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I'm gonna have to cut you off on that one H.B.M.C. It is getting updated as we speak. My father is the developer of the program, and he's been working on it quite a bit. Real life tends to put things on hold for a little bit sometimes. SSW is alright, of course I'm biased to HMPro. HeavyMetal Pro 6 shouldn't be too much longer really. Lots of red tape getting everything correct. He and I have been playtesters for Battletech since about 1995 in the days of FASA, and we've been playing since 1989.

Alot of work goes into those programs, and the code doesn't always come quickly. HMPro6 will be the basis for the new series of programs that are planned to be released, such as Vee, Lite, Aero, and Battle Armor. Much of the code of those progams comes from the original.

We know Rick Raisley works hard on the HM stuff (and I fully accept your bias) but we can't believe "shouldn't be too much longer" anymore.

I like HMP better than SSW myself, but TW came out on 2006. He's almost FIVE YEARS behind the curve. I can appreciate life getting in the way and all, but the job should have been passed to someone who could dedicate to it full time.

I look at it this way: If you were behind that far for a project at work, do you think your company should still keep you on the job, or even keep you employed?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:There is a program called Heavy Metal Pro. Its an offical licensed product for BT so everything is 100% rules proper.

Well... was. It's been a while since it was updated. Better to stick to Solaris Skunk Works, which is free and more up-to-date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:HBMC you still fail to realize that it is a big problem when you have to use an unofficial product just to use one element of the game. Mech design is one major element of the game that if it wasn't done for you by other people the game would be pretty screwed.

I've never heard of anyone having a problem designing 'Mechs, and people have been doing it for decades now. More and more homebrew 'Mechs appear all the time. You are exaggerating this problem.

NecronLord3 wrote:The game is still horribly unbalanced. Just play a Hellion C(light) Vs a Sagittarire(Assault), both have damn near the same BV and the Hellion will lose everytime. And on the flip side if you play tonnage a Hellion will usually beat another light mech everytime.

BV was invented because the fanbase called for it. The powers that be still don't like it, and while they're attempting to fix it with BV2, they still don't like it as a concept because they'd rather no boil everything in the game down to a points value. BattleTech fiction is all about uneven match-ups, white washes and underdogs. Crow-barring a points system into the game at an attempt at creating 'balance' was a bad idea to begin with, and remains so.

Agree with all of your points HBMC; since '87, when I began playing Battletech, mech design was pretty simple and formulated well enough that anyone could do it. Come circa '90 with the 3050 release with new equipment, it was updated a bit, but still easy enough.

As far as HMPro goes, I use it, but only for the periods it has listed in its databse. It's good if you want to run from 3025-3060 roughly, but that's about the extent of the program as others have mentioned, it hasn't been updated in roughly 6 years.

The BV 2.0 system isn't so bad, if that's what you're looking for in a tourney setting, but you're right-on with the square-peg/round-hole idea of trying to jam a 'balance' style system into it.
The game is exactly how you describe it; uneven matchups where skill (reg, vet, elites) and maneuver decides some of the outcomes. Additionally, the system allows for 'lucky' shots that are disabling to an opposing mech. This is something other game-systems do not allow for. I can't count the times where an outclassed mech got the 3-crit 'lucky' hit on a center-torso of an opposing mech which shutdown to those 3-engine hits or some cooked-off ammunition cassette that was slotted there...lol!

A group of players can easily pick the rules they want to run with in their system, so like I've mentioned before, it is what you make of it.

Regarding the designers not wanting BV. I agree. I think it's cool that Jaime Wolf piloted an Archer of all things. Not a horrible mech but not exactly the most flashy mech either. Rhonda Snord and a Shadowhawk, Natasha K in a Warhammer. Not top of the line state of the art elite technology, just mechs.

The game was created during the classical age of tabletop and paper and pencil games. Advanced Dungeons and Dragons era, when gameplay, scenarios, and balance were up to a DM or referee. U.S. Civil War battles refought with miniatures (yeah the south and the north both had the same number of points for their armies, right?)

This concept escapes people who have to play competatively by precise rules, and need a system to spell out what 'sportsmanship' points are awarded for. The idea of scenario/situational gaming is kind of lost on the newer generation of win/loss ratio competative matchup thinking gaming.

Since there was no such thing as a tournament circuit that needed specific points balance from one game to the next to keep the anal competition bureaucrats from whining, a scenario was how you played. Barring that, players just agreed on what would make for a fun matchup.

The BV thing emerged around the same time as MtG became popular in its first inception. Suddenly, competative win/loss ratio became the only way to play at cons. and BV was a wayto attempt to standardize matchups. Coincidence?

Tonnage is nowhere near as good a way to express a mech's value. The poor 65 ton Jagermech (I know I'm beating this guy to death) doesn't stand a chance against a 65 ton Crusader or Thunderbolt, not even with extreme luck or skill.

No, you're right, there's nothing 'wrong' with BV2. As far as systems go it works well enough. It's just not required IMO, and I tend to ignore it.

Lord_Astaroth wrote:I'm gonna have to cut you off on that one H.B.M.C.

Cut me off all you like, but I've heard everything you've said before, and years ago. As Mattlov said, I can appreciate 'Real Life' getting in the way of such things, but we have all heard the 'Coming Soon' speech before.

HMP is in a situation where it is now put up or shut up. Telling us for the 5th year in a row that it isn't far away does not fill us with confidence, it just re-fills our scepticism.

And if course you favour HMP. I don’t. I always found HMP’s interface to be needlessly complex and clunky. I was always a child of The Drawing Board, of which Solaris Skunk Works is the spiritual successor (in both method and form). But that’s a personal preference, and not a statement of fact.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Davor wrote:What is with all the Battletech hate here?

Who knows? I mean, War Machine, Hordes, Infinity, Malifaux and half a dozen other games get the focus here all the time without so much vitriol levelled at them. But mention Battletech and we get a veritable shitstorm of negativity what with all the clueless people making statements about FASA ‘ripping off’ Macross (they didn’t), or how they went out of business because of it (they didn’t) and then all the Heavy Gear trolls crawl out of the woodwork to try and tell us that their big smashy robot is game is better than this big smashy robot game.

It is quite perplexing.

Most HG gamers are fairly nice. The ones that aren't are real pieces of work, but there is exactly one instance in this thread of a guy being a douche in regard to Btech and suggesting HG instead. The others who have mentioned HG in passing (or are affiliated with dp9) are talking about conversion possibilities, or are concentrating on making sure people know FASA didn't rip people off. Suggesting they are trolls only does disservice to yourself and to the thread.

Back on topic: anyone seen the sprues/pieces for the two multiparts in the box? I keep hearing about them, but have no reference.


-John

Jbuckmaster wrote:Most HG gamers are fairly nice. The ones that aren't are real pieces of work, but there is exactly one instance in this thread of a guy being a douche in regard to Btech and suggesting HG instead. The others who have mentioned HG in passing (or are affiliated with dp9) are talking about conversion possibilities, or are concentrating on making sure people know FASA didn't rip people off. Suggesting they are trolls only does disservice to yourself and to the thread.

Down boy! I was referring to that particular troll in my post, however obliquely, and not all Heavy Gear players.

I dont see HG as a alternative to BT. First, the gears are sized more like large battlesuits than mechs. second, it is a far more combined arms game. BT is primarily about mechs. The flavors of the games are very different.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:The difficulty with the copywrite issue is that these robots were THE SAME. They didn't even have the courtesy to remove all of the robotech marking from the models, or even do the courtesy of the robotec fans to even agknowledge the idea. So in that respect, I can understand the responses.

What are you blithering about? You’re making it out that FASA simply took the designs from Macross (and a few other places) wholesale, didn’t tell anyone that they did, and then started using them in the hope that no one would notice. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

As for the comparison between the box-art... yeah, that’s intentional. Isn’t that obvious? It’s a homage to the classic box art of the game. The ‘Mech that’s being used there on the new box, the Hammerhands, is described in the fluff as the forerunner to the venerable Warhammer (the ‘Mech on the original box). It’s designed as a piece of nostalgia, not some sneaky attempt to rewrite history or pretend that what happened with the Unseen didn’t happen.

Put it back in your pants there, highspeed.

If that's what you got out of what I wrote, your missing it, entirly, but thanks for saying the same thing. I wrote that the rules were good for the game and part of why people liked it. The robots themselves were meh, but they were what was going on at the time and that they were nothing to do with ripping off anything.

You might have missed the part where I put in the obligatory references, which pretty much said the same thing. You also must have missed it when I wrote that I like the game. I liked it then, and I like it now. I haven't played it in ages, but it was a pretty cool game, even with the cardboard cutouts...

Even after reading, rereading and reading what you wrote in response, you are already entrenched, so everybody else must be wrong but you. Nevermind that we're saying the same thing.

As to the robots themselves, I was building those SAME ROBOTS, regarless of the fact that they had ROBOTECH, BATTLETECH, SHOGUN WARRIORS, TRANSFORMERS, MACROSS, BEETRASS, etc... on them.

If you missed it again, I was playing with those models well along a year or so prior to either the ROBOTECH, or the Battletech thing. They had some other name that didn't have anything to do with either of those brands, and... AGAIN... Giant robots were what SOLD at the time. Want to remember about those horrible transformer rip offs, the GO-BOTS? How about MIRCONAUTS/ COSMO-MAN, and the other myrid of preanime things that were all over the market. Robots were the thing, and the game was snatched up like candy, even before the minis started even seeing the light of day.
MY memory serves me pretty good, I even remember when the mini's came in the blue blisterpacks, and were exactly like the ones in the book.

good times, man.... good times.

Forget it, man, we're saying the same thing about the same thing, I'm writing my stuff from how I saw it, which might have been a little different then alot of you.

Here, for postarity, out of my posterior.....

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=319060&page=2

My post was for Mr Haterade, anyway, who was !@#$'n about the models being robotech and posting about his one man boycott.

Bottom line up front, those robots at the time were just generic toy giant robots.

Mattlov wrote:We know Rick Raisley works hard on the HM stuff (and I fully accept your bias) but we can't believe "shouldn't be too much longer" anymore.

I like HMP better than SSW myself, but TW came out on 2006. He's almost FIVE YEARS behind the curve. I can appreciate life getting in the way and all, but the job should have been passed to someone who could dedicate to it full time.

I look at it this way: If you were behind that far for a project at work, do you think your company should still keep you on the job, or even keep you employed?

I disagree. If it's a free project that is done by the developer as a give-back to the community then it's hard for me to feel that there's any one real onus. I doubt there's anything legally binding to make it the 'only' allowed design application, so the Solaris Skunk Works can compete on an even field and everyone is cool. If Catalyst was paying dev costs, there might be expectations, but from the sound of it it's a labor of love.

Balance wrote:

Mattlov wrote:We know Rick Raisley works hard on the HM stuff (and I fully accept your bias) but we can't believe "shouldn't be too much longer" anymore.

I like HMP better than SSW myself, but TW came out on 2006. He's almost FIVE YEARS behind the curve. I can appreciate life getting in the way and all, but the job should have been passed to someone who could dedicate to it full time.

I look at it this way: If you were behind that far for a project at work, do you think your company should still keep you on the job, or even keep you employed?

I disagree. If it's a free project that is done by the developer as a give-back to the community then it's hard for me to feel that there's any one real onus. I doubt there's anything legally binding to make it the 'only' allowed design application, so the Solaris Skunk Works can compete on an even field and everyone is cool. If Catalyst was paying dev costs, there might be expectations, but from the sound of it it's a labor of love.

Heavy Metal is NOT a free program, though. It is still the "official" software for Battletech unit creation, and is that far behind. That is an issue.

Mattlov wrote:Heavy Metal is NOT a free program, though. It is still the "official" software for Battletech unit creation, and is that far behind. That is an issue.

Then I withdraw a bunch of my comments. I'm used to the HG scene, where the Gear Garage army construction tool is fan made and free, and pretty cool (But it's definitely a work-in-progress). Still, if it's outdated, use Solaris Skunk Works and try to get that made official, if that really means anything...

(Note: GG is not a vehicle designer, more of a tool to calculate army point values and list compliance.)

H.B.M.C. wrote:No, you're right, there's nothing 'wrong' with BV2. As far as systems go it works well enough. It's just not required IMO, and I tend to ignore it.

Lord_Astaroth wrote:I'm gonna have to cut you off on that one H.B.M.C.

Cut me off all you like, but I've heard everything you've said before, and years ago. As Mattlov said, I can appreciate 'Real Life' getting in the way of such things, but we have all heard the 'Coming Soon' speech before.

HMP is in a situation where it is now put up or shut up. Telling us for the 5th year in a row that it isn't far away does not fill us with confidence, it just re-fills our scepticism.

And if course you favour HMP. I don’t. I always found HMP’s interface to be needlessly complex and clunky. I was always a child of The Drawing Board, of which Solaris Skunk Works is the spiritual successor (in both method and form). But that’s a personal preference, and not a statement of fact.

Of course, and everybody is entitled to their own opinions. That's why there are choices in life. I for one was never a Drawing Board fan as it was too basic and did not do the job for people that wanted the more complex things out of a what can be extremely complex game.

I'm not here to make excuses, but without putting personal life info in the internet for people to judge and ridicule, they will have to take the explanation for what it is worth. I'm not trying to start a flame war in any way shape or form. It is not my intent. I just know all the blood and sweat that goes into those programs. As for the "Telling us for the 5th year in a row that it isn't far away does not fill us with confidence, it just re-fills our scepticism." I do understand. But it is completely true. Many books have been added since he has started writing HMPro6, and the developers want the new rules that are included in these books in the new version of the program. Being playtesters, we have access to addition information on new books coming out that they are wanting added, and it keeps stacking up and is difficult to keep up. I'd do some programming myself, but my programming skills are next to none.

Also Mattlove. Regarding the "I look at it this way: If you were behind that far for a project at work, do you think your company should still keep you on the job, or even keep you employed?"
Perhaps you are not aware, but he actually had a full time job and just recently retired (less than a couple months ago).

That's my two cents, and take it for what you want. The purpose of my post was indeed to inform that the program is being worked on, and that's a fact. The main thing I wiould like to add is that I'm very pleased at the intrest in Battletech that so many people still have, and that's what it's really about. The hobby.

Thanks!

Grot 6, that link was great. I'll have to spend some more time over there looking around.

I love all things Mecha. So I have all the Robotech novels and movies, but this is my Holy Grail.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/192191-Robotech%20Factory.html

Everything inside is still sealed. I only removed the wrap to make sure it was complete.

TalonZahn wrote:I love all things Mecha. So I have all the Robotech novels and movies, but this is my Holy Grail.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/192191-Robotech%20Factory.html

As a heads-up, there's some kits from various companies that do 'bays' kind of like that if you ever want any for modeling. They're not the same, but if yo don't want to open a collectible, they're pretty cool.

Balance wrote:As a heads-up, there's some kits from various companies that do 'bays' kind of like that if you ever want any for modeling. They're not the same, but if yo don't want to open a collectible, they're pretty cool.

I have the 4 smaller ones made by ARII, MISB on the shelf also.

ARII also makes that large kit and 2 half kits of pretty much the same thing. Someday, they will be mine.

Go to EBay and lookup "Robotech Factory". There's one in the UK, but I didn't spend quite that much for it.

robertsjf wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:This will only really work with the Omni-mechs and not so much with the more rigded innersphere designs.

Wha? Are we talking about the same inner sphere mechs that have like a bajillion variants?

I was trying to emphasize where the greatest value in these types of kits while contrasting it with the biggest weakness to the type of kit. I was being more specific than just to say "innersphere" mechs... I meant the ones that don't have real variants or where the variants are almost too different to fit in a suitably sized kit relative to other mechs in the same class.

TalonZahn wrote:Grot 6, that link was great. I'll have to spend some more time over there looking around.

I love all things Mecha. So I have all the Robotech novels and movies, but this is my Holy Grail.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/192191-Robotech%20Factory.html

Everything inside is still sealed. I only removed the wrap to make sure it was complete.

I remember building and painting that many years ago...


I've played Battletech since the original 'Battleddroids' game was released. I used to play every week for a few years but interest fizzled out with the guys I used to play against when the Clans appeared. Up til then we used to design our own mechs (very few standard designs were ever used) and just decide on a tonnage for the next battle, no need for a points system. With the emergence of the Clans and their super mechs and weaponry tonnage didn't work any more...

This anniversary set could be a re-introduction for me but I will be using only pre-Clan tech

Mick

I always liked Battletech, but there are only so many hours I can devote to minis gaming, and I haven't played in years. Ironically this is the same issue that keeps me from getting into Heavy Gear, which also looks pretty good. In any case I don't think there's anything wrong or bad about either game. A little streamlining here or there with stuff picked up over 25 years probably wouldn't hurt though.

I did pick up the excellent Sword and Dragon campaign. I was impressed, though there were a bunch of editing problems and some left out stuff, it did inspire me. Catalyst ought to focus more on stuff like that.

I never cared for the Clan plotline. Give me 3025 and 3050 any day!

yeenoghu wrote:

The game was created during the classical age of tabletop and paper and pencil games. Advanced Dungeons and Dragons era, when gameplay, scenarios, and balance were up to a DM or referee.

This concept escapes people who have to play competitively by precise rules, and need a system to spell out what 'sportsmanship' points are awarded for. The idea of scenario/situational gaming is kind of lost on the newer generation of win/loss ratio competitive matchup thinking gaming.

Since there was no such thing as a tournament circuit that needed specific points balance from one game to the next to keep the anal competition bureaucrats from whining, a scenario was how you played. Barring that, players just agreed on what would make for a fun matchup.

Quoted for truth.

I think wargaming in general suffers from the "mathahmmer/sportshammer" mentality too much these day...

I think in those days they just had a realistic sense that in a competitive atmosphere its unrealistic to expect players to self regulate themselves all the time. Just imagine a football game without a referee... where every dispute is settled with a coin toss it could only work for so long.

So uh.. if it's okay with you guys, my buddy pre ordered a box from the Warstore ($40!) and we intend to play the game and have fun.

If that's alright.

As long as you pour a little booze out for my homey's over at robotech.com

sourclams wrote:So uh.. if it's okay with you guys, my buddy pre ordered a box from the Warstore ($40!) and we intend to play the game and have fun.

Enjoy!

I'm an old gamer, who can't part with anything. I still have my boxed Battletech. Citytech, Areotech, and Battleforce. We played the hell out of these games when I was a kid.... mainly Battletech and Citytech. Never got into Aerotech or battleforce.

I also prefer the earlier mechs. The later mechs looked like potatos with cannons.

sourclams wrote:So uh.. if it's okay with you guys, my buddy pre ordered a box from the Warstore ($40!) and we intend to play the game and have fun.

If that's alright.

Double for you guys. I love the Warstore. Sometime over the weekend Im going to preorder both the 25th battletech box and Mantics Dwarf Kings HOld, they have both up for preorder. $47.99 for the mantic game, $39.99 for battletech.

sourclams wrote:So uh.. if it's okay with you guys, my buddy pre ordered a box from the Warstore ($40!) and we intend to play the game and have fun.

If that's alright.

We play twice a month. It's a fun game. I'm just debating the purchase because my friend has the old boxed set. It's been said so far that many/most of the models are the same. I want to see the set before I make the call for me.

Logan's World Expatriate wrote: The later mechs looked like potatos with cannons.

I have never heard it said like that. Never knew how to express why aesthetically I didn't like the newer mech looks and you pretty much nailed it.

The thing I really liked about the 3025 setting was that your mech was normally a heirloom handed down from generation to generation and was a mechwarriors livelyhood. Without a mech you were dispossesed and possibly shunned. When you play the game along those lines it becomes so much more tactical and enjoyable, do you risk another round of combat with half the armour missing or do you pull out while you still have a chance?

Try it, you might enjoy it...

Mick )

It also works with many players, each having their own mech. 4 on 4 battle with one or two mechs per player is a good evening long game and you actually care about your mech because when it dies, you're out, even if your team wins the game, you don't want to risk losing your mech doing so.