Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

rigeld2 wrote:

gpfunk wrote:If a model has a psychic shooting attack, and it counts for the model having fired a ranged weapon then doesn't it fit the requirements for DoG? Or are we really hung up on the carried? Because I am not sure that anyone could really say that PSAs dont work because they aren't carried in the hands of the model. What about servitors? Some of their models have their weapons mounted on their shoulders. That would mean that they wouldn't work. Psychic attacks are carried by the psyker in one way or another. Whether that means they physically manifest in its mind or whether there is a device lodged in their brain that allows them to take in the energy around them and throw it.

My two pence.

rigeld2 wrote:I'll concede. Thanks for the discussion.

In case you missed it. Thanks.

Its a thread buddy. I was addressing the thread.

gpfunk wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I'll concede. Thanks for the discussion.

Its a thread buddy. I was addressing the thread.

And most of the thread was me arguing exactly those points you brought up. If you'd like to address someone else's arguments, please quote them and debate.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:And to go farther, if they wanted it to be allowed, they'd have stated "The attack can be either a shot from a weapon carried by the model, Psychic attack or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades." . IMHO anyway. I think it was omitted for a reason.

No, please don't go further.

May I live long enough to be as funny as you....

gpfunk wrote:What about servitors? Some of their models have their weapons mounted on their shoulders. That would mean that they wouldn't work.

That is not true at all, unless you are working off of a different definition of "Carried" than everyone else.
Shoulder mounted weapons are in fact, carried by the person that has it mounted on their shoulders.

gpfunk wrote:Psychic attacks are carried by the psyker in one way or another. Whether that means they physically manifest in its mind or whether there is a device lodged in their brain that allows them to take in the energy around them and throw it.

My two pence.

A Psychic power is not a "Shot from a weapon carried by the model."

It is a Psychic power, and does not qualify for DoG

can be either a shot from a weapon carried by the
model, or a single close combat attack using any
weapon carried, including grenades

you would have to explain to me how it comes from a weapon carried, otherwise I'm not giving it to you. Just because its a "shooting attack"

Agreed. Just because it counts as firing a ranged weapon, does not make it a 'carried weapon'.

How does a weirdboy carry his psychic powers? Really physic powers are carried?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/421322.page#3756463
Just rewinding this thread to the first page, since the discussion is back to that topic.

ceramice wrote:
you would have to explain to me how it comes from a weapon carried, otherwise I'm not giving it to you. Just because its a "shooting attack"

And that's what it boils down to. Your local meta and your TO.

If I tanked shocked someone, and they asked me if they could Warp Blast for DoG, I would surely allow them to. Why? Because it is a shooting attack. It might as well be a weapon they were "carrying". The only thing that does not match completely is that it is not physically carried. If I modelled a warp lance on my Zoanthrope, would you let me use it? There are plenty of other silly RAW judgements that don't rely on common sense, logic or critical thinking.

Again, there's no 'Scout' rule in the rulebook, but the Deployment rules refer to using your 'scout' rule. Do you not allow your opponents to use their 'Scouts', because GW didn't perfectly clarify what it meant to use it?

You use it in the shooting phase, AS a shooting weapon = PSA... death or glory is not in your shooting phase. what's the problem again?

Guitardian wrote:You use it in the shooting phase, AS a shooting weapon = PSA... death or glory is not in your shooting phase. what's the problem again?

Firing a meltagun is done in the shooting phase. DoG is not in the shooting phase. Whats the problem again?

For those who say that a PSA is not carried, couldn't you say it is held in their minds? Also, a weapon does not need to be held. Look at this definition from thefreedictionary.com:

weap·on (wpn)
n.
1. An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.
2. Zoology A part or organ, such as a claw or stinger, used by an animal in attack or defense. The brain is an organ.
3. A means used to defend against or defeat another.

BoyMac wrote:For those who say that a PSA is not carried, couldn't you say it is held in their minds? Also, a weapon does not need to be held. Look at this definition from thefreedictionary.com:

weap·on (wpn)
n.
1. An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.
2. Zoology A part or organ, such as a claw or stinger, used by an animal in attack or defense. The brain is an organ.
3. A means used to defend against or defeat another.

The DoG rules require a weapon to be carried. So your dictionary definition, while cute, means nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:

BoyMac wrote:For those who say that a PSA is not carried, couldn't you say it is held in their minds? Also, a weapon does not need to be held. Look at this definition from thefreedictionary.com:

weap·on (wpn)
n.
1. An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.
2. Zoology A part or organ, such as a claw or stinger, used by an animal in attack or defense. The brain is an organ.
3. A means used to defend against or defeat another.

The DoG rules require a weapon to be carried. So your dictionary definition, while cute, means nothing.

BoyMac wrote:For those who say that a PSA is not carried, couldn't you say it is held in their minds?

While your reading is cute, you didn't read my whole post.

BoyMac wrote:

BoyMac wrote:For those who say that a PSA is not carried, couldn't you say it is held in their minds?

While your reading is cute, you didn't read my whole post.

Actually, I did. I just didn't respond to that. You know, because you had two statements in your post?
You could say they're held in their minds, but there's no precedent for that. Unless you can find one.

<COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE text redacted - if you can't participate in a rules discussion without resorting to rude characterizations of poster's who have different view from you, then you will quickly lose the right to participate on Dakka at all --Janthkin>

rigeld2 wrote:
The DoG rules require a weapon to be carried. So your dictionary definition, while cute, means nothing.

So if I model my zoey holding a Warp Lance, we're good to go?

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The DoG rules require a weapon to be carried. So your dictionary definition, while cute, means nothing.

So if I model my zoey holding a Warp Lance, we're good to go?

How do you model a psychic power?

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The DoG rules require a weapon to be carried. So your dictionary definition, while cute, means nothing.

So if I model my zoey holding a Warp Lance, we're good to go?

How do you model a psychic power?

Using my imagination? It can be modelled in any sort of way. . .say a psychic construct that forms into a lance that is carried. I can come up with lots and lots of explanations why/how it could be 'manifested'.


In fact, here's an example of a Librarian Dread with a modelled psychic power. I think it was Blood Lance manifesting itself, but it could be anything I suppose:



Here is a Dark Elf from Fantasy with modelled magic. Is it so difficult to imagine a modelled psychic power?

rigeld2 wrote:How do you model a psychic power?

A colorful halo or aura? Posed in an interpretive dance? Have plastic card psychic energy bolts protruding from the model's forehead?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What if he is just wielding it?

So, since you seem to believe that a PSA is a weapon you believe then when rolling a weapon destroyed result against a librarian dread you can select one of his psychic powers to be destroyed?

Psychic power != weapon

The act of using a PSA means that you count as having fired a weapon (so that you can't fire another one) but that does not mean that the power is a weapon.

Scott-S6 wrote:
The act of using a PSA means that you count as having fired a weapon (so that you can't fire another one) but that does not mean that the power is a weapon.

But it counts as if you have fired it as a weapon...

BoyMac wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
The act of using a PSA means that you count as having fired a weapon (so that you can't fire another one) but that does not mean that the power is a weapon.

But it counts as if you have fired it as a weapon...

No it doesn't - your wording there is subtly but significantly different.

What the BRB says is "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon. So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target" etc.

Just because a PSA is subject to the same restrictions as a range weapon does not mean that it is a ranged weapon.

Even if it did, it would still not meet the criteria of "a weapon carried by the model".


Not to mention, if we consider PSAs to be weapons then this causes all manner of problems with the rules.
- Librarian dreads can lose powers to weapon destroyed results.
- BT characters (who are limited to carrying one two-handed weapon or two single-handed weapons) will have PSAs count against the weapons that they can carry.
etc

Scott-S6 wrote:
-BT characters (who are limited to carrying one two-handed weapon or two single-handed weapons) will have PSAs count against the weapons that they can carry.
etc

Yes those pesky BT psykers who keeps on turning up everywhere

Ogard

Just mentioned BT as they're now the only old-style armoury left. Regardless, throught 5th edition there have been a number of armies with weapon restrictions. Are we suggesting that having a PSA means you couldn't have a sword and a pistol? Because that would be the case if PSA's are weapons.

Yes those pesky BT psykers who keeps on turning up everywhere

BT/Black Templars have psykers?

People who play BT use psykers???

I thought it was pretty obvious that it was a joke concerning the BT psykers.

Which is why I commented. I figure if no one is going to say anything about my (really bad) jokes, I can at least comment on others.

Scott-S6 wrote:

BoyMac wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:
The act of using a PSA means that you count as having fired a weapon (so that you can't fire another one) but that does not mean that the power is a weapon.

But it counts as if you have fired it as a weapon...

No it doesn't - your wording there is subtly but significantly different.

What the BRB says is "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon. So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target" etc.

Just because a PSA is subject to the same restrictions as a range weapon does not mean that it is a ranged weapon.

Even if it did, it would still not meet the criteria of "a weapon carried by the model".


Not to mention, if we consider PSAs to be weapons then this causes all manner of problems with the rules.
- Librarian dreads can lose powers to weapon destroyed results.
- BT characters (who are limited to carrying one two-handed weapon or two single-handed weapons) will have PSAs count against the weapons that they can carry.
etc

The issue here is not the fact that a PSA is not a weapon carried by a model, it's that there is no logic being introduced into this reading at all. We know that a PSA is not a "weapon" and it is not "carried". My example about modelling a warp lance was to show how silly this argument has gotten.

But should this exclude PSA's from DoG attacks? If you go by strict RAW, then yes, it excludes them. However, every thing in the rulebook points to them being used as a ranged weapon, and you can used ranged weapons in DoG attacks. Because it is not specifically "carried" and it is not referred to as a "weapon", then you can't use them, is a bit silly, imo.

We also know that when the BRB is referring to the 'scout' rule, it is actually referring to 'Scouts', but we apply logic there. Why not here?