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Ketara your last reply was so intellectually dishonest that I'm going to refrain from responding to you anymore. When you learn to stop taking people out of context and making stuff up out of the air. Then maybe I''ll try again to have an internet discussion with you.

GG

generalgrog wrote:Ketara if you want to talk about "what constitutes a Christian", please start a new thread, or PM me. This thread is about nazis.

GG

This is a bit of a cop out. You've argued that Nazi's aren't Christian. The first step in this discussion would be to clarify what constitutes a Christian and whether or not Nazis could be viewed as compatible or whether their views clash (on critical levels).

Fafnir wrote:And I'm sure Hitler took sugar with his coffee too. Does that mean everyone who takes sugar with their coffee is evil too?

And here I didn't think the argument was being presented as a zero-sum situation. If only I would have thought of using a straw man myself instead of trying to present a nuanced view of the situation.

Ahtman wrote:

Fafnir wrote:And I'm sure Hitler took sugar with his coffee too. Does that mean everyone who takes sugar with their coffee is evil too?

And here I didn't think the argument was being presented as a zero-sum situation. If only I would have thought of using a straw man myself instead of trying to present a nuanced view of the situation.

We don't like your kind around this here parts. With your fancy logic an such, you and all those who make sense make me sick.

Furthermore, Hitler did always list Martin Luther as one of the greatest reformists to ever live. Martin Luther certainly shared the trait of anti-semitism with Hitler (most of christian Europe did too, but not to such an extent).

It could be argued that Hitler's disgust was directed at Christianity as a religion rather than Jesus Christ the man, and if so is no different to many Christian branches and perfectly in line with German Protestantism. Christianity in many forms has always been intolerant of Jews (capital J?).


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youbedead wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Fafnir wrote:And I'm sure Hitler took sugar with his coffee too. Does that mean everyone who takes sugar with their coffee is evil too?

And here I didn't think the argument was being presented as a zero-sum situation. If only I would have thought of using a straw man myself instead of trying to present a nuanced view of the situation.

We don't like your kind around this here parts. With your fancy logic an such, you and all those who make sense make me sick.

I agree, them smarty people are just downright disgusting. We need to fix this problem once and for all, y'know? Some kind of final solution...

Ahtman wrote:They perverted Christianity by mixing it with other diluted religions (pagan, Hindu) but to pretend it didn't have an influence at all disingenuous.

What one person hears isn't necessarily what another person says. Christianity's "influence" on National Socialism is so broad as to be merely incidental. One might as well say that European history had an influence on National Socialism.

Manchu wrote:

Ahtman wrote:They perverted Christianity by mixing it with other diluted religions (pagan, Hindu) but to pretend it didn't have an influence at all disingenuous.

What one person hears isn't necessarily what another person says. Christianity's "influence" on National Socialism is so broad as to be merely incidental. One might as well say that European history had an influence on National Socialism.

Well, it probably did. European history is awash with anti-semitism. Just not to the extent that camps were being founded. The problem is that this stems from Christianity (though not from scripture).

You rather missed the point, EF. What I mean to say is that Christianity had negligible specific influence on the development of National Socialism. Although that may sound a bit sweeping, it seems to me far more accurate than the counterclaim.

Manchu wrote:You rather missed the point, EF. What I mean to say is that Christianity had negligible specific influence on the development of National Socialism. Although that may sound a bit sweeping, it seems to me far more accurate than the counterclaim.

Well, I wouldn't say that Christianity inspired the Nazi movement, but to say it was a negligible influence is not much better (though at least you aren't claiming he was a Pantheist Pagan anti-theist Omnphile sort of thing ).

Christianity had an effect on everything in Europe. It was just the dominant religion for over a thousand years...

Yeah, so it had the same effect on the development of Nazism as it did on the development of the BBC. That's my point at least.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, so it had the same effect on the development of Nazism as it did on the development of the BBC. That's my point at least.

The BBC isn't a political movement, and it doesn't promote anti-semitism.

So what?

Manchu wrote:So what?

There's no evidence to suggest that BBC has a decidely Christian agenda (if we are even allowed by OP to discuss what that means). They weren't inspired by the teachings of Martin Luther and it wasn't founded with the goal of running a country.

There's more evidence of christianity having an influence on the Nazi party than there is on the BBC. Though I have to admit I don't know if the BBC was particularily anti-semitic in the 1930's.

Again: you've missed the point. You could say that Christianity had an effect on anything in Western culture. It's a truism. Nothing particular is explained about National Socialism by trying to trace its origins in Christianity -- because it has no specific origins in Christianity.

Manchu wrote:Again: you've missed the point. You could say that Christianity had an effect on anything in Western culture. It's a truism. Nothing particular is explained about National Socialism by trying to trace its origins in Christianity -- because it has no specific origins in Christianity.

As a Catholic I'm not sure if you think this guy is part of Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

He went along with it until he could start removing the Catholics, then the Protestants, then, hey, only the adoration of the Fuhrer was left in Germany's houses. He was a crazy fether who did whatever was needed for his evil goals.

They came first for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

-- Pastor Martin Niemoller, Holocaust victim.

@EF: In the ancient Church, Christians were often persecuted for their beliefs. Sometimes they would renounce their faith in order to save their lives. The question came up of what to do with such "traitors." One group, called the Donatists, believed that those who renounced their faith could never again participate in the Church. They went so far as to turn over the "traitor" Christians to the pagans. The pagans, of course, burned and otherwise tortured the Christians who had been turned over by the Donatists. The Donatists also believed that the sacraments celebrated by priests who had renounced their faith to escape persecution were invalid. To them, a sinner could not celebrate valid sacraments.

The orthodox Catholic position in these matters was quite different. First, the Church recognized that people threatened with fatal violence -- against themselves as well as their loved ones -- would very likely break down and renounce their faith. Such people should be treated with compassion rather than kicked out much less turned over to the pagans for the torment and execution they had formerly escaped. Furthermore, as St Augustine himself argued, the validity of the sacraments flows from God and not from the moral character of the celebrant. It was apparent to the orthodox Catholics of the ancient Church that there would be a rare few priests who might become saints and plenty more who had a much harder road of it. Even as it is unto these days . . .

In other words, there has always been in orthodox Christianity an explicit recognition that human beings -- in contrast to God -- are imperfect, fallible, fallen, sinful, in constant need of redemption, &etc. Martin Luther's prejudices do not mean he was not a Christian. They merely signify that he was human: yes, capable of holding and teaching despicable ideas. But also capable of nobler things.

What Martin Luther has to do with Hitler specifically -- outside of Hitler's ahistorical understanding of the German Volk -- or, what you claim their relationship to be, is totally beyond me. I don't see any relationship between Protestantism and Nazism except inasmuch as the historical "trends" or "forces" or whatever you want to call them that called up the modern age with the unfurling of the Reformation (namely: the increasing confusion of God with the state) ultimately find their grimmest expression in Auschwitz.

What can really be said about Christianity and fascism? Well, as Christianity declines in influence . . . the influence of fascism seems to wax.

Manchu wrote: I don't see any relationship between Protestantism and Nazism

Again, read Hobbes.

Manchu wrote:Again: you've missed the point. You could say that Christianity had an effect on anything in Western culture. It's a truism. Nothing particular is explained about National Socialism by trying to trace its origins in Christianity -- because it has no specific origins in Christianity.

It's just an attempt to link lower Christianity by saying that they influenced Nazism.

Manchu wrote:In other words, there has always been in orthodox Christianity an explicit recognition that human beings -- in contrast to God -- are imperfect, fallible, fallen, sinful, in constant need of redemption, &etc. Martin Luther's prejudices do not mean he was not a Christian. They merely signify that he was human: yes, capable of holding and teaching despicable ideas. But also capable of nobler things.

I did not imply that Martin Luther was inhuman, or that he was not Christian. Also, at the time, there would have been absolutely nothing out of the ordinary regarding his distaste for the Jews. Europe was extensively anti-semite, a trait very much owing to the influence of Christianity.

What Martin Luther has to do with Hitler specifically -- outside of Hitler's ahistorical understanding of the German Volk -- or, what you claim their relationship to be, is totally beyond me. I don't see any relationship between Protestantism and Nazism except inasmuch as the historical "trends" or "forces" or whatever you want to call them that called up the modern age with the unfurling of the Reformation (namely: the increasing confusion of God with the state) ultimately find their grimmest expression in Auschwitz.

All I've said is that they're are Christian teachings that fell perfectly in line with what Hitler believed. Just as there were teachings that he chose to twist or ignore completely. He used Christianity for political expedience, just as he would have done with whatever religion Germany had been at the time (and had mentioned that a Germany with a Japanese or Islamic religion would have been easier to 'militarise'). It annoys me when posters like GG repeatedly claim that Hitler was personally either an athiest or a pagan, especially given his public adversity to such movements. It further annoys me when such posters claim that the Nazi's had little-to-no connection to Christianity, and absolutely refuses to engage in discussion.

Amaya wrote:

Manchu wrote:Again: you've missed the point. You could say that Christianity had an effect on anything in Western culture. It's a truism. Nothing particular is explained about National Socialism by trying to trace its origins in Christianity -- because it has no specific origins in Christianity.

It's just an attempt to link lower Christianity by saying that they influenced Nazism.

Except it did, but not much more than other influences. I don't believe it has been stated that Christianity was the primary driving force behind Nazism or even the only one. That certainly wouldn't be true. The main driving force was much the same as for the characters in The Social Network, getting girls.

WWII isn't needed to make Christianity look foolish or malevolent, Christians can do that all by themselves at any given time. Thank goodness the vast majority of Christians aren't either.


The difference between Martin Luther's brand of antisemitism and the Nazis is that ML's was a religious discrimination. Conversion would absolve, whereas, armed with poor science, it became a racial issue and converting or not had no bearing. It is an important distinction. Though this could be argued for either side I think it shows how, besides some elements and manipulation purposes, little Christian ideology played in the actual underpinnings of their thinking.

What do you call it when people speak the truth, but do so in a manner that comes dangerously close to trolling?

What Christian teachings fall in line with Nazism?

Amaya wrote:What Christian teachings fall in line with Nazism?

Depends on what you class as 'Christian teachings', and whether only scripture can be classed as a christian teaching.

@Ahtman: Why bother with Hobbes when I can lament over the ironies of Kant? The development of modernism, I'd argue, is about unconscious as well as conscious rejection of traditional Christianity rather than a development of it. Perhaps the world would have been better off if men like Hobbes and Kant had focused their energies on hunting down the works of the Church Fathers and learning about Christianity as a historical as well as eternal phenomenon. But we might as well wish that they invented electricity -- or cured AIDS and cancer, for that matter.

Ahtman wrote:The difference between Martin Luther's brand of antisemitism and the Nazis is that ML's was a religious discrimination. Conversion would absolve, whereas, armed with poor science, it became a racial issue and converting or not had no bearing. It is an important distinction. Though this could be argued for either side I think it shows how, besides some elements and manipulation purposes, little Christian ideology played in the actual underpinnings of their thinking.

A fair point, but the idea of Jews having a racial inferiority might never have occured if not for the religious brands of antisemitism.

Amaya wrote:What Christian teachings fall in line with Nazism?

We've already dismissed this argument several times. By now it would be a nuisance argument and you'd be fined by the court.

The same ones that said slavery was not only good but necessary. The same ones that allowed the Inquisition to kill and torture people. The same ones that Jim Phelps uses in his arguments, or Jim Jones. The same ones that made Timothy McVeigh bomb a federal building in Oklahoma. The same ones that get people to murder doctors. The same ones that make tell people in AIDS ravaged countries to not use condoms. That is the tip of the list of idiots, but every one of them considered themselves Christian and didn't and don't care whether you think they are or not.

Where in the Bible does it say to go hate Jews?


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Ahtman wrote:

Amaya wrote:What Christian teachings fall in line with Nazism?

We've already dismissed this argument several times. By now it would be a nuisance argument and you'd be fined by the court.

The same ones that said slavery was not only good but necessary. The same ones that allowed the Inquisition to kill and torture people. The same ones that Jim Phelps uses in his arguments, or Jim Jones. The same ones that made Timothy McVeigh bomb a federal building in Oklahoma. The same ones that get people to murder doctors. The same ones that make tell people in AIDS ravaged countries to not use condoms. That is the tip of the list of idiots, but every one of them considered themselves Christian and didn't and don't care whether you think they are or not.

And where are these in the New Testament?

Manchu wrote:@Ahtman: Why bother with Hobbes when I can lament over the ironies of Kant?

Becuase it answers the question you asked? Hobbes wrote a treatise on the importance and connection between a strong state and divinity. You said you didn't see a connection between the two and I'm giving an example of an imoprtant piece of writing from a Christian author that did make the connextion, though it wasn't in reference to Nazism specifically, but it would be a bit of Christian writing that would influence them.

@Amaya: are you really this naive or just trolling? If you don't know enough history to understand the historical connection between Christianity and antisemitism in Europe than you may need to do some research before coming in here. Pretending your view on what it means to be Christian now has no bearing at all on what people in the past believed it meant as well as what many modern Christians believe. If all you are going to do is just pull a True Scotsman on every point this is going to be a short and fruitless discussion.