Adolf Hitler and the Nazis vs religion..IE what were they?

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**Emperors Faithful**

Amaya wrote:Where in the Bible does it say to go hate Jews?

I don't beleive it does (at least not specifically). However, it is a not-so-minor view that the Jewish people squandered the opportunity that Christ provided, and the resentment that some Christians feel at the people who denounced their God as a criminal and killed him is understandble. But over time it's become an issue of intolerance of other cultures (supported by the Curch) rather than an idealogical battle.

Ahtman wrote:
Amaya wrote:What Christian teachings fall in line with Nazism?

We've already dismissed this argument several times. By now it would be a nuisance argument and you'd be fined by the court.

The same ones that said slavery was not only good but necessary. The same ones that allowed the Inquisition to kill and torture people. The same ones that Jim Phelps uses in his arguments, or Jim Jones. The same ones that made Timothy McVeigh bomb a federal building in Oklahoma. The same ones that get people to murder doctors. The same ones that make tell people in AIDS ravaged countries to not use condoms. That is the tip of the list of idiots, but every one of them considered themselves Christian and didn't and don't care whether you think they are or not.

And where are these in the New Testament?

Why is the Old Testament invalid?

**Manchu**

Ahtman wrote:Becuase it answers the question you asked?

Not really. But I should probably say that I don't think much of Anglican philosopher's views regarding divinity -- especially when they're only really interested in the State anyhow.

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Emperors Faithful wrote:Why is the Old Testament invalid?

You have a weird habit, in this thread at least, of severely missing people's points.

**Amaya**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Amaya wrote:Where in the Bible does it say to go hate Jews?

I don't beleive it does (at least not specifically). However, it is a not-so-minor view that the Jewish people squandered the opportunity that Christ provided, and the resentment that some Christians feel at the people who denounced their God as a criminal and killed him is understandble. But over time it's become an issue of intolerance of other cultures (supported by the Curch) rather than an idealogical battle.

Ahtman wrote:
Amaya wrote:What Christian teachings fall in line with Nazism?

We've already dismissed this argument several times. By now it would be a nuisance argument and you'd be fined by the court.

The same ones that said slavery was not only good but necessary. The same ones that allowed the Inquisition to kill and torture people. The same ones that Jim Phelps uses in his arguments, or Jim Jones. The same ones that made Timothy McVeigh bomb a federal building in Oklahoma. The same ones that get people to murder doctors. The same ones that make tell people in AIDS ravaged countries to not use condoms. That is the tip of the list of idiots, but every one of them considered themselves Christian and didn't and don't care whether you think they are or not.

And where are these in the New Testament?

Why is the Old Testament invalid?

Because Jesus made a New Covenant with mankind, invalidationg the Covenant made with Abraham.

**Ahtman**

Invalidating is a pretty serious word there, and one that many theologians are going to disagree with.

**Emperors Faithful**

Manchu wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:Why is the Old Testament invalid?
You have a weird habit, in this thread at least, of severely missing people's points.

Please explain.

Amaya wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:
Amaya wrote:And where are these in the New Testament?

Why is the Old Testament invalid?

Because Jesus made a New Covenant with mankind, invalidationg the Covenant made with Abraham.

I must have severely misunderstood what the New Testament taught. I was under the impression that the New Covenant invalidated the covenant with Abraham, not the entire Old Testament.

**Manchu**

Invalidated is not the word at all. Fulfilled is better.

I think what Amaya is getting at by mentioning the NT rather than the OT is that he's looking for where these beliefs/practices that Ahtman mentioned can be found in Christian scripture (as opposed to Jewish scripture coopted by Christians).

**youbedead**

Amaya wrote:Where in the Bible does it say to go hate Jews?

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Ahtman wrote:
Amaya wrote:What Christian teachings fall in line with Nazism?

We've already dismissed this argument several times. By now it would be a nuisance argument and you'd be fined by the court.

The same ones that said slavery was not only good but necessary. The same ones that allowed the Inquisition to kill and torture people. The same ones that Jim Phelps uses in his arguments, or Jim Jones. The same ones that made Timothy McVeigh bomb a federal building in Oklahoma. The same ones that get people to murder doctors. The same ones that make tell people in AIDS ravaged countries to not use condoms. That is the tip of the list of idiots, but every one of them considered themselves Christian and didn't and don't care whether you think they are or not.

And where are these in the New Testament?

You are either missing the point or refuse to except it. The word of god has been twisted by many in history, slavery became institutionalized in the south largely because of the twisted souls who used Christianity to support it.The inquisition worked for the catholic church etc. Many popes have ordered the killing of thousands because they felt they were doing gods work.

**Manchu**

There's a lot of talk about "the Inquisition" flying around that is obviously not supported by even the most cursory investigation. I suggest some of you put down the Dan Abnett and pick up some actual history books. You could start with the wikipedia article, even.

**Emperors Faithful**

youbedead wrote: The word of god has been twisted by many in history, slavery became institutionalized in the south largely because of the twisted souls who used Christianity to support it.

Civilisations and nations have practiced slavery since the beginning of recorded history, many of which were not Christian or Jewish. It's unfair to blame what was a universally accepted practice on Christianity (although the US was one of the last to outlaw it).

**Manchu**

And Christians played central roles in illegalizing it, both in the US and the UK.

**Ahtman**

Manchu wrote:There's a lot of talk about "the Inquisition" flying around that is obviously not supported by even the most cursory investigation. I suggest some of you put down the Dan Abnett and pick up some actual history books. You could start with the wikipedia article, even.

Which allegations? That they tortured and even killed people? We know they did that, it isn't a conspiracy theory. It wasn't as extensive as it is sometimes portrayed, but it did happen.

**Emperors Faithful**

Manchu wrote:There's a lot of talk about "the Inquisition" flying around that is obviously not supported by even the most cursory investigation. I suggest some of you put down the Dan Abnett and pick up some actual history books. You could start with the wikipedia article, even.

Condescending post is condescending.

Ahtman hasn't really gone into any extensive detail regarding what the Inquisition did. Though much of their darker tales and acts of evil may be exaggerated, some of their practices are historical fact.

**Amaya**

youbedead wrote:
Amaya wrote:Where in the Bible does it say to go hate Jews?

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Ahtman wrote:
Amaya wrote:What Christian teachings fall in line with Nazism?

We've already dismissed this argument several times. By now it would be a nuisance argument and you'd be fined by the court.

The same ones that said slavery was not only good but necessary. The same ones that allowed the Inquisition to kill and torture people. The same ones that Jim Phelps uses in his arguments, or Jim Jones. The same ones that made Timothy McVeigh bomb a federal building in Oklahoma. The same ones that get people to murder doctors. The same ones that make tell people in AIDS ravaged countries to not use condoms. That is the tip of the list of idiots, but every one of them considered themselves Christian and didn't and don't care whether you think they are or not.

And where are these in the New Testament?

You are either missing the point or refuse to except it. The word of god has been twisted by many in history, slavery became institutionalized in the south largely because of the twisted souls who used Christianity to support it.The inquisition worked for the catholic church etc. Many popes have ordered the killing of thousands because they felt they were doing gods work.

Except it?

Nothing, NOTHING, in the NT says go and kill non believers. The most annoying thing Christians are told to do is go and spread the Gospel. Which amounts to those obnoxious Jehovah's witnesses showing up at your door with their 'literature'.

**youbedead**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
youbedead wrote: The word of god has been twisted by many in history, slavery became institutionalized in the south largely because of the twisted souls who used Christianity to support it.

Civilisations and nations have practiced slavery since the beginning of recorded history, many of which were not Christian or Jewish. It's unfair to blame what was a universally accepted practice on Christianity (although the US was one of the last to outlaw it).

I am talking about how salve owners would use the church as way to support what they were doing, I am not blaming Christians for slavery itself.

**Emperors Faithful**

Manchu wrote:And Christians played central roles in illegalizing it, both in the US and the UK.

Exactly, which I find peculiar.

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(though not in a bad way)

**youbedead**

Ahtman wrote:
Manchu wrote:There's a lot of talk about "the Inquisition" flying around that is obviously not supported by even the most cursory investigation. I suggest some of you put down the Dan Abnett and pick up some actual history books. You could start with the wikipedia article, even.

Which allegations? That they tortured and even killed people? We know they did that, it isn't a conspiracy theory. It wasn't as extensive as it is sometimes portrayed, but it did happen.

I am guessing he is talking about the fact that it was more of a political organization then a religious one, and for much of its history it functioned as a fundraising organization through extortion.

**Ahtman**

Christianity hasn't been blamed for slavery to my knowledge, but it was used to justify and in the states, used as a tool to better control the slave population.

Manchu wrote:And Christians played central roles in illegalizing it, both in the US and the UK.

Indeed. The history of Slavery and anti-slavery is for more complex than is usually given light. Of course the flipside is that they weren't being egalitarians either, they thought slavery was wrong but wanted the slaves back with their own kind. That kind of equality would come later using the strategy of a little Hindu and lead mostly by Churchs.

**youbedead**

Amaya wrote:
youbedead wrote:
Amaya wrote:Where in the Bible does it say to go hate Jews?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:
Amaya wrote:What Christian teachings fall in line with Nazism?

We've already dismissed this argument several times. By now it would be a nuisance argument and you'd be fined by the court.

The same ones that said slavery was not only good but necessary. The same ones that allowed the Inquisition to kill and torture people. The same ones that Jim Phelps uses in his arguments, or Jim Jones. The same ones that made Timothy McVeigh bomb a federal building in Oklahoma. The same ones that get people to murder doctors. The same ones that make tell people in AIDS ravaged countries to not use condoms. That is the tip of the list of idiots, but every one of them considered themselves Christian and didn't and don't care whether you think they are or not.

And where are these in the New Testament?

You are either missing the point or refuse to except it. The word of god has been twisted by many in history, slavery became institutionalized in the south largely because of the twisted souls who used Christianity to support it.The inquisition worked for the catholic church etc. Many popes have ordered the killing of thousands because they felt they were doing gods work.

Except it?

Nothing, NOTHING, in the NT says go and kill non believers. The most annoying thing Christians are told to do is go and spread the Gospel. Which amounts to those obnoxious Jehovah's witnesses showing up at your door with their 'literature'.

That is what people are saying, men who believed themselves devout Christians committed heinous acts in the name of the faith.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:Christianity hasn't been blamed for slavery to my knowledge, but it was used to justify and in the states, used as a tool to better control the slave population.

Manchu wrote:And Christians played central roles in illegalizing it, both in the US and the UK.

Indeed. The history of Slavery and anti-slavery is for more complex than is usually given light. Of course the flipside is that they weren't being egalitarians either, they thought slavery was wrong but wanted the slaves back with their own kind. That kind of equality would come later using the strategy of a little Hindu and lead mostly by Churchs.

Exactly, thanks for understanding the point.

**Manchu**

Ahtman wrote:
Manchu wrote:There's a lot of talk about "the Inquisition" flying around that is obviously not supported by even the most cursory investigation. I suggest some of you put down the Dan Abnett and pick up some actual history books. You could start with the wikipedia article, even.
Which allegations? That they tortured and even killed people? We know they did that, it isn't a conspiracy theory. It wasn't as extensive as it is sometimes portrayed, but it did happen.

I am referring to the phrase "worked for the Catholic Church," as if the either the Church or the Inquisition were monolithic bureaucracies similar to the KGB or the SD. These kind of false analogies, especially regarding Catholicism, produce the sort of misinformation that this thread is founded upon. As for torturing and killing -- fine, but let's also add clamping down on superstition-motivated violence and inventing/employing objective and comparatively fair investigative and legal procedures when civil authorities either could not or would not do so, among other positive contributions, to that list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:Christianity hasn't been blamed for slavery to my knowledge, but it was used to justify and in the states, used as a tool to better control the slave population.

And used by slaves to resist being controlled.

**Ahtman**

Manchu wrote:]And used by slaves to resist being controlled.

That came later and after they had been stripped of their family, community, and religious ties of their past. They turned the weapon against their oppressors,but it was still a weapon first.

As for why the Inquisition was hastily brought up, creating some distortion, is because no one expected them, and were taken by surprise.

**youbedead**

Manchu wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
Manchu wrote:There's a lot of talk about "the Inquisition" flying around that is obviously not supported by even the most cursory investigation. I suggest some of you put down the Dan Abnett and pick up some actual history books. You could start with the wikipedia article, even.
Which allegations? That they tortured and even killed people? We know they did that, it isn't a conspiracy theory. It wasn't as extensive as it is sometimes portrayed, but it did happen.
I am referring to the phrase "worked for the Catholic Church," as if the either the Church or the Inquisition were monolithic bureaucracies similar to the KGB or the SD. These kind of false analogies, especially regarding Catholicism, produce the sort of misinformation that this thread is founded upon. As for torturing and killing -- fine, but let's also add clamping down on superstition-motivated violence and inventing/employing objective and comparatively fair investigative and legal procedures when civil authorities either could or would not do so, among other positive contributions, to that list.

Sorry for putting the wrong thing down, i shall amend it.
The inquisition worked for the Spanish monarchy, which believed that they were devout catholics. And because of this initially kicked all the jews and muslims out (which nearly collapsed the economy of spain. Then founded the inquistion as a last ditch effort to gather money for the state.

Is that better

**Manchu**

That is much more accurate. You -- and others who might read your post -- can now see how the ambitions of Castille and Aragon in Iberia, over and against Muslim dominance, had more to do with the Spanish Inquisition than the teachings of Jesus Christ.

**youbedead**

Manchu wrote:That is much more accurate.

And entirely unexpected

**Manchu**

Ahtman wrote:That came later and after they had been stripped of their family, community, and religious ties of their past. They turned the weapon against their oppressors,but it was still a weapon first.

You seem more ready to take the faith of oppressors seriously than that of the oppressed. I guess the opposite charge could be made of me, but then again I am Christian.

As for why the Inquisition was hastily brought up, creating some distortion, is because no one expected them, and were taken by surprise

It is their chief weapon. Or amongst their weapons.

**youbedead**

Manchu wrote:That is much more accurate. You -- and others who might read your post -- can now see how the ambitions of Castille and Aragon in Iberia, over and against Muslim dominance, had more to do with the Spanish Inquisition than the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Honestly I think the greatest moment during this period is when isabella demanded that all jews and muslims were to exiled. The problem being that most of the bankers and merchant were jews and muslims, since contemporary christian thought damned those professions. It is not hard to imagine what happens when you remove all bankers and merchants

**Manchu**

A golden age of Spanish imperial power? Cause that's what happened.

**Ahtman**

Manchu wrote:Aragon in Iberia, over and against Muslim dominance

Now who is being inaccurate? Aragorn was to busy with Mordoor to ever get to Iberia.

Manchu wrote:had more to do with the Spanish Inquisition than the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And yet that has never stopped anyone from doing horrible things in has name over and over. We are going in circles here.

**Amaya**

Ahtman wrote:
Manchu wrote:Aragon in Iberia, over and against Muslim dominance

Now who is being inaccurate? Aragorn was to busy with Mordoor to ever get to Iberia.

Manchu wrote:had more to do with the Spanish Inquisition than the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And yet that has never stopped anyone from doing horrible things in has name over and over. We are going in circles here.

You act as those people doing horrible things in the name of something that couldn't possibly support their cause is a new and exciting concept.

**Manchu**

Ahtman wrote:And yet that has never stopped anyone from doing horrible things in has name over and over. We are going in circles here.

So I'll complete this iteration of the circle by claiming to post this in your name.

**Ahtman**

All I am saying is if the answer to every question is 'they weren't real Christians' we will never understand why people who claim it do such terrible things. In the end this isn't unique to Christianity, but in this case, is specifically about Christianity.

Just saying "they aren't real Christians" may make other Christians feel better for not being horrible people, as stated earlier the vast majority are not, but it doesn't help create an understanding of why. The ones committing such acts considered themselves Christians whether we think so or not so why don't we understand why a Christian would act in such a way instead of trying to shut the conversation down.