Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2012/01/10 23:10:04
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
DarknessEternal wrote:He can't make a DoG attack even with zero weapons destroyed according to strict RAW. He's not carrying those weapon, they are his arms. A model can only DoG with carried weapons.
I think you would have a very hard time trying to convince that weapons are not "carried" by vehicles. Hell, write "dreadnought" and "weapons" in google and see for yourself. I think it's safe to say that weapon is carried by a vehicle.
BeRzErKeR wrote:I already have. 'Counts as' firing a ranged weapon means 'functions in exactly the same manner as a ranged weapon'. If something functions in exactly the same manner as a ranged weapon, that means it can be used whenever a ranged weapon can be used. If it couldn't be used whenever a ranged weapon can be used, it wouldn't be functioning in exactly the same manner, and then it could not be considered to 'count as' a ranged weapon.
If you are proposing that the phrase 'counts as' actually has a different definition, please tell me what that different definition is. What I've stated here is common English; since Games Workshop hasn't given us a jargon definition, this is the one we have to use.
That is not what I was saying. If it runs like a horse it can be a zebra. "Count as" has nothing to do with this discussion. Count as firing like a weapon and count as being a weapon is the important part and different enough for me. PSAs don't function exactly as a ranged weapon. Only a part of their functionality is borrowed from weapons. I do however agree with a bolded part in your quote and that is why I personally would allow PSAs on DoG.
When it comes to the actual effects, it doesn't matter when the spinning occurs. Tank Shocking requires that you declare how far the tank is moving beforehand; if that distance would place it atop or move it through another model, a Tank Shock occurs. DoG specifically states that unless you STOP the tank by Destroying, Stunning, Exploding or Immobilizing it, the model attempting DoG is killed. So regardless of when the spinning happens, your Farseer still dies unless he STOPS the tank, and the squad Falls Back automatically. For the third time; a good way to commit suicide without accomplishing anything.
How the movement of the vehicle is affected is an open question; I'm actually inclined to think that it isn't affected at all, regardless of whether the vehicle gets turned around or not. But that isn't the question we're discussing, in any case; whether the tank's movement is modified or not, the Farseer dies and the unit falls back. There's no problem, all the rules are working fine.
BeRzErKeR wrote:I'm just not trying to claim that I know the RAW used a common word to mean only one of two possible things, particularly when one option causes no problems whatsoever with the game, and the other causes several.
Again, I don't care about farseer. I don't care about his unit either. It can get killed and your whole squad along with vehicle can get re-rollable 2+ inv save. Preventing your vehicle from getting to objective by spinning it half way is the most important and only important issue. So spinning matters because when it it occurs can win/loose me the game.
How is open question no problem whatsoever? There will be problems and discussions about strange effects of psychic powers in DoG. Please do tell how is excluding PSAs causing several problems?
FYI: In a friendly game I would in fact allow PSAs on DoG. I really don't care that much and they are always fun no matter the outcome. But for a sake of argument in YMDC I don't think they are supposed to be allowed.
Good things are good,.. so it's good
Keep our city clean.
Report your death to the Department of Expiration
2012/01/11 00:11:20
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
BeRzErKeR wrote:I already have. 'Counts as' firing a ranged weapon means 'functions in exactly the same manner as a ranged weapon'. If something functions in exactly the same manner as a ranged weapon, that means it can be used whenever a ranged weapon can be used. If it couldn't be used whenever a ranged weapon can be used, it wouldn't be functioning in exactly the same manner, and then it could not be considered to 'count as' a ranged weapon.
If you are proposing that the phrase 'counts as' actually has a different definition, please tell me what that different definition is. What I've stated here is common English; since Games Workshop hasn't given us a jargon definition, this is the one we have to use.
That is not what I was saying. If it runs like a horse it can be a zebra. "Count as" has nothing to do with this discussion. Count as firing like a weapon and count as being a weapon is the important part and different enough for me. PSAs don't function exactly as a ranged weapon. Only a part of their functionality is borrowed from weapons. I do however agree with a bolded part in your quote and that is why I personally would allow PSAs on DoG.
You're still missing the important bit. Using a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon. It doesn't count as firing LIKE a ranged weapon, it counts AS firing a weapon, which means that it's exactly the same.
A zebra which runs on four hooved, digitigrade legs like a horse does still does not 'count as' a running horse; it's a running zebra, and zebras are different animals than horses. There exists a difference between the two, namely zebra-ness versus horse-ness. But a firing PSA 'counts as' a firing ranged weapon. There exists NO difference between them. Do you see what that means? In order to be EXACTLY like a ranged weapon, it must for all intents and purposes BE a ranged weapon, at that instant. Which means that it can be used for anything a ranged weapon can be used for, including DoG.
To draw a more exact analogy; you own a handgun. I own a magic knife which, whenever I say a certain word, 'counts as' an identical handgun for five minutes. What does that mean? It means that for five minutes after I say the word I can cock and uncock the knife, sight down the barrel of the knife, load and unload the knife with the proper caliber of ammunition, strip and clean the knife, put the safety on the knife (or take it off), attach the proper size of accessories such as silencers to the knife, and fire cartridges of the proper caliber from the knife with exactly the same accuracy, report, recoil, and destructive effect as your handgun. However, during that time I CANNOT whittle with the knife, chop vegetables with it, shave with it (assuming I could shave with it at any time), cut my initials into a tree with it, hold the handle in a standard knife-grip or stab someone with it, because while it 'counts as' a handgun it has no blade, only a barrel, and a pistol-grip rather than a knife's handle. The knife IS, for all intents and purposes, a handgun, until such time as it no longer 'counts as' one. That's what 'counts as' means, and that's why you can do something that 'counts as' firing a ranged weapon any time you are allowed to fire a ranged weapon.
Macok wrote:
When it comes to the actual effects, it doesn't matter when the spinning occurs. Tank Shocking requires that you declare how far the tank is moving beforehand; if that distance would place it atop or move it through another model, a Tank Shock occurs. DoG specifically states that unless you STOP the tank by Destroying, Stunning, Exploding or Immobilizing it, the model attempting DoG is killed. So regardless of when the spinning happens, your Farseer still dies unless he STOPS the tank, and the squad Falls Back automatically. For the third time; a good way to commit suicide without accomplishing anything.
How the movement of the vehicle is affected is an open question; I'm actually inclined to think that it isn't affected at all, regardless of whether the vehicle gets turned around or not. But that isn't the question we're discussing, in any case; whether the tank's movement is modified or not, the Farseer dies and the unit falls back. There's no problem, all the rules are working fine.
BeRzErKeR wrote:I'm just not trying to claim that I know the RAW used a common word to mean only one of two possible things, particularly when one option causes no problems whatsoever with the game, and the other causes several.
Again, I don't care about farseer. I don't care about his unit either. It can get killed and your whole squad along with vehicle can get re-rollable 2+ inv save. Preventing your vehicle from getting to objective by spinning it half way is the most important and only important issue. So spinning matters because when it it occurs can win/loose me the game.
How is open question no problem whatsoever? There will be problems and discussions about strange effects of psychic powers in DoG. Please do tell how is excluding PSAs causing several problems?
First point; What I meant by "there's no problem" is that there are no problems with the DoG rules. Yes, any ability can change the tactical situation; but my point was that the movement of a vehicle that is hit with Eldritch Storm during a Tank Shock is irrelevant to the question we're discussing. It's an interesting question, but it is not THIS question, and it does not have anything to say on the subject of whether PSAs can be used in a DoG attempt.
As to the problems excluding PSAs causes; I have already explained that, in one of my previous posts. I'll quote myself here, for simplicity's sake.
BeRzErKeR wrote:The second objection is that the PSA is not 'carried' by the model, and the DoG rules require that you use a 'carried' weapon. This depends on how you define 'carried in the context of 40k. If you interpret 'carried' to mean 'present on the model's profile/list of wargear & abilities' (which I do, for the sake of simplicity) then it's wrong; the PSA is 'carried', and when used it counts as a weapon. However, if you interpret 'carried' to mean 'physically carried the model, WYSIWYG' then it's correct; PSAs are usually not modeled on the figure, and so cannot be used in DoG. However, this interpretation leaves us with a rule that is both curiously inconsistent and has some unfortunate side-effects.
The most obvious issue is that any psyker which DOES happen to have a psychic power represented visually CAN use it in DoG; if your Librarian Dreadnought has a Blood Lance spewing out of its shoulder, it can DoG with it, because it is clearly 'carrying' it and it counts as a ranged weapon when used. That's modeling for advantage under this interpretation, since it gives the psyker an ability that the standard miniature doesn't have.
Also, Obliterators do not have enough guns modeled onto their bodies to represent all of their possible weapon options. If you follow the second interpretation of 'carried', you'll need to ask your opponent which weapon each modeled gun-barrel represents and record them somewhere, as any weapons not present on the model cannot be used for DoG. Arguably, they can't use their Power Fists either. Of course, modifying the standard Citadel miniature to have more guns or obvious Power Fists would be modeling for advantage.
In addition, If a player happens to have upgraded a unit with grenades or meltabombs, and hasn't physically placed grenades on the models, they cannot be used for DoG. Since you're technically supposed to represent all optional equipment in WYSIWYG manner, this CAN be fixed without modeling for advantage.
And finally, if for whatever reason someone has posed their model in such a manner that a weapon is not actually touching them (If your Clown Marine is juggling his Meltagun and you've held it up in midair with a bit of wire, to give a silly example), or has a minor piece of 'counts-as' instead of the weapon (A Khornate Chaos Lord using an Ultramarine corpse as a Power Fist, for example, or the old Ghazghkull model which has a curved sword instead of a Power Klaw), that weapon ALSO cannot be used in DoG, because of course the model isn't 'carrying' it. Since this would require significant conversion (except in the case of the old Ghazghkull model), under this interpretation doing so would be modeling for DISadvantage, and while there's no specific RAW behind it GW has indicated repeatedly in their rulebooks that they do not penalize players for creative modeling and posing.
Now, all that said; if you're convinced the second interpretation is correct, AND willing to accept all the other issues it causes, then you are technically just as correct as those who choose to accept the first interpretation. However, if you disallow PSAs in DoG but still let other models use their non-modeled meltabombs, Obliterators use their Power Fists, or converted models use their counts-as weapons, I'm afraid you're wrong. You can have it one way or the other RAW, but you cannot disallow ONLY PSAs and not the other things without a house rule.
Bold added for emphasis.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/11 00:19:23
2012/01/11 01:28:15
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
@ BeRzErKeR
No offence was intended at my prior comment. Im pretty sure that you are aware of that but since sarcasm and other forms of communication can be hard to detect in written word i just wanted to clarifty this to be sure.
I also 100% agree with the counts as interpretation that you put forth.
The psychic ability counts as a ranged attack. Therefor it is useable in any situation that a ranged attack is usable in. I made my prior point about the dreadnought being unable to attack, because the strictly literal interpretation of the rules without also using logic can lead to a lot of rules making very little sense, as Puma has pointed out amply while sighting the fact that Lysander cant technically use Bolster defences since he is not a tech marine. We can infer that Lysander is meant to be able to use the rule but RAW he is not allowed to use the rule. I believe that we can infer that psychic attacks should be allowed in a DOG action since they count as a ranged attack or a close combat attack in all ways except for the use of the word CARRIED. All the hair splitting about the use of this word leads to 6 page threads that show no sign of any resolution being possible.
Pestilence Provides.
2012/01/11 01:52:50
Subject: Re:Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
Macok wrote:I think you would have a very hard time trying to convince that weapons are not "carried" by vehicles. Hell, write "dreadnought" and "weapons" in google and see for yourself. I think it's safe to say that weapon is carried by a vehicle.
I have two arms, yet you cannot say that I carry two arms. In the same manner, a Dreadnought's arms are his guns. He cannot be said to be carrying them. I'm not sure if Crisis suits could be said to be carrying their weapons; the weapons are attached to the suit. I wear a wristwatch and glasses, but I do not carry them. I wear the shirt on my back, I don't carry it. Tyranid ranged weapons are all part of the host creature, so they cannot be used to DoG as they are not carried.
Obviously, the rules allow the use of PSA for DoG, but I don't see any such allowance to ignore some PSA's requirement to be manifested in the shooting phase. Of course, I'd allow it, but I wouldn't push to hard to use them myself.
DR:90S+G++MB+I+Pw40k07++D++A++/eWD-R+++T(Ot)DM+
2012/01/11 08:50:23
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
Yes, it is, but these are the guys insisting on a strict RAW interpretation. They reap what they sow.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2012/01/11 15:04:26
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
Personally I say no to psychic powers and here's why:
1. If we allow some psychic powers we must allow ALL psychic powers.
2. If we allow psychic powers, we need to determine how they all interact with DoG. Things like Warp Lance, no problem. It has a ranged weapon profile and cannot do anything a ranged weapon cannot. Eldritch Storm on the other hand, let's say you declare 6". You move forward 2. My farseer gets a weapon destroyed result and spins the tank so it's facing a different direction. Now we have to argue if it goes in the new direction or the old direction as there are no rules covering this.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2012/01/11 15:10:44
Subject: Re:Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
I can't remember the wording exactly, but the rule goes something like "The selected model makes a SINGLE attack from any weapon or wargear they are carrying" so in my mind that would include psychic powers, but you can only make a single attack.
2012/01/11 15:16:38
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
Happyjew wrote:Personally I say no to psychic powers and here's why:
1. If we allow some psychic powers we must allow ALL psychic powers.
2. If we allow psychic powers, we need to determine how they all interact with DoG. Things like Warp Lance, no problem. It has a ranged weapon profile and cannot do anything a ranged weapon cannot. Eldritch Storm on the other hand, let's say you declare 6". You move forward 2. My farseer gets a weapon destroyed result and spins the tank so it's facing a different direction. Now we have to argue if it goes in the new direction or the old direction as there are no rules covering this.
1. Wrong. It's been well-established that MOST psychic powers are not allowed in DoG; the only ones under discussion are Psychic Shooting Attacks, because they are the only ones which count as ranged weapons.
2. That is a question that needs to be thought about, yes. . . but it has nothing to do with the DoG itself. What happens in terms of the DoG is perfectly clear; you didn't stop the tank, so the Farseer dies. The fact that the rules force you to consider a situation that you had not considered before does not change what they say.
2012/01/11 16:59:27
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
You know there's trouble at t'mill when the dictionaries come out ...
The Oxford dictionary, carry ...
transport in vehicle, ship, aircraft, hand, or mind, or on person ...
... so even vehicles without hands carry people/objects, hands carry stuff (!!!), minds carry thoughts (psychic powers) and things can be carried on your person, such as in pockets or backpacks.
I have nailed a pizza to my head, everywhere I go, I am now carrying it.
It seems to me, that in this case, carrying a weapon, is synonimous with being equipped with one.
That is, a close combat weapon, a ranged weapon, or something that functions in that capacity.
If you were daft enough (lets say you are) to tank shock my wraithlord.
My wraithlord is "equipped" with a bright lance.
We have all seen them modelled with their guns, weilded in their hands. Does this mean a model of this type is functionally different to one with a shoulder mounted weapon? = no, of course not.
The wraithlord "carries" the lance, regardless of its location on the model.
So what about the wraithsword?
I am entitled to use any weapon I carry, because of the way this is modelled (ie, weilded in a hand), does this mean I can use my "monstrous creature" type attack, whereas, if the model wasn't holding a weapon, I couldn't???
What a lot of rubbish!
You wart-ridden imbeciles!
2012/01/11 17:32:27
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2012/01/11 18:35:46
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
Happyjew wrote:I wasn't expecting a sort of Spanish inquisition.
I had to, i'm sorry; it's internet law. I'll re-leave the discussion again now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/11 18:36:09
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
2012/01/11 19:22:39
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
RustyKnight wrote:I have two arms, yet you cannot say that I carry two arms. In the same manner, a Dreadnought's arms are his guns. He cannot be said to be carrying them. I'm not sure if Crisis suits could be said to be carrying their weapons; the weapons are attached to the suit. I wear a wristwatch and glasses, but I do not carry them. I wear the shirt on my back, I don't carry it. Tyranid ranged weapons are all part of the host creature, so they cannot be used to DoG as they are not carried.
DarknessEternal wrote:
fuusa wrote:
This "carry" argument is laughable.
Yes, it is, but these are the guys insisting on a strict RAW interpretation. They reap what they sow.
Just google what APC stands for. Vehicles are perfectly capable of carrying.
What is next? You will try to tell that people can't speak? Carrying argument *is* laughable.
FYI: "We" don't reap what we saw. YMDC is for interpreting RAW. You could as easily go and try to stop people from proposing rules in "40K Proposed Rules" section. Almost all people who are incredible anal about rules here don't play them that way. Discussing rules on a internet board made for discussing rules and playing is two totally separate things. Grow up and understand that finally.
In addition don't just band everybody because they enjoy talking about the rules. For the last time: talking about rules is not forcing anybody to play like that. I even specifically stated that I would allow DoGs in friendlies.
Please, join the discussion but not like that.
Back on topic:
@BeRzErKeR
My Storm part was addressed at "no problems whatsoever" with PSAs on DoG. PSAs are usually more complex than weapons and may cause problems. But that is just my feelings not based by rules at all, so..
As for "juggling" weapons and not modelling them on the miniature. Carrying does not mean that somebody is holding a thing in his hand all the time.
You could easily say that some knight was carrying gifts for his king when they were actually safely strapped to the horse. The horse who was being led by a squire walking far behind said knight. As far as I'm concerned there is no issue about carrying PSAs.
In the and I guess we simply won't agree on the "shoots as a weapon" and "is a weapon". I just think that those two are different and can lead to some different results from two rules interaction. There are more discussions very similar to this problem like: first turn dangerous from Writhing Worldscape or Tempest's Wrath against Jump Infantry / something moving as Jump Infantry etc.
And I don't agree on your logic behind "Weapon Destroyed" on PSAs. How about when PSA is used on DoG and if it doesn't succeed to stop the tank the ram causes weapon destroyed? Is this still that window of time where PSA is a weapon? DeffRolla hits are a part of a ram which caused DoG and changed PSA to weapon for a second - can I destroy psychic power then? This is very counter intuitive.
IMHO there should be separation of function (shoots like a weapon, count as shooting a weapon, moves like jump infantry) and attribute (is a weapon, counts as a weapon, is jump infantry).
Dear god that is a long and useless wall of text. Well, back to lurking mode probably..
Good things are good,.. so it's good
Keep our city clean.
Report your death to the Department of Expiration
2012/01/11 19:54:03
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
There's only one thing we can do now.
"Bring out the comfy chair!"
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2012/01/11 20:19:53
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
most PSAs say exactly when you can cast them which would usually exclude your opponents movement phase. I know for sure that the Eldar dex says that eldritch storm is cast in the shooting phase which would mean you can't cast it in the opponents movement phase for a DoG.
2012/01/11 20:30:32
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
And conviently most of the ones that don't either do not affect vehicles or have a profile with no non-weapon special rules. If that makes sense.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
2012/01/12 08:10:17
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
Macok wrote:Just google what APC stands for. Vehicles are perfectly capable of carrying.
Macok wrote:What is next? You will try to tell that people can't speak? Carrying argument *is* laughable.
Erm ...
fuusa wrote:transport in vehicle, ship, aircraft, hand, or mind, or on person ...
... so even vehicles without hands carry people/objects, hands carry stuff (!!!), minds carry thoughts (psychic powers) and things can be carried on your person, such as in pockets or backpacks.
Either you missed this post or misunderstood my point.
The notion that a model must be physically carrying a weapon/item in its hands, in order to be used, is laughable.
You wart-ridden imbeciles!
2012/01/12 17:58:42
Subject: Can you Death or Glory with a psychic power?
My point was that saying psychic shooting attacks aren't technically weapons is just as spurious as someone saying a model doesn't actually carry any weapons. Both are using the same line of RAW. Both are stupid.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
