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DoG says you can use a weapon carried.
Psychic shooting attacks say you can use them instead of firing with a normal weapon.
I know of no other relevant info.
Is it possible?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it is a melee weapon that has to be used, so whichever model attacks, you use their strength. I think this is also modified by a powerfist.
I can't think of any melee-style (if that is the correct term) Physic Powers, but I don't think they could be used, as they are powers rather than weapons.

Of course, I might be talking total , you'd best get someone else's opinion here.

You're wrong - you can DoG with randed weapons as well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You're wrong - you can DoG with randed weapons as well.

Well, there you go.

Learn something new everyday

PSAs are not shooting attacks.
You can't DoG with a Warp Lance from a Zoanthrope.

rigeld2 wrote:PSAs are not shooting attacks.
You can't DoG with a Warp Lance from a Zoanthrope.

Psychic Shooting Attacks are not shooting attacks?

That's news to me. So I guess you don't have to roll to hit with them, you don't get cover from them and you can fire another weapon if you use one (so long as the power doesn't exclude using another weapon)?

Agree with Nos here. You can use a PSA to DoG just like you could a meltagun. It's more dangerous, even. You have to pass your Psychic Test, then roll to hit - more chance of getting squashed.

You actually auto hit for a DoG, but you do still need to pass the check.

PSAs are Psychic Shooting Attacks.
DoG specifies, and I quote, "The attack can be either a shot from a weapon carried by the model, or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades."

Please elaborate on how a PSA fits the requirement of being a "weapon carried by the model".

rigeld2 wrote:PSAs are Psychic Shooting Attacks.
DoG specifies, and I quote, "The attack can be either a shot from a weapon carried by the model, or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades."

Please elaborate on how a PSA fits the requirement of being a "weapon carried by the model".

That's a different argument than "PSAs are not shooting attacks."

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:PSAs are Psychic Shooting Attacks.
DoG specifies, and I quote, "The attack can be either a shot from a weapon carried by the model, or a single close combat attack using any weapon carried, including grenades."

Please elaborate on how a PSA fits the requirement of being a "weapon carried by the model".

That's a different argument than "PSAs are not shooting attacks."

Well, they aren't. They're PSAs. PSAs are required to follow the same rules as shooting attacks (with some additional restrictions), but they are not shooting attacks.

Shooting attack is the General term for all ranged attacks in 40k. PSA is a subset of shooting attacks much like ramming is a subset of tankshock.

That aside the wording of a "weapon carried by the model" would trump using a PSA unless there is wording in PSA's rules that states it counts as shooting the weapon. I know there is rules someplace what have wording to the nature of PSA replacing your weapon, but I do not have my BRB on me today.

rigeld2 wrote:
Well, they aren't. They're PSAs. PSAs are required to follow the same rules as shooting attacks (with some additional restrictions), but they are not shooting attacks.

I would argue that Psychic Shooting Attacks are a subset of shooting attacks, just like Jetbikes are a subset of Bikes and Jet Pack infantry are a subset of Jump Infantry.

However, this is getting OT. The real question is, is "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon..." (BRB, pg. 50) enough to qualify it for DoG?

puma713 wrote: The real question is, is "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon..." (BRB, pg. 50) enough to qualify it for DoG?

IMO yes - and it's extra risky since you have to pass your psychic test first. As long as we both agree that the model gets squashed both if he fails the test and if his attack fails to stop the vehicle I'm all game.

Spetulhu wrote:

puma713 wrote: The real question is, is "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon..." (BRB, pg. 50) enough to qualify it for DoG?

IMO yes - and it's extra risky since you have to pass your psychic test first. As long as we both agree that the model gets squashed both if he fails the test and if his attack fails to stop the vehicle I'm all game.

I don't think you could play it any other way. And I'm with you. If someone wanted to stand their zoanthrope up and try to Lance my Wave Serpent, then I'm for it. I am not going to deny him that because the Zoanthrope is not "carrying" his Warp Lance.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Well, they aren't. They're PSAs. PSAs are required to follow the same rules as shooting attacks (with some additional restrictions), but they are not shooting attacks.

I would argue that Psychic Shooting Attacks are a subset of shooting attacks, just like Jetbikes are a subset of Bikes and Jet Pack infantry are a subset of Jump Infantry.

However, this is getting OT. The real question is, is "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon..." (BRB, pg. 50) enough to qualify it for DoG?

Thanks for the rules quote, I think that one makes it rather clear that, yes, you can use a PSA on DoG.

Follow-up issue:

I tank shock your Farseer. You choose to DoG with him and use Eldritch Storm on it. You fail to damage the tank, but you do spin the tank to face at a right angle to the Farseer (so that the Farseer no longer will ever be under the path of the tank).

Since Tank Shock requires you to move in a straight line without turning, what happens?

A) The Farseer is saved and the tank continues on its new path.

B) The Farseer dies and the tank continues on its old patch, but just facing to the side.

C) The Farseer dies and the tank continues on its new path.

D) Something I haven't thought of.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Well, they aren't. They're PSAs. PSAs are required to follow the same rules as shooting attacks (with some additional restrictions), but they are not shooting attacks.

I would argue that Psychic Shooting Attacks are a subset of shooting attacks, just like Jetbikes are a subset of Bikes and Jet Pack infantry are a subset of Jump Infantry.

However, this is getting OT. The real question is, is "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon..." (BRB, pg. 50) enough to qualify it for DoG?

Is that "shot from a weapon that is carried by the model"?

Grakmar wrote:8snip*

If I were a TO, I would say that the Farseer is killed and the tank continues on its original path, then spins at the end of the tank shock.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is that "shot from a weapon that is carried by the model"?

puma713 wrote: I am not going to deny him that because the Zoanthrope is not "carrying" his Warp Lance.

I would imagine I would get some disgruntled looks and a few whispered "TFGs", if I were to suggest that because the Zoanthrope isn't actually "carrying" its Warp Lance, it cannot use it, even though shooting it counts as a firing a ranged weapon (a ranged weapon that it must be carrying, since all "ranged weapons" are carried in one form or another).

I'd allow it, only because you first have to pass your test. Then you have to roll off against my hood (or worse a SW dude with the staff that blocks you on a 4+). Then you have to roll a punch. Then you have to roll high enough to immobilize the vehicle.
Thats 4 sets of rolls you have to face, failing any of them causes your Zoe to die.
Those are good odds in my favor.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Is that "shot from a weapon that is carried by the model"?

puma713 wrote: I am not going to deny him that because the Zoanthrope is not "carrying" his Warp Lance.

I would imagine I would get some disgruntled looks and a few whispered "TFGs", if I were to suggest that because the Zoanthrope isn't actually "carrying" its Warp Lance, it cannot use it, even though shooting it counts as a firing a ranged weapon (a ranged weapon that it must be carrying, since all "ranged weapons" are carried in one form or another).

Speaking as a Nid player - that's exactly how I would play it, if I fielded Zoeys (ie no Warp Lance on a DoG). There's no TFG about it - the rule says that you have to be carrying the weapon.

Grakmar wrote:Follow-up issue:

I tank shock your Farseer. You choose to DoG with him and use Eldritch Storm on it. You fail to damage the tank, but you do spin the tank to face at a right angle to the Farseer (so that the Farseer no longer will ever be under the path of the tank).

Since Tank Shock requires you to move in a straight line without turning, what happens?

A) The Farseer is saved and the tank continues on its new path.

B) The Farseer dies and the tank continues on its old patch, but just facing to the side.

C) The Farseer dies and the tank continues on its new path.

D) Something I haven't thought of.

D)

Eldritch Storm is a "psychic power used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon" whereas Tank Shocks are attempted in the movement phase (unless you consider Star Engine movement as being allowed to Tank Shock, but that's the only exception I can think of) or whenever the Tank is able to move normally, and not many tanks can move normally in the Shooting Phase. The same goes for the Destructor Warlock power. Doombolt, Wind of Chaos, Nurgle's Rot, and Bolt of Change from C: CSM are also used in the Shooting phase, as is everything pre-5th Edition I think, as C: SM has no such restriction on its PSAs, although Ork powers are also used in the Shooting Phase (regardless of the power used, however).

rigeld2 wrote:
Speaking as a Nid player - that's exactly how I would play it, if I fielded Zoeys (ie no Warp Lance on a DoG). There's no TFG about it - the rule says that you have to be carrying the weapon.

Strict RAW is a dangerous road to follow.

Space marine characters (like Ko'Sarro Khan) can be mounted on a bike and then embark in a Land Raider, because taking a bike in the SM Codex doesn't change your unit type. It simply says that the model follows the rules for bikes and the rules for bikes don't include anything about your unit type. The ability to embark is dependant upon your unit type, nothing more.

So, you'd allow me to mount Ko'Sarro Khan and his buddies on bikes and put them in a LR?

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Speaking as a Nid player - that's exactly how I would play it, if I fielded Zoeys (ie no Warp Lance on a DoG). There's no TFG about it - the rule says that you have to be carrying the weapon.

Strict RAW is a dangerous road to follow.

Space marine characters (like Ko'Sarro Khan) can be mounted on a bike and then embark in a Land Raider, because taking a bike in the SM Codex doesn't change your unit type. It simply says that the model follows the rules for bikes and the rules for bikes don't include anything about your unit type. The ability to embark is dependant upon your unit type, nothing more.

So, you'd allow me to mount Ko'Sarro Khan and his buddies on bikes and put them in a LR?

Page 100 SM codex.

"Models equipped with Space Marine bikes follow all the rules for bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

Page 66 BRB.

"Only infantry models may embark in transports (it is worth noting that this does not include jump infantry), unless a Codex book states otherwise."

Since following the rules for bikes means you're following a unit type that is not infantry, you don't embark.

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 100 SM codex.

"Models equipped with Space Marine bikes follow all the rules for bikes as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

Page 66 BRB.

"Only infantry models may embark in transports (it is worth noting that this does not include jump infantry), unless a Codex book states otherwise."

Since following the rules for bikes means you're following a unit type that is not infantry, you don't embark.

Just because I am following the rules for a unit does not change the unit type. Kor'sorra Khan is an Infantry model, even with his bike. Taking his bike does not change the fact that he is an infantry model - he is an infantry model that follows the rules for bikes. I am following the movement rules for Jump Infantry with a Chaos Lord with wings, but it does not change my unit type from Monstrous Creature to Jump Infantry. In fact, when unit types are changed, codices are very explicit to let you know (Grey Knight Interceptors).

This is not the point though. I can dig up the old RAW Silliness thread if you like, but the point still stands - strict RAW without the use of logic to parse it is dangerous and can lead to issues. Put in a bit of complex thinking (because a unit can use something that counts as a ranged weapon, they would be able to use it just like someone that is holding their ranged weapon) and all the RAW silliness goes away.

Here you go, for fun:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/278461.page

This is one of my favs: "In various psychic powers, including Warptime, THE PSYKER ITSELF must roll the dice. (That's the model, not the player)"

Saying you cannot use the psychic power because it is normally a shooting phase power denies you using any shooting weapon. So that argument is wrong.

Is a psychic power a weapon or wargear? I don't think so. If the rule states "a weapon" wouldn't it stand to reason that a psychic power is not w weapon?

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Well, they aren't. They're PSAs. PSAs are required to follow the same rules as shooting attacks (with some additional restrictions), but they are not shooting attacks.

I would argue that Psychic Shooting Attacks are a subset of shooting attacks, just like Jetbikes are a subset of Bikes and Jet Pack infantry are a subset of Jump Infantry.

However, this is getting OT. The real question is, is "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon..." (BRB, pg. 50) enough to qualify it for DoG?

Is that "shot from a weapon that is carried by the model"?

Depends on how you define 'carried'. It DOES count as a weapon, and it is definitely attached to the model, so I would say that yes, it does count as a 'shot from a weapon that is carried by the model'.

If someone had, for some odd reason, converted a Space Marine with a meltagun so that the model appeared to be juggling the weapon, and mounted it on a piece of wire so that no part of the weapon was touching any part of the Space Marine, would he be allowed to fire it in a DoG attempt despite the fact that the model was not, technically, 'carrying' the weapon?

If yes, then you can use a PSA in a DoG attempt; it counts as firing a weapon per the PSA rules, and the model has the ability to use it in exactly the same way as a Space Marine with a meltagun has the ability to use a meltagun.

If no, then we'll have to agree to disagree, because GW has never defined 'carrying' as far as I know.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Is a psychic power a weapon or wargear? I don't think so. If the rule states "a weapon" wouldn't it stand to reason that a psychic power is not w weapon?

puma713 wrote: "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon..." (BRB, pg. 50)

puma713 wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Is a psychic power a weapon or wargear? I don't think so. If the rule states "a weapon" wouldn't it stand to reason that a psychic power is not w weapon?

puma713 wrote: "Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon..." (BRB, pg. 50)

"counts as firing a ranged weapon" does not look the same as "weapon carried" as the rulebook says...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Saying you cannot use the psychic power because it is normally a shooting phase power denies you using any shooting weapon. So that argument is wrong.

Of course it is. That's not the argument I'm using.

And yes, pure RAW can and does cause silliness. I don't see that as an issue in this scenario.
There are some fairly significant differences between a PSA and a normal shooting attack - the largest of which is the fact that PSAs need the psychic test.
I absolutely understand the other side of the argument. I disagree with it, and without a FAQ (which will in all likelihood not happen if 6th really is due out soon) we'd have to 4+ or TO rule it.