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I think you are right.. it was bit of a stretch statement. What I Intended to say was that it's NOT necessarily healthy because people do become sex and porn addicts, and that starts from masturbation. They say drinking a little wine everyday is a good antioxidant, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily healthy due the danger of alcoholism.

Also the porn industry isn't a victimless industry. Many men are sex addicts due to porn, and many women that do porn are drug addicts themselves. No women grows up wanting to be a porn star or a prostitute. They only do it out of greed or necessity. Necessity being poor, drug addiction, or possibly even slavery(a.k.a. pimped)

Porn is destructive.

GG

Might want to look into the Porn Industry again matey. A lot has changed....

generalgrog wrote:I think you are right.. it was bit of a stretch statement. What I Intended to say was that it's NOT necessarily healthy because people do become sex and porn addicts, and that starts from masturbation. They say drinking a little wine everyday is a good antioxidant, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily healthy due the danger of alcoholism.

Many health activities are dangerous when taken to excess especially when they are done to the neglect of other parts of your life, dieting too much is bad for you, too much exercise is bad for you.

...people do become sex and porn addicts, and that starts from masturbation.

You're going to have to back that up because common sense and research would indicate otherwise.

They only do it out of greed or necessity. Necessity being poor, drug addiction, or possibly even slavery(a.k.a. pimped)

The porn industry isn't a nice one but you undermine your position by conflating prostitution with the pornographic film industry as though they are one and the same.

generalgrog wrote:
Also the porn industry isn't a victimless industry. Many men are sex addicts due to porn, and many women that do porn are drug addicts themselves. No women grows up wanting to be a porn star or a prostitute. They only do it out of greed or necessity. Necessity being poor, drug addiction, or possibly even slavery(a.k.a. pimped)

Porn is destructive.

GG

Quotes please! Cite your sources when you say that many men are sex addicts.....if it's true there should be some widely published study about how men who watch porn are x% more likely to be addicted to sex. Where are the studies that show women who do porn are doing drugs out of porportion to their socio-economic class? You're making alot of claims here, and are giving us nothing to back up your claims.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3072021.stm

LordofHats wrote:

I'm still Zondervan certified for whatever that's worth

Would this be the same Zondervan that developed and publishes the NIV o.O

Yup In their training classes they tell you why the NIV is better than everything else, but the reasons are so horrible you can see right through their salesmanship. It's just not an accurate translation.

generalgrog wrote:It's real healthy when you become a sex or porn addict from it. Sex and porn addiction are real good for healthy marriages .


GG

Eh, enough has been commented on this, but don't believe all the rhetoric dude. I've been in your shoes. I see people with much happier open relationships than many christian marriages, and there may just be a reason for that.

generalgrog wrote:I think you are right.. it was bit of a stretch statement. What I Intended to say was that it's NOT necessarily healthy because people do become sex and porn addicts, and that starts from masturbation. They say drinking a little wine everyday is a good antioxidant, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily healthy due the danger of alcoholism.

Also the porn industry isn't a victimless industry. Many men are sex addicts due to porn, and many women that do porn are drug addicts themselves. No women grows up wanting to be a porn star or a prostitute. They only do it out of greed or necessity. Necessity being poor, drug addiction, or possibly even slavery(a.k.a. pimped)

Porn is destructive.

GG

Again, things are different than they used to be. Some women want to do porn/strip/whatever now because it gives them a sense of empowermet. As a rule, stating stuff you've heard from other christians as arguments will probably just lead to fail.

Mr Mystery wrote:Might want to look into the Porn Industry again matey. A lot has changed....

http://www.shelleylubben.com/porn-stars-speak-out-stds-drugs-and-abuse-0

GG

generalgrog wrote:I think you are right.. it was bit of a stretch statement. What I Intended to say was that it's NOT necessarily healthy because people do become sex and porn addicts, and that starts from masturbation.

I see where you're coming from, but it's worthwhile remembering that just because something is the starting-point of something worse, does not necessarily imply causality. After all, though people who have committed murder may have played violent video games in their youth, that does not then mean that violent video games increase the chance that people who play them will commit murder.

What if they played tabletop war games where they slaughtered their enemies by the thousands?

Ahtman wrote:What if they played tabletop war games where they slaughtered their enemies by the thousands?

Well, sir, that either leads to intense piety or out-and-out psychopathy in my experience.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Yup In their training classes they tell you why the NIV is better than everything else, but the reasons are so horrible you can see right through their salesmanship. It's just not an accurate translation.

Doesn't it depend on which text-type you're using? (Excluding of course that NIV is dynamic while KJV is literal, unless that's what you mean XD)

Personally I wouldn't call it accurate. I'd say more accurate, but only based on flaws with the textus receptus and that the Alexandria type is older than the Byzantine type. Only speaking of NT of course. I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that there's a good translation of the OT except for the NWT the Witnesses put out, and I've heard other things about that one.

The porn industry isn't a nice one but you undermine your position by conflating prostitution with the pornographic film industry as though they are one and the same.

They're not one and the same, but I have always found it ironic (and again I love irony) that it's legally okay for a woman to sell her body so long as a camera is present to record it

LordofHats wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

The porn industry isn't a nice one but you undermine your position by conflating prostitution with the pornographic film industry as though they are one and the same.

They're not one and the same, but I have always found it ironic (and again I love irony) that it's legally okay for a woman to sell her body so long as a camera is present to record it

That line is so fine it is almost invisible to the naked eye.

generalgrog wrote:I think you are right.. it was bit of a stretch statement. What I Intended to say was that it's NOT necessarily healthy because people do become sex and porn addicts, and that starts from masturbation. They say drinking a little wine everyday is a good antioxidant, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily healthy due the danger of alcoholism.

Also the porn industry isn't a victimless industry. Many men are sex addicts due to porn, and many women that do porn are drug addicts themselves. No women grows up wanting to be a porn star or a prostitute. They only do it out of greed or necessity. Necessity being poor, drug addiction, or possibly even slavery(a.k.a. pimped)

Porn is destructive.

GG

I dunno about that... I watch porn, my friends watch porn, my buddies watch porn, everybody I know watches it. And...they are normal, functional members of society. Are they sex addicts? by your defintiion, every human who has had sex is.

though true that some women are drug addicted in the porn industry, so are some women in accounting, day care, etc. Does that mean those businesses are bad too? most women in porn are there due to choice.

You forget that humanity in general is extremely horny. Why fight what is one of our basest and natural drives?

Brother-Thunder wrote:

generalgrog wrote:I think you are right.. it was bit of a stretch statement. What I Intended to say was that it's NOT necessarily healthy because people do become sex and porn addicts, and that starts from masturbation. They say drinking a little wine everyday is a good antioxidant, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily healthy due the danger of alcoholism.

Also the porn industry isn't a victimless industry. Many men are sex addicts due to porn, and many women that do porn are drug addicts themselves. No women grows up wanting to be a porn star or a prostitute. They only do it out of greed or necessity. Necessity being poor, drug addiction, or possibly even slavery(a.k.a. pimped)

Porn is destructive.

GG

I dunno about that... I watch porn, my friends watch porn, my buddies watch porn, everybody I know watches it. And...they are normal, functional members of society. Are they sex addicts? by your defintiion, every human who has had sex is.

though true that some women are drug addicted in the porn industry, so are some women in accounting, day care, etc. Does that mean those businesses are bad too? most women in porn are there due to choice.

You forget that humanity in general is extremely horny. Why fight what is one of our basest and natural drives?

Hmm nice try..I never said watching porn or masterbating automatically = sex addiction. I did imply that it can most certaintly lead to it.

Are 90% of women in day care using drugs? See link for more info. http://www.shelleylubben.com/porn-stars-speak-out-stds-drugs-and-abuse-0

Next time you masturbate to porn just remember that these women are exploited. Porn is evil.

GG

generalgrog wrote:I think you are right.. it was bit of a stretch statement. What I Intended to say was that it's NOT necessarily healthy because people do become sex and porn addicts, and that starts from masturbation. They say drinking a little wine everyday is a good antioxidant, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily healthy due the danger of alcoholism.

No, sorry. If sex and alcoholism are unhealthy due to the danger of addiction (which is not itself intrinsically unhealthy), then the danger begins at the desire to drink and have sex. Seeing as one of these is unarguably natural, procreation being necessary for the propagation of the species, it is is impossible to argue as though the presence of danger means that a thing should be avoided.

generalgrog wrote:
Also the porn industry isn't a victimless industry. Many men are sex addicts due to porn, and many women that do porn are drug addicts themselves. No women grows up wanting to be a porn star or a prostitute. They only do it out of greed or necessity. Necessity being poor, drug addiction, or possibly even slavery(a.k.a. pimped)

Porn is destructive.

GG

Really? No woman, or man (there are male porn stars you know), grows up wanting to be a porn star? No one? Not a single person?

You have no evidence for that. Stop presuming that you're emotional response to a thing is indicative of all emotional responses to the same thing.


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Orlanth wrote:
What is the point in discussing something when the person you are arguing with denies what they wrote in plain text.
I will not bother quoting your commentary in context as it would involve more than a few lines of text and you would just deny it anyway, then try to get picky.

If you need context then it wasn't written in 'plain text'. Try again.

I never said that religious people are stupid. I said that was stupid to act only because a very old book (any very old book, I was not specific) says something. If you are going to base your argumenative position on your imagination, then I can see how it would be frustrating to be confronted with reality.

Stop drawing inferences, you are very, very bad at it.

Orlanth wrote:
No point talking to you, but for the record:
Some who know me face to face put great store in my analytical talents, so I must be far better at inferences than you think. The how, who, why and where of this is my concern, feel free not to believe me, it wont matter, their opinions weigh more than yours.

I feel very sorry for them, because you are not very good at analysis. Analytical talent requires that one be able to separate himself from the information he is reviewing, and you are apparently incapable of such a thing.

Maybe its simply the way you engage with religion that prevents you from objectively considering anything of even oblique association, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that your 'style' as regards religious information shouldn't be generalized to all information.

generalgrog wrote: No women grows up wanting to be a porn star or a prostitute. They only do it out of greed or necessity. Necessity being poor, drug addiction, or possibly even slavery(a.k.a. pimped)

GG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasha_Grey

Sasha had a interview once where she talked about how much she wanted to be in porn starting when she was 16... growing up in a very healthy middleclass home...

Just saying...

generalgrog wrote:
Next time you masturbate to porn just remember that these women are exploited. Porn is evil.

That's why I like it, if I'm being perfectly honest.

Sasha is definitely an interesting example. The artist Zak Smith wrote an excellent piece in his book We Did Porn reacting to her appearance on Tyra Banks' television show, and the myriad hypocrisies and dishonesties of the arguments made by Tyra, her other "porn star" guest, and her guest doctor.

Let me see if I can find the chapter excerpt....

Aha! Found it. The Rumpus.net presented this excerpt from his book as an article. Warning! NSFW!

Really good but NSFW article here

That being said, there is still a lot wrong with the porn industry, and there are a lot of unhealthy and damaged people in it. Whether they are unhappy, unhealthy, and damaged before they ever get involved and are drawn toit in part because of their difficulties functioning in other jobs is another question.

The existence of seemingly well-adjusted people like Sasha Grey, Zak Smith, Kimberly Kane, etc. Makes it a bit of a trickier question.

Its almost as though complicated issues require complicates questions and complicated answers.

Perhaps EEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLL isn't the most effective way of dealing with such maters.

Edit: Great essay Mannahinn, thanks for that.

Definitely an interesting article to read.

generalgrog wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

generalgrog wrote:I think you are right.. it was bit of a stretch statement. What I Intended to say was that it's NOT necessarily healthy because people do become sex and porn addicts, and that starts from masturbation. They say drinking a little wine everyday is a good antioxidant, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily healthy due the danger of alcoholism.

Also the porn industry isn't a victimless industry. Many men are sex addicts due to porn, and many women that do porn are drug addicts themselves. No women grows up wanting to be a porn star or a prostitute. They only do it out of greed or necessity. Necessity being poor, drug addiction, or possibly even slavery(a.k.a. pimped)

Porn is destructive.

GG

I dunno about that... I watch porn, my friends watch porn, my buddies watch porn, everybody I know watches it. And...they are normal, functional members of society. Are they sex addicts? by your defintiion, every human who has had sex is.

though true that some women are drug addicted in the porn industry, so are some women in accounting, day care, etc. Does that mean those businesses are bad too? most women in porn are there due to choice.

You forget that humanity in general is extremely horny. Why fight what is one of our basest and natural drives?

Hmm nice try..I never said watching porn or masterbating automatically = sex addiction. I did imply that it can most certaintly lead to it.

Are 90% of women in day care using drugs? See link for more info. http://www.shelleylubben.com/porn-stars-speak-out-stds-drugs-and-abuse-0

Next time you masturbate to porn just remember that these women are exploited. Porn is evil.

GG

nononono...

Watch ANY amatuer video, they did that stuff willingly. Also, without scientific study to confirm statistics, we have no idea what the numbers of abuse are.

also,They are walking into that studio, taking their clothes off, and doing dirty things of their own volition. There is very little exploitation there.

Albatross wrote:

generalgrog wrote:
Next time you masturbate to porn just remember that these women are exploited. Porn is evil.

That's why I like it, if I'm being perfectly honest.

I find this to be morally superior to pretending the industry isn't a completely negative carbuncle on the ass of humankind, to be perfectly honest.

Meh. I find that most people are far too caught up in their own ideas of morality to render such judgments.

After all, most of us eat sugar that was produced by people under pain of death.

dogma wrote:Meh. I find that most people are far too caught up in their own ideas of morality to render such judgments.

After all, most of us eat sugar that was produced by people under pain of death.

Pointing out bad behavior by others doesn't absolve your own.

Who's idea of morality should I be using, anyway, if not mine?

I'm pushing my way through, and it is rather interesting. I have to back up dogma here.....porn, like any other issue, is complex, and deserves more than a bumper sticker answer.

However, as a liberatarian, my answer is 'are the two adults willing? yes? ok, not the governments problem'. It doesn't matter what kind of weird kink it is, as long as the x number of people involved are perfectly alright with it. If you have a moral problem with it, then don't watch it, and don't support the industry with your time or money! It's an easy temporary solution, and you can talk to people all you want to convince that porn is evil.

But if any number of consenual adults wish to do any activity in the bedroom, and then choose to record themselves doing that activity and selling it? Why shouldn't they have the right to do that? How is their right to make money from that any different from my right to do commission paint work if I so choose? (Note: I suck at painting and would never do that) The only difference to my eye is that some people view the act of selling sex for money as evil and immoral, and wish to impose that view point on others.

ChrisWWII wrote:I'm pushing my way through, and it is rather interesting. I have to back up dogma here.....porn, like any other issue, is complex, and deserves more than a bumper sticker answer.

I don't think anyone has been really throwing around "bumper stickers" though, have they?

ChrisWWII wrote:However, as a liberatarian, my answer is 'are the two adults willing? yes? ok, not the governments problem'.

I don't think anyone has advocated that it be outlawed, either. I could be wrong. It's been said that it has a negative impact on society, but that's not quite the same thing.

Monster Rain wrote:
Pointing out bad behavior by others doesn't absolve your own.

Of course not, but the point was that we all regularly engage in acts that a morally dubious. Why are we therefore critical of morally dubious acts?

For example, the Cachaça I'm drinking right now was made by people in Brazil who are essentially slaves. In purchasing the delicious product of their labor, I am undoubtedly supporting the business model that ensures their position as quasi slaves. Perhaps a large enough number of purchases will extricate them from their position via economic growth, but that's really a matter left up to the children of the present producers.

I myself am not suppressing the Cachaça producers, but I am supporting those that do. Most people would probably not consider my choices to be morally bankrupt, but many would consider the use of porn to be so; despite an entirely equivalent relationship.

Why? Because porn corrupts All-American girls and Cachaça subjugates brown folk? Because sex is taboo and drinking isn't?

Monster Rain wrote:
Who's idea of morality should I be using, anyway, if not mine?

Well, everyone's. At least if you're going to make a pronouncement of evil, which is distinct from "something I don't like".

So then I could say that the company that makes your Beverage of Death() and the Porn Industry exploit people and generally make the world a less pleasant place.

From where I'm looking at this, it's not even about sexual taboos. It's about shady business practices.

Sure, but it isn't just my Beverage of Death or the porn industry. Its also the good folks over at Coca-Cola, Monsanto, and just about every other producer of consumer goods.

To put it another way, if you really feel that relationships of the relevant sort are destructive, then you don't have much of an excuse for being supportive of capitalism (insofar as evil is bad).

Be gone G-baby sock-puppet!



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Monster Rain wrote:
From where I'm looking at this, it's not even about sexual taboos. It's about shady business practices.

Define shady. Everyone knows that the porn industry is less than savory, though far more savory than it was in the past (Linda Lovelace had a hell of a life).

Similarly, we all know that Coca-Cola exploits their sugar producers, or we all should know, but we accept that as a natural feature of the system in which we live.

Hell, I imagine we're all guilty of exploiting weakness in the course of business; whether it be negotiating for a raise, or hiring beautiful stripper-secretaries.

Monster Rain wrote:

I don't think anyone has been really throwing around "bumper stickers" though, have they?

I don't think anyone has advocated that it be outlawed, either. I could be wrong. It's been said that it has a negative impact on society, but that's not quite the same thing.

GeneralGrog for one has been ending half his posts with 'Porn is evil' or some derivative thereof. I for one view that as a bumper sticker answer. And I wasn't alleging that anyone said it should be banned, I was just talking about my own personal views on the topic.
However, as far as 'negative impact' on society, I do have to say that I see no problem, and in fact it's a celebration of free speech, as far as I'm concerned. As long as there's no problem with the two people agreeing to do so, why is it a negative impact? There's no reason why a porn star, or porn producer can not be a contributing member of society. They pay their taxes, they provide a good in demand, and they contribute to the economy. I don't see a negative impact there.