early 80s, Isaac Bonewits and some friends got the idea of doing more real research into authentic Paleopagan practices, and eventually decided to go ahead and make a new religious group out of it, and that’s how Ar nDroicht Fein started. My mother joined that in the 80s, then the rest of our family later (my dad was more agnostic, and mom didn’t indoctrinate us as kids- we got to choose whether we wanted to participate).

Bonewits apparently considered 'early Wicca' to be genuinely Paleopagan though, didn't he? How is his reconstruction any different to any other? None of it is 'authentic' - there's a lot of over-romanticism concerning all things Irish across 'The Pond' from what I've observed.
Yes, there are some folk traditions that survive in the British Isles (and by extension the USA/Canada/The Antipodes) - mainly related to folk song and traditional community practice. But religions? Nope.

No, to the best of my knowledge he did not and does not. As you’ve noted, there are no documented surviving “authentic” traditions. No Paleopagan religions handed down in secrecy in Europe surviving to this day.

Neopagans are trying to create and participate in modern, relevant forms of worship and community which resonate with and reference ancient and meaningful (at least to them) concepts and deities, sometimes (but not exclusively by any means) connected to their own heritage. Part of the point of the Paleopagan, Neopagan, and Mesopagan classifications is to write accurately and honestly about the differences.

While there are few clear boundaries or easy divisions between Neopaganism and Pagan Reconstructionism, basically the point of Reconstructionism is to reference and research real archeological and historical data, and work from that as best as you can, with as little invention (or importation from other cultures) as you can manage. Obviously you can’t get away from some invention, as there is not enough surviving data to practice a religion just based on what we can dig up. Here are a couple more links.

http://www.paganachd.com/faq/basic.html#whatbelieved
http://www.paganachd.com/faq/basic.html#whichauthorsbelieve

How do you pick which authors to believe?

There are two approaches. One is to find well-read, experienced and knowledgeable people to recommend books to you. In order for this to work, they must be people you trust to make correct judgments between good and bad research. CR folk often debate the validity and accuracy of information presented in books. Usually an eventual consensus judgment emerges about the author or book.

The second approach is a difficult but very personally rewarding learning process of developing that discerning judgment yourself. This involves critical thinking and the ability to discern the difference between fantasy and reality, solid attributed research and wishful thinking. It’s useful to go through the bibliography of any book you are looking at. Check out who is writing the books the author references. If most of the books in the bibliography are printed by occult and Pagan presses, chances are you’re better off looking at a different source. However, if a book or article is published by an academic press — affiliated with a university or other academic institution — you’re more likely to find useful and accurate information.

A crucial point in evaluating any book is whether the author is writing within their own field of expertise. For instance, someone with an advanced degree in archaeology, but no training in the Celtic languages, might be invaluable in terms of understanding sacred sites, but next to worthless in analyzing the mythology. A Ph.D. level zoologist might be a fine author on zoology, but know absolutely nothing about Celtic studies or comparative mythology. If an author cannot read the original language of the texts they are using as source materials, there are bound to be flaws in their interpretation. Similarly, if an author is trained in Classical and European mythology, but is not an expert on the Insular Celts, their conclusions will be filtered through a different lens and may easily result in a warped view.

We can not believe any authors who write on matters Celtic if what they are presenting is based on nothing more than their own opinion. Checking their references is absolutely necessary if you are uncertain as to the historical accuracy of their work. If you can’t find credible sources with some proof of their claims, it’s best to take the information with a grain of salt or to regard it as personal opinion, not fact. The most accurate sources on Celtic history and religion are going to be archaeologists, Celtic historians, and language experts publishing through academic presses, not occult and New Age authors. The books may be more difficult to wade through, but the rewards for doing so are immense.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalgrog wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:GG- Witchcraft is a pretty broad term. Are you talking about the classic negative definitions, or the more modern Neopagans who use the term?

Well I guess I'm refereing to the occult practice. I'm not an expert on this stuff at all, but when you start talking about using magic, beyond the David Copperfield variety, it sounds like your getting into Voodoo/witchdoctor/spiritualism a.k.a witchcraft. And of course I'm not talking about flying around on broomsticks.

GG

I think you're lumping a bunch of different things into one, there. Voudoun is a Mesopagan religion by Bonetiwits' classification, being a mix of Paleopagan African religious/spiritual practices with some Christian concepts mixed in. Witchdoctors are traditional tribal healers/medicine men. Spiritualism is something else entirely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism

In regards to the full moon I work with adults with challenging behaviour and have always found that there is increased agitation leading upto the full moon but the actual night of the full moon is normally the quietest if doing a nighshift...
Mick

Mannahnin wrote:
I think you're lumping a bunch of different things into one, there. Voudoun is a Mesopagan religion by Bonetiwits' classification, being a mix of Paleopagan African religious/spiritual practices with some Christian concepts mixed in. Witchdoctors are traditional tribal healers/medicine men. Spiritualism is something else entirely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism

I lumped them together because they essentially do the same thing. They commune with evil spirits. Christians call these spirits demons.

GG

This might be a good place for you to stop participating in the thread.

I was curious to see how long it would take for a member of a monotheistic religion to slip in the 'yes, all your ancestors/spirits/polytheistic gods are belong to us...and they're ebil'.

Counts as religious attack BTW.