Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I believe newer products are removing the "classic" from the title. The last I remember hearing was that the death of Clickytech somehow freed up the Battletech title again so the Classic could be axed. I would have to do a bit more searching to be sure.

As far as the game play I think battletech is one of the best miniature games ever printed. I only bashed the new cover as they are trying to repackage classic battletech when all of the original "classic" mech designs have been removed. Other than being a flavor change it doesn't impact the games playability at all, the rules are still great and don't fall into the traps that other game systems suffer from. As all mech follow standard construction rules there's no codex creep, or tons of specialty rules that bog it down like 40k or WM/hordes.

I love the old macross/robotech mecha and wish they could have kept them, but that out of their hands to control.

Some of the models may look a bit dated but many of them are between 20-25 years old. In compairision those rogue trader era marines don't look so hot either, the differance is that GW has updated marines a few times since, where many of the classic BT models have never seen a revised model. The clan mechs which were released in the 90s are usually much better sculpts. Some of the new ironwind metal models are good, the majority are hit and miss.

The upside is the minis are much cheaper than GW or PP, I was looking over battletech stuff at the local store and could find plety of models in the $8-10 range, hell will freeze over before you find those type of prices at the GW bunkers.

My point was that some of them have seen redesigns. Pretty much all of the unseens have (for legal reasons) and even some of the other old ones. For example take the Panther, one of the mechs that come in the box set.

Here is the version from TRO 3050 (looks almost exactly the same as the 3025 version):

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:3050U_Panther.jpg


And then the version from 3085:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/FileNT-13K_Panther.jpg


Or the Wolfhound:

Old (3025)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:Wolfhound.jpg

And new (3085)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:WLF-5_Wolfhound.jpg


There is a very noticeable difference and change in aesthetic. Many designs got similar treatment in 3085 and now it just comes down to IWM making new sculpts for these. Though Catalyst, as you can see, is moving the aesthetic forward.

Mattlov wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Wow. Whole lotta hate going on this this thread. If you don't like BattleTech, that's cool. But please, let you're opinion-as-fact bull-gak at the door.

I know. Especially the "OMG it is so hard to play!" people.

It is simple math. Can you add from 0-14? And read a page of charts? That is really all Battletech takes. It isn't hard.

Many aspects of Battletech are hardly 'simple math'. The math may be easy but making sure you are doing it correctly, can be tricky. Not to mention if you actually wanted to build a mech using the Tech manual. There is so much errata on that book that is pretty much impossible for the average person to every think about doing themselves.

There are free programs that take that problem away, and the TechManual isn't required to play the game.


Really, it must be some sort of unspoken Dakka Lore that makes BattleTech a pariah that cannot be enjoyed by anyone, lest they have picked nits thrust upon them...

The mini you posted is called a Jagermech, and that's an excellent representation of a mech that really is that ugly. Nobody I ever played with could stand that thing, and not just on an aesthetic level. It's performance in a game is about as attractive as how it looks. Still, for every one like that, there's a lot of extremely slick looking designs.

H.B.M.C., I thank you for being the recurring voice of reason in this thread, righting wrongs and doing good, like the half brother of a certain chapter master we know

I'm honestly looking forward to this, even if I know the models won't be of the best quality. Worst case scenario I buy metal replacements from IWM. Battletech was simple enough for me to play as a 10 year old, and I'm sure now that I'm twice that age I'll enjoy it even more.

Well, I had to chime in on this. I found Battletech in '88 because I loved Robotech. This was a game that used the same figures, but was easier to figure out than an RPG.

I haven't played in years, but I did play a lot of MechWarrior Dark Age. It's still in my garage too.

Anyways, my point being, a friend of mine and I are working on making cloth maps with 2" hexes (the size of a MW mech base), some acrylic hexes to transfer the figures to, and some terrain tiles to modify the playing area similar to the hex pack map tiles.

Who knows, if others are interested I may be willing to make some extras.

I can't believe they wouldn't put the Madcat there.... it's like the most trademark mech period.

I like the mech, but I never liked the way it looked. I will always think of the Atlas as the most trademark mech, but I started playing before madcats existed, so I have old-dude bias. It has a skull head that looks like a pool cue, how cool is that?

warboss wrote:
while there are some truly nice paintjobs shown there that display alot of skill and effort, there is no amount of polishing that will take the stink of the turd design that is the mech below...

Yes it's a turd, a beautiful glorious turd!! What more may you expect from a mech that's basically a walking AA-turret and shouldn't find itself in a mech vs mech fight ever?

It's hideous and I love it for that.

As for iconic mech, yeah the Timberwolf is very iconic but wouldn't be right on the front of a box containing mostly Inner Sphere 3025 mechs. The Warhammer is an icon for me (but for obvious reasons not featured) and it wasn't even on the cover of the edition I first bought (there was just an edition transition because I remember the Warhammer box lying in the store, maybe we're just GW brainwashed to like anything with the name 'Warhammer' ). Can't really remember what was on the front of that box though, a Zeus maybe?

So what more is iconic and not unseen or clan? Atlas (love the description Yeenoghu), Zeus, Commando, Catapult, Jenner for me. They'd fit well on any cover I think.

Something a bit related. Weren't there plans on producing a box containing the 3050 Clan Mechs (with apparently no Fire Moth but an Elemental point instead), what has become of this?

Its got nothing on the Stalker though. Big dildo with legs. They should have made that one of the premium mech figures just for laughs.

Or the Imp because it looks like some kind of 'dark place' plug.

The Mad-Cat is only a recognised mech because the computer games made it so. Pre-Clan you're looking at Warhammers, Marauders, Atlases (Atli?) and BAttlemasters. The old school heavy hitters.

That being said every one has their favourite mech and for different reasons. I love the unseen, 3025 Shadowrhawk as it as the first mech I ever piloted. It's a hunk of junk compared to other mechs. Under armed, under armoured.... but it was a still a viable unit in a 3025 game. The Battlemaster ranks highly as well as it is what I moved on to after the Shad.

From a fluff / universe POV you can't find many other games that rival BattleTech for the scope of the universe. You can follow the characters, plot on a map where the battles take place and watch as it expands from petty border raids to galaxy spanning wars and back again.

Do I think the game is without fault? No. The latest books have become a bit clunky, the new technology perhaps a little over powered. But, and it's a big but, it has lasted 25+ years without a significant change to the game mechanic (I still calculate the to hit rolls using the method I learned 20ish years ago). It's not as complex as some people make out if you play the basic game rules to start with. If you're crazy enough to jump into the expert rules on day one you deserve to struggle. But working from the basic game mechanic...

A Wasp is shooting at an Atlas (one of the smallest mechs firing at one of the heaviest in existence)

The wasp (gunnery skill 3) fires it's medium laser. He is at 4 hexes from the target (medium range), He moved 7 hexes (running) and the atlas moved 3 hexes forward.

The hit number is Base 6 (medium) +2 for running, +1 for the target movement (taken from a table) and -1 for each point the gunnery skill is below 4. For a total of 8... It's as simple as that. Roll 2D6, get 8 or more and you hit the target. (the other way to calculate is Base = gunnery skill, + 2 for medium rage, + 2 fore running, + 1 for target movement =8 )

Heat is just as easy. Each weapon has a heat value, each movement mode has a heat value, and each mech has a heat capacity. you add up all the heat you generate, you subtract the heat you can dissipate.... anything left over carries over to the next turn.

Yes, some mechs are more complex, weapons with multiple modes, technology that lets your mech do something that will affect your ability to hit / move / dissipate heat. But those are in the advanced rules in a lot of cases. just don;t play them until you're comfortable with the basics and you're fine.

Best way to learn to play? Pick up the box set, better yet pick up an old copy of the old edition with 3025 only and play a bit with the basic rules and don't be seduced by the shiny clan / 3050 / WOB tech.

What is the unseen? I haven't played a game of Battletech since '91, so I'm a little out of the loop. I loved it though, I'm looking forward to picking this up and playing again.

I love the Imp!

The fact it looks like a basketball with arms is 50% of the charm.

Intersting Note: I used to game with Chris Lewis, the guy that drew many of those mechs, out in Los Angeles at Brookhurst Hobbies.

Great guy. Although he took a lot of community flak during Project Pheonix. I still think his art is amazing.

ToBeWilly wrote:What is the unseen? I haven't played a game of Battletech since '91, so I'm a little out of the loop. I loved it though, I'm looking forward to picking this up and playing again.

Designs FASA is no longer allowed to use as the licensing is 'confused.' There's about thirty versions of it up-thread, but basically they licensed designs, then something went wrong (quite possibly not really FASA's fault) and lawsuits were initiated, sot hey can't show these designs any more. These were primarily the designs that were licensed from Macross and a few other anme shows. Some have had the licensing worked out, some have been re-designed to be uninfringing.

Balance wrote:Designs FASA is no longer allowed to use as the licensing is 'confused.' There's about thirty versions of it up-thread, but basically they licensed designs, then something went wrong (quite possibly not really FASA's fault) and lawsuits were initiated, sot hey can't show these designs any more. These were primarily the designs that were licensed from Macross and a few other anme shows. Some have had the licensing worked out, some have been re-designed to be uninfringing.

So all those 'Mechs are referred to as 'unseen'. Got it, thanks!

NecronLord3 wrote: Not to mention if you actually wanted to build a mech using the Tech manual. There is so much errata on that book that is pretty much impossible for the average person to every think about doing themselves.

There is a program called Heavy Metal Pro. Its an offical licensed product for BT so everything is 100% rules proper. It is a complete mech design workshop. You can choose tech base (IS or clan), tech level by year (3025, 3055, etc), and also by game play level (1,2,3). You have complete control of tonnage, weapons, crit locations, armor, everything. It can be expanded to add in vehicles, battle armor, and infantry. You can print the record sheet right from the program, and they look exactly like Battletech sheets. As a bonus it comes with 500 standard mech designs already loaded.

The base program CD is a whopping $22, so not much excuse for at least 1 person in any BT group to have it.

Heres a link: http://www.heavymetalpro.com/index.html

And the redesigned versions of those mechs are called "reseen", some of which are stinkers, some are quite cool in their own right, but all are differant enough from the originals that you usually need to be told what they are, and only then you start recognizing weapon layouts. I'm particularly fond of the new marauder and variants, and the new warhammer is very nice (though nowhere near as cool as the original.

I rather like the new box art, myself. Pays homage to the older editition but is recognizably differant. I find it interesting they chose the hammerhands mech instead of the reseen warhammer, although the hammerhands does have more design features in common than the reseen warhammer does for the reasons I mentioned.

yeenoghu wrote:Not really. Btech wasn't about collecting miniatures. In 40k you invest a lot of $$$ into a specific army, only to have something else come along and make it obsolete by comparison. Clan stuff upped the power level of the entire game, not just some specific players. If Btech could have codex creep, it would be like saying only Clan Wolf gets pulse lasers while clan bear gets ultra cannons or something like that. The technology and the rules are available to all players of all factions. Through inventive roleplaying 'fluff' plenty of IS forces had clan technology, even if fluffy it was rare, if you wanted a good game you don't just say 'you get 4 mechs and I get 4 mechs, you look at the BV of those mechs for an even match. Clan will always be outnumbered because their mechs are worth more.

That still seems a bit awkward. When I played BT many years ago the BV system was either unavailable or not used: everyone seemed to go by raw tonnage. As such, there was no real balancing for the Clan vs. IS stuff. Every time I look in on the BT community, the Clans seem to be a very divisive issue. It's not Codex Creep in the way GW does it, and not quite in the way Warmachine gets complaints about (new books favoring new unit types, but it's a little better since generally everyone gets new stuff), but there is a lot of evidence that it is a very big divisive junction for the community.

yeenoghu wrote:
The huge difference is in the investment. GWs WYSIWYG does not apply to a game that is more rules focused and less miniatures focused. Any player can play any mech. Scenarios dictate the mechs, not which figure collection you have. There is no codex creep in btech, just a choice of which rules you like to play. If you play 3055, double HS and XL engines exist and clan weapons are lighter and better than IS versions, if you play 3025 they haven't arrived yet, if you play 3065+ all sorts of other goodies are available, to anyone. This is not an option for someone with $2000 worth of figures having to say their Necrons are now Space Wolves because they like those rules better.

Fair enough.

Mad4Minis wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote: Not to mention if you actually wanted to build a mech using the Tech manual. There is so much errata on that book that is pretty much impossible for the average person to every think about doing themselves.

There is a program called Heavy Metal Pro. Its an offical licensed product for BT so everything is 100% rules proper. It is a complete mech design workshop. You can choose tech base (IS or clan), tech level by year (3025, 3055, etc), and also by game play level (1,2,3). You have complete control of tonnage, weapons, crit locations, armor, everything. It can be expanded to add in vehicles, battle armor, and infantry. You can print the record sheet right from the program, and they look exactly like Battletech sheets. As a bonus it comes with 500 standard mech designs already loaded.

The base program CD is a whopping $22, so not much excuse for at least 1 person in any BT group to have it.

Heres a link: http://www.heavymetalpro.com/index.html

Which hasn't been updated since BV2 was designed so the new equipment is incompatible with the program. Rick Raisley and his HM programs is one the biggest problems with Battletech to date. He hasn't come out with a fully updated program in 6 years. Hence why Solaris Skunk Works was developed by fans because Heavy Metal is so worthless and Raisley completely dropped the ball.

HBMC you still fail to realize that it is a big problem when you have to use an unofficial product just to use one element of the game. Mech design is one major element of the game that if it wasn't done for you by other people the game would be pretty screwed.

Balance wrote:
That still seems a bit awkward. When I played BT many years ago the BV system was either unavailable or not used: everyone seemed to go by raw tonnage. As such, there was no real balancing for the Clan vs. IS stuff. Every time I look in on the BT community, the Clans seem to be a very divisive issue. It's not Codex Creep in the way GW does it, and not quite in the way Warmachine gets complaints about (new books favoring new unit types, but it's a little better since generally everyone gets new stuff), but there is a lot of evidence that it is a very big divisive junction for the community.

The game is still horribly unbalanced. Just play a Hellion C(light) Vs a Sagittarire(Assault), both have damn near the same BV and the Hellion will lose everytime. And on the flip side if you play tonnage a Hellion will usually beat another light mech everytime.

I wasn't aware that people went 1 v 1 in Battletech, outside of playing a Solaris match.

No system is perfect.

Some just have less flaws than others.

My current character runs around in a Stealth STH-1D

It doesn't have a lot of firepower, but my job is to scout and find hidden enemy units, pick off stragglers, and try not to get killed. The third part is important.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote: Not to mention if you actually wanted to build a mech using the Tech manual. There is so much errata on that book that is pretty much impossible for the average person to every think about doing themselves.

There is a program called Heavy Metal Pro. Its an offical licensed product for BT so everything is 100% rules proper. It is a complete mech design workshop. You can choose tech base (IS or clan), tech level by year (3025, 3055, etc), and also by game play level (1,2,3). You have complete control of tonnage, weapons, crit locations, armor, everything. It can be expanded to add in vehicles, battle armor, and infantry. You can print the record sheet right from the program, and they look exactly like Battletech sheets. As a bonus it comes with 500 standard mech designs already loaded.

The base program CD is a whopping $22, so not much excuse for at least 1 person in any BT group to have it.

Heres a link: http://www.heavymetalpro.com/index.html

Which hasn't been updated since BV2 was designed so the new equipment is incompatible with the program. Rick Raisley and his HM programs is one the biggest problems with Battletech to date. He hasn't come out with a fully updated program in 6 years. Hence why Solaris Skunk Works was developed by fans because Heavy Metal is so worthless and Raisley completely dropped the ball.

HBMC you still fail to realize that it is a big problem when you have to use an unofficial product just to use one element of the game. Mech design is one major element of the game that if it wasn't done for you by other people the game would be pretty screwed.

Balance wrote:
That still seems a bit awkward. When I played BT many years ago the BV system was either unavailable or not used: everyone seemed to go by raw tonnage. As such, there was no real balancing for the Clan vs. IS stuff. Every time I look in on the BT community, the Clans seem to be a very divisive issue. It's not Codex Creep in the way GW does it, and not quite in the way Warmachine gets complaints about (new books favoring new unit types, but it's a little better since generally everyone gets new stuff), but there is a lot of evidence that it is a very big divisive junction for the community.

The game is still horribly unbalanced. Just play a Hellion C(light) Vs a Sagittarire(Assault), both have damn near the same BV and the Hellion will lose everytime. And on the flip side if you play tonnage a Hellion will usually beat another light mech everytime.

Ok, then let me modify my comment a bit...for anyone who wants to use 3025-3055ish tech Heavy Metal pro is great. If you want the latest most up to date stuff then its not that good. However, since most seem to like the 3055 or earlier era, HMP will do them just fine and is a great value for those who want to do a lot of designing and tweaking.


On the BV note...it has always sucked. Almost no one uses BV more than once. It is easily the most flawed part of the game system, and a good thing its optional. Besides, balanced battles are for tournaments. Regular BT games are the most fun when the mechs (on paper) are unbalanced and the scenario conditions are used to balance the fight. Those are the most fun games.

Balance wrote:

yeenoghu wrote:Not really. Btech wasn't about collecting miniatures. In 40k you invest a lot of $$$ into a specific army, only to have something else come along and make it obsolete by comparison. Clan stuff upped the power level of the entire game, not just some specific players. If Btech could have codex creep, it would be like saying only Clan Wolf gets pulse lasers while clan bear gets ultra cannons or something like that. The technology and the rules are available to all players of all factions. Through inventive roleplaying 'fluff' plenty of IS forces had clan technology, even if fluffy it was rare, if you wanted a good game you don't just say 'you get 4 mechs and I get 4 mechs, you look at the BV of those mechs for an even match. Clan will always be outnumbered because their mechs are worth more.

That still seems a bit awkward. When I played BT many years ago the BV system was either unavailable or not used: everyone seemed to go by raw tonnage. As such, there was no real balancing for the Clan vs. IS stuff. Every time I look in on the BT community, the Clans seem to be a very divisive issue. It's not Codex Creep in the way GW does it, and not quite in the way Warmachine gets complaints about (new books favoring new unit types, but it's a little better since generally everyone gets new stuff), but there is a lot of evidence that it is a very big divisive junction for the community.

yeenoghu wrote:
The huge difference is in the investment. GWs WYSIWYG does not apply to a game that is more rules focused and less miniatures focused. Any player can play any mech. Scenarios dictate the mechs, not which figure collection you have. There is no codex creep in btech, just a choice of which rules you like to play. If you play 3055, double HS and XL engines exist and clan weapons are lighter and better than IS versions, if you play 3025 they haven't arrived yet, if you play 3065+ all sorts of other goodies are available, to anyone. This is not an option for someone with $2000 worth of figures having to say their Necrons are now Space Wolves because they like those rules better.

Fair enough.

The clan thing is divisive because when the rules for better, heat efficient longer range guns on faster mechs with more armor piloted by genetically engineered super-pilots - it changed the way the game was played. moving 10/15/0 was unheard of before XL engines and such showed up. It isn't divisive like SMs complaining that SWs are more powerful. Everybody know the clans have a sloped technological high ground, there is no farcical claim that 'points value equal means evenly matched' like in GW codex creep. They have a rating for mechs called BV (battle value) which incorporates size, movement, armor, weapon systems, and heat efficiency for an overall view of a mech's performance. Many mechs of less tons have higher BV than some of the really poorly designed heavy mechs (That 65 ton Jagermech from earlier in this post has a lower BV than most mechs at 50 tons for instance, because it is such an unwieldy design). Clan technology weapons have a higher BV rating than IS weapons of the same class, so it is easy to set up 'even' matchups (usually involving about a 2-1 numerical advantage for the IS).

The divisive thing among the community is that many people did not like the game-on-steroids of clan tech rules. It isn't a complaint that clans have better stuff, it's that they don't like playing the cheesey glass-cannon style quick fix style of clan games, and like myself, prefer the clunky imperfect mechs for a longer, more interesting game. Clan games are not as tactically interesting because everyone is so damn good that things like careful management of heat problems, optimized weapon ranges, cover, use of water holes or buildings and so on play less important roles, and you may as well just be running around and around in circles trading dice rolls at each other (similar to the way MW video games are played).

I'd love to see an all new battletech update.. well maybe the rules could stay similar but all new models. Make em multi part where the model is just the legs and body, and all different arm weapons to choose from. New, modern sculpts by people who are good at sculpting and all that stuff.

Some of the iron wind models look ok but the old stuff really shows it's age. Make some awesome looking models and nerds like us will buy lots of em.

Necros wrote:I'd love to see an all new battletech update.. well maybe the rules could stay similar but all new models. Make em multi part where the model is just the legs and body, and all different arm weapons to choose from. New, modern sculpts by people who are good at sculpting and all that stuff.

The "2 unpainted, premium-quality plastic BattleMech minis" are exactly that. It was a test to see how viable what you're saying was. This will only really work with the Omni-mechs and not so much with the more rigded innersphere designs.

Necros wrote:Some of the iron wind models look ok but the old stuff really shows it's age. Make some awesome looking models and nerds like us will buy lots of em.

I don't believe they created the original sculpts for all of these.... and I know they've been working their way through the range redoing some of the fuglier sculpts.

aka_mythos wrote:This will only really work with the Omni-mechs and not so much with the more rigded innersphere designs.

Wha? Are we talking about the same inner sphere mechs that have like a bajillion variants?

Mad4Minis wrote:There is a program called Heavy Metal Pro. Its an offical licensed product for BT so everything is 100% rules proper.

Well... was. It's been a while since it was updated. Better to stick to Solaris Skunk Works, which is free and more up-to-date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:HBMC you still fail to realize that it is a big problem when you have to use an unofficial product just to use one element of the game. Mech design is one major element of the game that if it wasn't done for you by other people the game would be pretty screwed.

I've never heard of anyone having a problem designing 'Mechs, and people have been doing it for decades now. More and more homebrew 'Mechs appear all the time. You are exaggerating this problem.

NecronLord3 wrote:The game is still horribly unbalanced. Just play a Hellion C(light) Vs a Sagittarire(Assault), both have damn near the same BV and the Hellion will lose everytime. And on the flip side if you play tonnage a Hellion will usually beat another light mech everytime.

BV was invented because the fanbase called for it. The powers that be still don't like it, and while they're attempting to fix it with BV2, they still don't like it as a concept because they'd rather no boil everything in the game down to a points value. BattleTech fiction is all about uneven match-ups, white washes and underdogs. Crow-barring a points system into the game at an attempt at creating 'balance' was a bad idea to begin with, and remains so.