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generalgrog wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
I think you're lumping a bunch of different things into one, there. Voudoun is a Mesopagan religion by Bonetiwits' classification, being a mix of Paleopagan African religious/spiritual practices with some Christian concepts mixed in. Witchdoctors are traditional tribal healers/medicine men. Spiritualism is something else entirely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism

I lumped them together because they essentially do the same thing. They commune with evil spirits. Christians call these spirits demons.

GG

Not necessarily. Demons represent the angels that fell with Lucifer. You'd have to show support for the claim that spirits are classed as demons.

And he should do it in a different thread.

I don't care about his religion's opinion on the subject. He can start a new thread for that.

Now hold on a second here. This is "the pagan thread", right? I was asked a direct question by mannahim. I gave an answer that was not aa religious attack(MSG). It was an explanation of what Christians believe and directly relates to paganism (as I understand the term anyway) . Remember the guy that got offended is the guy that asked the question, who happens to be a mod.

A bunch of you jumped all over frazz. And now mannahiem has basically just done the same thing frazz did. (although definately less threatening than frazz was, but still a threat was implied).

I was simply answering a question. If you don't want a question answered then don't ask it.

Anyway, I'll respond to frazz via pm.

GG

Mannahnin wrote:And he should do it in a different thread.

I don't care about his religion's opinion on the subject. He can start a new thread for that.

But if you don't put his chocolate in your peanut butter we won't get something...wonderful.

I'm sorry GG. As the human transport and cook for three dog owners, I am not authorized to respond to someone with a cat avatar...

I also thought that it was at least the Catholic dogma that any sort of spirit not in service of the Lord was evil (and communing with them witchcraft, a crime deserving execution).

GG- sorry to get snappish. I think I was partially overreacting due to previous hijackings of the thread with Christian content. You made a comment, I asked a clarifying question. You expanded on your initial comment, and I provided some clarifying data on several different groups and sets of practices. All good up to that point.

You then expressed a condemnatory judgment of the different groups I described, and lumped them together again, in direct contravention of what I had just told you, and without the courtesy of adding any sort of caveat or question. If you wanted to say “from my perspective it seems” or “what I have been taught as a Christian”, that’d be a bit different. But you seemed to really be adding nothing to the conversation except condemnation and contradiction. All heat and no light.

Don't know.

Modquisition on: Ok all you Commie Pinkoes, lets forcus this back on those hippy tree hugging Pagans.

Orke- There are multiple places in the Bible where it condemns witchcraft, divination, sorcery, or other occult practices. Deuteronomy also has the lovely passage: “3 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles* in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places.”

*translated as “groves” in the KJV.

I tried...

Sorry Fraz, I was trying to be peaceable by ceding the idea that it's okay to post about Christian takes on Paganism.

That said, maybe it's better that we don't so as to avoid conflict, as you just tried to remind us.

The entire problem is centered around mannys sensitivity on the issue. I, nor orke said anything particularly offensive. It's just that it's obvious that manny is a bit touchy about this subject. I don't mind not commenting on the subject because I don't take pleasure in needling someone. So for mannys sake I'll not comment anymore on this thread.

GG

Back to Wiccans, witchcraft and wizardry- what, if any, text are sacred to them? What would someone curious about their beliefs read? I was very much enjoying the debate about how much of the neopagan movement was new, and how much was historically accurate.

Wiccans typically (but I’m not sure if this is universal) use a book, often called a Book of Shadows, as a religious journal, ritual / spell record, and meditative resource. It would have notes, prayers, spells, chants, songs and/or religious poetry in it. In the original British traditions (starting with Gardner) this would be hand-copied from your initiating Priest or Priestess, though it was expected that you would add things that work for you, or new things you invent, and might subtract things which did not work for you.

Neopagan religions generally don’t have holy books, per se, as we don’t have ancient sacred texts passed down from history, sadly. There are lots of modern books on the subject, though. And some important historical texts. Carmina Gadelica, for example, is a great collection of historic Scottish folk lore, songs, charms, prayers, hymns and incantations, compiled in Scotland between 1855 and 1910. An English language one-volume version was published in 1992.

There are great reading lists at the bottoms of the following two pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Reconstructionist_Paganism#Further_reading
http://danagrove.org/what_a_druid_needs_to_know.html

Gitzbitah wrote:Back to Wiccans, witchcraft and wizardry- what, if any, text are sacred to them? What would someone curious about their beliefs read? I was very much enjoying the debate about how much of the neopagan movement was new, and how much was historically accurate.

Generally speaking, there aren't any universally sacred texts to read. For introductory books, Scott Cunningham, Raymond Buckland, and Starhawk are three decent authors to look for; Silver RavenWolf is okay if you want to go the 'trendy' route (gag). For the Asatru-inclined, the Poetic and Prose Eddas are extremely defining historical Norse reads.

As for books in general, if you look closely at the authors I'd recommend anything written by a member of the ATC, the Aquarian Tabernacle Church. They get pretty detailed and far away from the fluffy, trendy 'Cast A Spell 101' books and more into the actual theology and religion of paganism.

Mannahnin wrote:I think I was partially overreacting due to previous hijackings of the thread with Christian content.

In defense of posts made by myself and others, earlier in this thread, we only made those posts because of critiques and false statements made by several others. Just because the thread isn't specifically about Christianity doesn't mean you can post unrepresentative information, false facts or assaults against it with impunity. And you will notice some of us, myself included, did call for PM conversations to resolve the issues because they weren't related to the thread.

And I appreciate that JEB. I didn't call anyone out at that time, because I'm generally comfortable with digressions, and it seemed like a pretty reasonable discussion.

At the end of the day, GG implied that pagans communed with evil spirits - he knew exactly what he was doing. Total flamebait, IMO.

@Mannahin

Isaac Bonewits, the influential Neo-druid, has claimed that early Wicca (at a time when it was still called "Witchcraft") was in fact a Meso-Pagan path.

I found this on Wiki, dunno how true it is - no citation!

Just out of interest, do you have any interest in Ogham?

Albatross wrote:At the end of the day, GG implied that pagans communed with evil spirits - he knew exactly what he was doing. Total flamebait, IMO.

That may be true. But Modquisition is on... I say live and let live.

Besides, it does not bother me that some random person on the net thinks the spirits of my Mother and Grandfather are evil. I know that they are not, and that is enough to me...

Albatross wrote:Just out of interest, do you have any interest in Ogham?

I am interested, too. I know they are characters that are used in divination.

Albatross wrote:At the end of the day, GG implied that pagans communed with evil spirits - he knew exactly what he was doing. Total flamebait, IMO.

You know what's really bad? I once heard someone claim gods don't exist at all!

@Mannahin

Isaac Bonewits, the influential Neo-druid, has claimed that early Wicca (at a time when it was still called "Witchcraft") was in fact a Meso-Pagan path.

I found this on Wiki, dunno how true it is - no citation!

It sounds like your typical Salem-era "witchcraft" would fit under meso-paganism; traits of older religions/customs surviving into a predominantly Christian time.

I wouldn't say that was "Wicca", but the I suppose the Wiccans might...

You know what's really bad? I once heard someone claim gods don't exist at all!

Now what sort of arsehole would go and do a thing like that?

tblock1984 wrote:

Albatross wrote:Just out of interest, do you have any interest in Ogham?

I am interested, too. I know they are characters that are used in divination.

I've done a bit of study on it. It's been a bloody long time since I've looked at it.

It was designed to be carved into sticks, which were indeed used for divination. It uses basically hash marks: / \ - :to represent letters, words, ideas, etc.

Now you've got me wanting to re-read the books I've got in my Library on it!

Candroth wrote:

tblock1984 wrote:

Albatross wrote:Just out of interest, do you have any interest in Ogham?

I am interested, too. I know they are characters that are used in divination.

I've done a bit of study on it. It's been a bloody long time since I've looked at it.

It was designed to be carved into sticks, which were indeed used for divination. It uses basically hash marks: / \ - :to represent letters, words, ideas, etc.

Now you've got me wanting to re-read the books I've got in my Library on it!

QFT! I read a lot of stuff a few years ago about Druids. Sadly, most of that information has been replaced with 40K rules and 4chan memes...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did a quick Wiki search... Not much, actually, other than history.

Here are some pics of the Book of Ballymote (1390), the Auraicept na n-Éces explaining the ogham script.


This only makes me more curious...

It's a little disappointing that wiccans are using dogma?

endless wrote:It's a little disappointing that wiccans are using dogma?

First off, whom are you speaking to? The Quote button is your friend...
Second, is that sarcasm or an actual question? If not rhetorical, please establish some context.
Third, if that is snarky tongue in cheek comment, I would like to say that by that same logic, I find it a little disappointing that Christians are using dogma... And by that I mean WTF!?!?! That makes little to no sense.

Sorry, but when you get into a discussion like this on Dakka, please be specific... Do you really want to fill one of these out over an easily avoidable misunderstanding?


Well, DO YOU? Hurr durr hurr.... JK. But seriously, WTF?

OK, let's quote that...

endless wrote:
It's a little disappointing that wiccans are using dogma?

First off, whom are you speaking to? The Quote button is your friend...
Second, is that sarcasm or an actual question? If not rhetorical, please establish some context.
Third, if that is snarky tongue in cheek comment, I would like to say that by that same logic, I find it a little disappointing that Christians are using dogma... And by that I mean WTF!?!?! That makes little to no sense.

Sorry, but when you get into a discussion like this on Dakka, please be specific... Do you really want to fill one of these out over an easily avoidable misunderstanding?

I'm quoting you. What is your point? That the Wiccan religion has used older texts to justify itself? That Dakka has a status above all other forms of expression that would allow you to say what is right or what is wrong and is also is your forum, allowing you to make rules and to decry anyone who disagrees with you?
Invent away and justify yourself however you like, I say that an ideology which holds freedom as central to it's belief cannot restrict anyone and should never underestimate its' critics.

I did a bit of digging into the various areas of 'pagan' religion, along with demonology, spirituality, satanism, and various other fields a few years back. I found plenty to interest me, had a few experiences of my own(good and bad), and left it there.

Now as a War Studies student, I've also done a little research into the various programs the military has conducted into the fields of the paranormal. There's some interesting data and results to be found.

All of this has led me, as a natural agnostic, to the conclusion that there definitely is something else out there. I'm not necessarily referring to spiritual entities or the like, but I believe after examining all the evidence, that there is some sort of 'power' (for lack of a better word), that resides in us, and in the Universe itself. The various religions, cults and psychics all tap into this in some way or another, but are all just merely different aspects or approaches to what is ultimately the same thing.

That's the conclusion I've reached however. I do think though, that further study under appropriate conditions is definitely merited, and it could give valuable insights into ourselves and the rest of the universe.

Albatross wrote:@Mannahin

Isaac Bonewits, the influential Neo-druid, has claimed that early Wicca (at a time when it was still called "Witchcraft") was in fact a Meso-Pagan path.

I found this on Wiki, dunno how true it is - no citation!

Sounds like a distortion/misunderstanding of something he'd say. Uou can go right to the source on this, though:

http://www.neopagan.net/Witchcraft-Classifying.html

Albatross wrote:@Just out of interest, do you have any interest in Ogham?

Yes, Ogham is very interesting, though I have to confess I've made no proper study of it.

Wow, just... Wow...
I don't usually dissect posts from other users like this (unless it is Frazz ), but I think you misunderstood me... And I think I misunderstood you.

You made a statement and put a question mark at the end, and I was confused by this. On top of that, you left no context to the intent of your post. That led me to make an assumption: I thought you were replying to someone else with a rhetorical question (in which case I wanted to know who you were responding to, hence the quote comment) or being cheeky and unintentionally laying flame bait (which is not a good idea under Modquisition). Grammar and context are important on the internet, and it is against Dakka Dakka Forum Rules.

First, let me say I am sorry, endless, for jumping to conclusions.

endless wrote:OK, let's quote that...

endless wrote:
It's a little disappointing that wiccans are using dogma?

First off, whom are you speaking to? The Quote button is your friend...
Second, is that sarcasm or an actual question? If not rhetorical, please establish some context.
Third, if that is snarky tongue in cheek comment, I would like to say that by that same logic, I find it a little disappointing that Christians are using dogma... And by that I mean WTF!?!?! That makes little to no sense.

Sorry, but when you get into a discussion like this on Dakka, please be specific... Do you really want to fill one of these out over an easily avoidable misunderstanding?

I'm quoting you.

FYI... When you see the [quote] tag, you can change it to [quote=tblock1984] to place my user name in the top of the box and let everyone know who you quoting. This code is auto-generated when you click the Quote button at the top right of a person's post. That is what I meant.

endless wrote:What is your point? That the Wiccan religion has used older texts to justify itself?

We were discussing the Ogham... Pic was related. That is all.

endless wrote:That Dakka has a status above all other forms of expression that would allow you to say what is right or what is wrong and is also is your forum, allowing you to make rules and to decry anyone who disagrees with you?

...o.O? I never said I disagree with you. I said I didn't understand you post. Also, check a few pages back for my back and forth with Orkeosaurus to see what I have to say about subjective labels such as right/wrong and good/evil before you accuse me of being intolerant.
In fact, read my history and witness my nerdrage on account of other people labeling things they don't understand, either out of ignorance or intolerance.
Or just ask Frazzled. He can tell you stories of our epic battle over religious intolerance. My point is, you are really barking up the wrong tree.

Anywho, I digress...

endless wrote:Invent away and justify yourself however you like, I say that an ideology which holds freedom as central to it's belief cannot restrict anyone and should never underestimate its' critics.

I am not inventing. This forum has rules. I am making sure my thread doesn't get closed due to a violation of Dakka Dakka Forum Rule #1 under the scrutiny of Modquisition. It has nothing to do with you or your beliefs.

Ketara wrote:I did a bit of digging into the various areas of 'pagan' religion, along with demonology, spirituality, satanism, and various other fields a few years back. I found plenty to interest me, had a few experiences of my own(good and bad), and left it there.

Now as a War Studies student, I've also done a little research into the various programs the military has conducted into the fields of the paranormal. There's some interesting data and results to be found.

All of this has led me, as a natural agnostic, to the conclusion that there definitely is something else out there. I'm not necessarily referring to spiritual entities or the like, but I believe after examining all the evidence, that there is some sort of 'power' (for lack of a better word), that resides in us, and in the Universe itself. The various religions, cults and psychics all tap into this in some way or another, but are all just merely different aspects or approaches to what is ultimately the same thing.

That's the conclusion I've reached however. I do think though, that further study under appropriate conditions is definitely merited, and it could give valuable insights into ourselves and the rest of the universe.

QFT That is what I was getting at earlier in the thread. I find it asinine that humanity fights over religion when I believe it is the same power with different names. The kicker is: I don't think this entity or power cares. IMHO, it is very indifferent to what we do, like a programmer writing code. YMMV. But for me: TheoLOL.

Modquisition on:

Politely, lets all move on. I think there's been some miscommunication in the last few posts. We have to remember this is the internet and you should naturally assume things are going to be misinterpreted, so everyone take a step back, count some coup, and start again.