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"Mr. Mystery", I think we're better off leaving personal arguments out of it.

But that is his argument. GG has used himself (rightly or wrongly) as the definition of Christianity for this thread.

His reasoning has been suspect, but I don't think he's ever defined a Christian as being someone who believes the exact same thing he does. In fact I believe he's openly stated that there are other Christians who believe differently.

@Mannahnin: thanks for the read. Interesting.

I guess Hitler saw himself as a Christian, he just did not really get the message.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@Mannahnin: thanks for the read. Interesting.

I guess Hitler saw himself as a Christian, he just did not really get the message.

Or current christians do not get the message and he did.

As was discovered already in the other thread, the only true qualifier to be a christian is to consider yourself one. He didn't just 'see himself' as christian, he was a christian. Simple as, really. Because no-one is definitively qualified to prove he was NOT a christian.

Viewing from the outside, IMO Hitler and company were not good followers of Jesus' teachings, even if many of them were indeed Christians.

@Ketara, we can debate what is a "Christian" all day, frankly I grew up Mormon and a lot of Christians would not consider me Christian although I worship Jesus Christ.

The message however is what Christ taught. The 2 great commandments were 1. love and worship God and 2. love your fellow man. Killing many people (Jews, Slavs, gays and crippled people) is against the 2nd great commandment.

Anyway, from what I read in your posts you seem to enjoy the value of argument, so you may feel the message is debatable. I guess I see the gospel message as being more literal.

Nice that we can agree to disagree without setting up concentration camps.

Mannahnin wrote:Viewing from the outside, IMO Hitler and company were not good followers of Jesus' teachings, even if many of them were indeed Christians.

If we take the 10 commandments as indicative of Jesus' teachings, then the only ones that were explicitly violated en mass were the 8th (false witness) and the 10th (do not covet thy neighbors property).

That isn't to say that 10 commandments are evil, or anything of that sort, but only that they're very open to interpretation.

Nazis is a group of people all with differing views, adolph hitler is one man who lead the nazi party

That being said his views are not always consistent and change over time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views

Hitler often associated atheism with Germany's communist enemy.[52] Hitler stated in a speech to the Stuttgart February 15, 1933: "Today they say that Christianity is in danger, that the Catholic faith is threatened. My reply to them is: for the time being, Christians and not international atheists are now standing at Germany’s fore. I am not merely talking about Christianity; I confess that I will never ally myself with the parties which aim to destroy Christianity. Fourteen years they have gone arm in arm with atheism. At no time was greater damage ever done to Christianity than in those years when the Christian parties ruled side by side with those who denied the very existence of God. Germany's entire cultural life was shattered and contaminated in this period. It shall be our task to burn out these manifestations of degeneracy in literature, theater, schools, and the press—that is, in our entire culture—and to eliminate the poison which has been permeating every facet of our lives for these past fourteen years."[53]

He wasnt necissarily Christian but he did beleive in God

Also, do you know who else breathed air and was a vertebrate? Hitler.

Mr Mystery wrote:BY JINGO I THINK I'VE CRACKED IT!

Generalgrog is a Christian.
Generalgrog is not a Nazi.
Therefore, the Nazis were not Christian.

That's essentially what you're saying. Of course give me sufficient time, and the patience to do so, and I'll find you a Christian that say's you're no such thing yourself.

Ah Religion....so much for bringin peace and succor!

And its excellent trolling posts like this about religion that make me so want to get rid of the OT.

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@The message however is what Christ taught. The 2 great commandments were 1. love and worship God and 2. love your neighbour (which could arguably be more limited than fellow man). Killing many people (Caananites, Assyrians, gays and anyone who pisses the Chosen People off) is against the 2nd great commandment.

Noticed a little typo there.

Even a cursory read through of the bible provides evidence not only of genocide (putting every man, woman and child to the sowrd becuase 'they' as a people were universally evil) but also purges (which included fatricide). It's not too much of a stretch to compare the purges of the unfaithful during the exodus to the purges under Stalin several thousand years later.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the ten commandments from the Old Testament, and derived from Judaism? If following them defines one as a Christian, then theoretically all Jews would be Christian, as the Old Testament was rather heavily ripped from the Torah.

Ketara wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the ten commandments from the Old Testament, and derived from Judaism? If following them defines one as a Christian, then theoretically all Jews would be Christian, as the Old Testament was rather heavily ripped from the Torah.

I believe acknowledging Jesus Christ is the more important part to a Christian, though I would assume they still have to follow the commandments. Whether this means the big #2, the medium #10 or the min #200+, I'm not sure.

Gibbsey wrote:
He wasnt necissarily Christian but he did beleive in God

Also, do you know who else breathed air and was a vertebrate? Hitler.

This is one of those times it is better to not trust Wikipedia because of how contentious the subject matter is. I'll go with the verified quotes from trusted historians that were used earlier in the thread in which Hitlers has called himself a Christian. There is a difference between not being a Christian and not being what a majority of people would think of as a good example of a Christian.

Ketara wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the ten commandments from the Old Testament, and derived from Judaism? If following them defines one as a Christian, then theoretically all Jews would be Christian, as the Old Testament was rather heavily ripped from the Torah.

I don't feel like explaining it in detail, but while the Ten Commandments are based on the OT they were also referenced quite frequently in the NT.

Below is a good, short list of the relevant passages from here.

The following passages in the New Testament confirm, either explicitly or by example, that Jesus Christ and the apostles viewed the Ten Commandments as a necessary part of Christian living.

First Commandment: Matthew 4:10; 22:37-38.

Second Commandment: 1 John 5:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 10:7, 14; Ephesians 5:5.

Third Commandment: Matthew 5:33-34; 7:21-23; Luke 11:2; 1 Timothy 6:1.

Fourth Commandment: Luke 4:16; Acts 13:14, 42, 44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:4, 9.

Fifth Commandment: Matthew 15:3-6; 19:17-19; Ephesians 6:2-3.

Sixth Commandment: Matthew 5:21-22; 19:17-18; Romans 13:9, Galatians 5:19-21; James 2:10-12.

Seventh Commandment: Matthew 5:27-28; 19:17-18; Romans 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 10:8; Ephesians 5:5; Galatians 5:19-21; James 3:10-12.

Eighth Commandment: Matthew 19:17-18; Romans 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

Ninth Commandment: Matthew 19:17-18; Romans 13:9; Colossians 3:9; Ephesians 4:25

Tenth Commandment: Luke 12:15; Romans 7:7; 13:9; Ephesians 5:3, 5.

dogma wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Viewing from the outside, IMO Hitler and company were not good followers of Jesus' teachings, even if many of them were indeed Christians.

If we take the 10 commandments as indicative of Jesus' teachings, then the only ones that were explicitly violated en mass were the 8th (false witness) and the 10th (do not covet thy neighbors property).

That isn't to say that 10 commandments are evil, or anything of that sort, but only that they're very open to interpretation.

Perhaps my memory is poor, but I associate the 10 Commandments much more with Moses than Jesus. Not to say that he didn't teach those too, but he talked about a lot of other stuff as well.

The passage quoted a couple of times earlier in the thread has Jesus saying "love god" and "love thy neighbor as thyself". The latter doesn't seem to accurately describe how the Nazis treated many of their neighbors; in Germany or outside of it.

Not unless they were extremely masochistic.

Mannahnin wrote:
Perhaps my memory is poor, but I associate the 10 Commandments much more with Moses than Jesus. Not to say that he didn't teach those too, but he talked about a lot of other stuff as well.

They are, but Jesus certainly preached in a manner that presumed all the commandments to be equivalent; whether that was a matter of orthodox propriety, or legitimate belief is an open question.

Mannahnin wrote:
The passage quoted a couple of times earlier in the thread has Jesus saying "love god" and "love thy neighbor as thyself". The latter doesn't seem to accurately describe how the Nazis treated many of their neighbors; in Germany or outside of it.

"And who is my neighbor?"" (Luke 10:29)

The generally accepted response from Matthew is that all who suffer are neighbors. However, "suffering" can be broadly interpreted. Are Aryan Germans suffering from the presence of Jews? Are Jews suffering as a result of being Jewish? These seem like absurd questions on their faces, but insofar as Christianity and good conduct are determined internally* they are still important.


*That is to say, all people are able to judge what is good. They cannot be mistaken, but many other people can disagree, and so act in opposition.

dogma wrote:

Ketara wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the ten commandments from the Old Testament, and derived from Judaism? If following them defines one as a Christian, then theoretically all Jews would be Christian, as the Old Testament was rather heavily ripped from the Torah.

I don't feel like explaining it in detail, but while the Ten Commandments are based on the OT they were also referenced quite frequently in the NT.

Below is a good, short list of the relevant passages from here.

The following passages in the New Testament confirm, either explicitly or by example, that Jesus Christ and the apostles viewed the Ten Commandments as a necessary part of Christian living.

First Commandment: Matthew 4:10; 22:37-38.

Second Commandment: 1 John 5:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 10:7, 14; Ephesians 5:5.

Third Commandment: Matthew 5:33-34; 7:21-23; Luke 11:2; 1 Timothy 6:1.

Fourth Commandment: Luke 4:16; Acts 13:14, 42, 44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:4, 9.

Fifth Commandment: Matthew 15:3-6; 19:17-19; Ephesians 6:2-3.

Sixth Commandment: Matthew 5:21-22; 19:17-18; Romans 13:9, Galatians 5:19-21; James 2:10-12.

Seventh Commandment: Matthew 5:27-28; 19:17-18; Romans 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 10:8; Ephesians 5:5; Galatians 5:19-21; James 3:10-12.

Eighth Commandment: Matthew 19:17-18; Romans 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

Ninth Commandment: Matthew 19:17-18; Romans 13:9; Colossians 3:9; Ephesians 4:25

Tenth Commandment: Luke 12:15; Romans 7:7; 13:9; Ephesians 5:3, 5.

I'm not debating that the commandments may have been repeated elsewhere. Rather, I'm intrigued by the concept that if you follow moral Rules X,Y, and Z, you are considered to be a christian.

Simply put, It was outlined earlier that one could not be a christian for violating certain criteria. Fair enough. But if you make it so that you are defined as a christian by following certain criteria, then surely that leads you into problems with people who are of other religions, but follow the same broad moral criteria being technically christian?

For example 'The message however is what Christ taught. The 2 great commandments were 1. love and worship God and 2. love your fellow man.'.

Say I'm Jewish and I love and worship God, and love my fellow man. Does this make me christian? I'm pretty sure Jesus never actually said anywhere, 'You must love and worship me specifically as the son of God/God himself at the same time/part of this holy trio thing'. That all came later, to my knowledge (although feel free to disprove me on that).

Mt 22:36 “[Jesus], which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, ’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

But there are many other religions who follow these precise teachings. So surely they cannot act as the sole criteria to determine faith?

Ketara wrote:But there are many other religions who follow these precise teachings. So surely they cannot act as the sole criteria to determine faith?

No, but I'd think that at least attempting to follow those two greatest commandments would be indicative of whether or not someone was even trying to be Christian.

Well, in this case, a Nazi Christian would have been able to love the lord, fulfilling the first criteria. And as Jews were untermensch, they wouldn't have counted as neighbours in their view. After all, would you consider a rat your neighbour?
So from their own perspective at least, it seems they could easily meet both requirements.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Actually, I wasn't including any media outlets giving this information. I was reffering to conversations I've had with Muslims, some of which I consider friends. I'm sure that some station (maybe not Al Jazeera but att least someone) or a Imam in a televised account would do their best to distance Osama from the wider Islamic religion. But the actual people that I've talked to didn't really try to outright deny Osama's status as a Muslim (a few supported his resistence to Western Ideals) but they universally felt that his actions only tarnished the Muslim faith and encouraged further attacks (and only made people favour Israel more, but that's a whole other issue that resulted in many passionate speechs on their part). Suffice to say, I really didn't try to bring the fellow up too much. I got enough gak from asking about Israel.

True, I was really just riffing on the idea that if Christians can't start picking and choosing who's really Christian, why can't Muslims...


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Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:Just wanted to point out that this thread is a response to some (very intellectual) atheists bringing up the Christian-Nazi connection on a thread about why do Christians do good deeds (I'm parapharasing very poorly here). So the shoe does fall on that foot as well.

There's no denying Christianity spurs a number of believers into doing very good deeds.

There's also no denying that the ideas of evolution inspired some particularly horrible people to begin to develop the ideas of eugenics, which in time spread into other circles, including religious ones.

Sebster gave a nice response to many of the points made but gave a very casual dismissal to the source of the original quotes made by the OP. Is this really a questionable source?

Yeah, it's dodgy as hell. No quote in the book has a reliable primary source, and it wildly contradicts every primary source we have on Hitler's thoughts.

I have never read said book, but they seem logical from a fascists mindset. Most if not all politicians lie to the public, so comments spoken before a large gathering of protestant christians seem more like political bravo (like how Gore "created the internet") that actual belief.

We have other primary sources for Hitler's thoughts that were private. And many of the public ones were made when Hitler had complete political control of Germany. And the brand of Christianity Hitler espoused was a very contraversial form, that no-one would accept if they simply looking to pander to Christians.

So my question remains, is the source of the original quotes not considered true?

You won't find many historians of Hitler who use the work, outside of the small circle of Christian historians dedicated to making the claim that Hitler wasn't Christian.


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Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:@Ketara, we can debate what is a "Christian" all day, frankly I grew up Mormon and a lot of Christians would not consider me Christian although I worship Jesus Christ.

The message however is what Christ taught. The 2 great commandments were 1. love and worship God and 2. love your fellow man. Killing many people (Jews, Slavs, gays and crippled people) is against the 2nd great commandment.

Totally. I'm on board with the idea that Hitler was not a good Christian. It's just that whether you are or are not a Christian isn't based on whether you're a good one, but whether you believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour.

Nice that we can agree to disagree without setting up concentration camps.

That's what you think. In about an hour a lovely man from FEMA will be around to pick you up. You are permitted to take one small suitcase with you, no more.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:I believe acknowledging Jesus Christ is the more important part to a Christian, though I would assume they still have to follow the commandments. Whether this means the big #2, the medium #10 or the min #200+, I'm not sure.

I would assume that if one was to honestly acknowledge Jesus that would mean embracing his laws. That many people claim their love for Jesus without actually tempering their lives by his* laws is a bit of a shame.





*You know how you capitalise His when you're talking about God, do you do that for Jesus as well?


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Ahtman wrote:This is one of those times it is better to not trust Wikipedia because of how contentious the subject matter is. I'll go with the verified quotes from trusted historians that were used earlier in the thread in which Hitlers has called himself a Christian. There is a difference between not being a Christian and not being what a majority of people would think of as a good example of a Christian.

Yeah, the wikipedia pages on this are horrendous. I think it's that perfect storm of being not quite important enough for serious historians to worry about building pages on, but important enough for amateur's with an agenda to throw loads of almost research into.


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Mannahnin wrote:Perhaps my memory is poor, but I associate the 10 Commandments much more with Moses than Jesus. Not to say that he didn't teach those too, but he talked about a lot of other stuff as well.

The passage quoted a couple of times earlier in the thread has Jesus saying "love god" and "love thy neighbor as thyself". The latter doesn't seem to accurately describe how the Nazis treated many of their neighbors; in Germany or outside of it.

Hitler believed Jesus was an Aryan who fought against the oppression of the Jews. He felt himself to be doing the same. It's safe to say his own brand of Christianity was sufficiently ridiculous to defy judgement according to traditional Christian principals.

Which, of course, doesn't make him not Christian. It makes him a follower of a bizarrely contorted variant.

sebster wrote:

Ahtman wrote:This is one of those times it is better to not trust Wikipedia because of how contentious the subject matter is. I'll go with the verified quotes from trusted historians that were used earlier in the thread in which Hitlers has called himself a Christian. There is a difference between not being a Christian and not being what a majority of people would think of as a good example of a Christian.

Yeah, the wikipedia pages on this are horrendous. I think it's that perfect storm of being not quite important enough for serious historians to worry about building pages on, but important enough for amateur's with an agenda to throw loads of almost research into.

Only reason i brought up the Wikipedia article is it state there are many quotes but many are not sourced/ from unreliable sources, plus it mentions that his religious beliefs were not completely clear

Gibbsey wrote:Only reason i brought up the Wikipedia article is it state there are many quotes but many are not sourced/ from unreliable sources, plus it mentions that his religious beliefs were not completely clear

Thing is, his beliefs are fairly clear. It's just that a lot of people don't like the answer.

sebster wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Actually, I wasn't including any media outlets giving this information. I was reffering to conversations I've had with Muslims, some of which I consider friends. I'm sure that some station (maybe not Al Jazeera but att least someone) or a Imam in a televised account would do their best to distance Osama from the wider Islamic religion. But the actual people that I've talked to didn't really try to outright deny Osama's status as a Muslim (a few supported his resistence to Western Ideals) but they universally felt that his actions only tarnished the Muslim faith and encouraged further attacks (and only made people favour Israel more, but that's a whole other issue that resulted in many passionate speechs on their part). Suffice to say, I really didn't try to bring the fellow up too much. I got enough gak from asking about Israel.

True, I was really just riffing on the idea that if Christians can't start picking and choosing who's really Christian, why can't Muslims...

Well Mormons (Christian or no?) seem to be able to pick and choose which dead people are Mormon, so really there's nothing stopping anyone. It's a well known fact that Joan of Arc was actually Muslim, as decided some 500 years or so after her death.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I believe acknowledging Jesus Christ is the more important part to a Christian, though I would assume they still have to follow the commandments. Whether this means the big #2, the medium #10 or the min #200+, I'm not sure.

I would assume that if one was to honestly acknowledge Jesus that would mean embracing his laws. That many people claim their love for Jesus without actually tempering their lives by his* laws is a bit of a shame.





*You know how you capitalise His when you're talking about God, do you do that for Jesus as well?

A damn good question.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Mike Noble wrote:I think that it is hard to justify violence with Christianity considering that if you do kill you are breaking one of the most important laws of it. So in a sense, Hitler may have considered himself a Christian, but he certainly didn't follow the rules very well.

Seems to me in the Bible you can kill as many people as you like if God is on your side.

Yeah but it says "Thou shalt not kill.", Not, Thou shalt not kill.....unless you really want to."

Just because their are certain people God doesn't like, that doesn't mean anyone can kill them, that would be His job. The way I see it at least.

Mike Noble wrote:
Yeah but it says "Thou shalt not kill.", Not, Thou shalt not kill.....unless you really want to."

Just because their are certain people God doesn't like, that doesn't mean anyone can kill them, that would be His job. The way I see it at least.

Do different bibles get 'Kill' and 'Murder' mixed up, or is this a common misconception?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Mike Noble wrote:
Yeah but it says "Thou shalt not kill.", Not, Thou shalt not kill.....unless you really want to."

Just because their are certain people God doesn't like, that doesn't mean anyone can kill them, that would be His job. The way I see it at least.

Do different bibles get 'Kill' and 'Murder' mixed up, or is this a common misconception?

Shockingly, this depends on who you ask.