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Wait, are you seriously claiming that killing someone for religious, political, or cultural reasons is justified even when they haven't done anything to you?

Amaya wrote:Wait, are you seriously claiming that killing someone for religious, political, or cultural reasons is justified even when they haven't done anything to you?

Thats the whole definition of the US military. Make the other guy do what you want him to do.

Mattyrm wrote:Smarter people than us make the big decisions

I'm not entirely sure about that... at the very least, I don't really think they're always making decisions based off of actual and real facts.

To say that's evil would be something of an understatement.

Yes, the US has bullied nations, but to sit here and advocate it is reprehensible.

Also matty, I think we're talking about different things. I only mentioned special forces once (in that all SF potentials should be heavily screened for psychological concerns), and otherwise I've been talking about infantry.

Amaya wrote:To say that's evil would be something of an understatement.

Yes, the US has bullied nations, but to sit here and advocate it is reprehensible.

Wait you were going to join the Corps and didn't know this?

Great Presidential conversations:
McKinley: Do what I say.
Queen of Spain: No.
McKinley: Its your ass.

Wilson. Do what I say
Kaiser. No
Wilson. Its your ass.

Truman: Do what I say.
Kim Il Sung.No.
Truman. Its your ass.

Kennedy: Do what I say.
Ho Chi Min. No.
Kennedy. Its your ass.

Etc. etc. etc. Bush I, Clinton, Obama its all about the get in line or you get the slap.

Amaya wrote:To say that's evil would be something of an understatement.

Yes, the US has bullied nations, but to sit here and advocate it is reprehensible.

You seriously claim to have taken the oath to enter service but have the above opinion?

Wow. Did you plan on only participating in actions you approved of?


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Melissia wrote:Also matty, I think we're talking about different things. I only mentioned special forces once (in that all SF potentials should be heavily screened for psychological concerns), and otherwise I've been talking about infantry.

The infantry issue has been addressed. You just don't like what was presented.

Additionally it seems pretty hypocritical on your part to advocate for female infantrymen but then want to deny them the opportunity to assess into elite units. If you DON'T want to deny them that opportunity, Matty's SOF examples are still within in the realm of discussion.

My ideology is one of the reasons I didn't even try to stay in or get back in.

I'm not going to support an evil empire.

Amaya wrote:My ideology is one of the reasons I didn't even try to stay in or get back in.

I'm not going to support an evil empire.

So I assume you refuse to pay Federal taxes (to include buy gasoline).

Or is internet talk as far as you go?

CptJake wrote:The infantry issue has been addressed.

Certainly it is what I was addressing. Nor did I say we should deny women access to special forces units-- I didn't talk about them at all except for saying all candidates need psychological screening.

CptJake wrote:

Amaya wrote:My ideology is one of the reasons I didn't even try to stay in or get back in.

I'm not going to support an evil empire.

So I assume you refuse to pay Federal taxes (to include buy gasoline).

Or is internet talk as far as you go?

In case you haven't noticed supposedly free citizens are forced to support unprovoked wars of aggression (Iraq) or go to prison.

Just because the government does it, doesn't mean it's right and just because you're an imperialist doesn't justify being an ass.

Melissia wrote:

CptJake wrote:The infantry issue has been addressed.

Certainly it is what I was addressing. Nor did I say we should deny women access to special forces units-- I didn't talk about them at all except for saying all candidates need psychological screening.

So then all Matt's points are valid. Why complain he is making them?

He made his points in response to my statements about infantry, therefor I discussed them with him. Then it seemed he drifted to special forces units for... some reason.

Melissia wrote:He made his points in response to my statements about infantry, therefor I discussed them with him. Then it seemed he drifted to special forces units for... some reason.

It's called moving the goalposts.

Amaya wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Unless they mean it.

Anyone that actually enjoys killing, not just claims to enjoy it, but actually truly does, is fethed in the head.

'Fethed in the head' might go a long way in describing the kinds of things Special Forces (of any country) get up to.

Normal people don't do this kind of crazy gak, but I don't think matty has ever said he was normal. In fact I think he has dropped the disclaimer that he isn't normal a couple of times in the past.


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Chongara wrote:

Melissia wrote:He made his points in response to my statements about infantry, therefor I discussed them with him. Then it seemed he drifted to special forces units for... some reason.

It's called moving the goalposts.

Oh, I see. We went from US to UK football, right?

Well, it's a given you have to be a little nutters to volunteer to serve in the Special Forces (or even regular infantry for that matter).

I'm sure there are some who do some of the courses, not necessarily SF schools, just for the challenge. Just me, but I'd love to do something like Ranger school just to see if I could complete it, but as far as serving in the Rangers? Hell no.

I have no statistics, no moral opinion nor do I have a legitimate opinion.

But women who can kick ass are just down right sexy. Being in uniform makes it more orgasmic.

yup, this was a total "guy" opinion on the matter.




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CptJake wrote:

Spoiler:

That


is awesome.

Just as an aside about the idea that longer boot camp would make women more physically fit overall - you do know that these PT standards are for the tests all soldiers have to take on a regular basis, not just to get out of boot right?

And as a purely anecdotal story to go with that, in my unit we had maybe one female who seriously tried hard, like an hour a day after work at the gym on the treadmills, ate right, and generally was one of the most fit females in the battalion. She was also about 2 inches taller than me. I ate like gak, drank 4-5 nights a week, never did a lick of working out outside of designated PT, and would routinely beat her best 2 mile times by two odd minutes or more. And on long distance runs there was an even greater disparity. This was a chick who had been healthy and athletic her whole life - I have never been a healthy person, or done much of anything athletically.

Some one posted marathon times. Here is a race I have done: http://www.bataanmarch.com/

Marathon length, not all on roads, a HUGE increase in elevation on the course, some of the course in deep sand, and certain categories of entrants wear military gear.

Here is info on the course. http://www.bataanmarch.com/r09/racemap.htm Look at the elevation profile.

http://runhigh.com/2012RESULTS/R032512AD2.html

The heavy category calls for uniforms and 35 pound ruck (note that my ruck went from 75-120 pounds as a recon platoon leader, depending on mission):

Note the first coed team took over 7 hours.

First all male team took less than 5.5 hours.

Each team trains as they see fit, it is all up to the team.


Here are the light team scores: http://runhigh.com/2012RESULTS/R032512AD3.html In this category you have all female teams. You'll note the first female team has an over 7 hour time.

A lot bigger time difference than record marathons, but it is a much harder race. 26.2 miles of pain. I think this is a better example than a regular marathon.





That is the team I led back in 2000. Actually a 5 man team, but the 5th guy is behind the guy on the right. I am second from the right.

Melissia wrote:He made his points in response to my statements about infantry, therefor I discussed them with him. Then it seemed he drifted to special forces units for... some reason.

Yeah it was cos I said in my first post that I think women should be allowed into everything in the military other than the op tier infantry/special forces units because I believed it could jeopardise operational effectiveness.

Anyway, the threads moved on a bit since I logged off..


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Chongara wrote:

Melissia wrote:He made his points in response to my statements about infantry, therefor I discussed them with him. Then it seemed he drifted to special forces units for... some reason.

It's called moving the goalposts.

No it isnt. They have stayed firmly in place, and what reason do I have to move them? Its a discussion with no solid answer, so there cant possibly be a wrong one, so why the feth would I move them?

Melissia is entitled to her opinion, and I don't differ from it that greatly, and ive been uniform on my opinion throughout the thread (suitable for all but the spear tip units) so did you even read it all or are you just trying to attack your betters for no good reason?


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Amaya wrote:Wait, are you seriously claiming that killing someone for religious, political, or cultural reasons is justified even when they haven't done anything to you?

Yeah this was why I addressed you initially Amaya, because as I said, as a mature veteran I can understand where you are coming from, but I think you are opening a can of worms and drawing a huge line in the sand in what is an extremely complicated issue.

Is ignorance evil? Evil is a very stong word. It has no grey area does it?

If a young man joins the army because he feels wounded by the little that he knows about AQ, and he thinks that their Religion is an integral part of their ideological reasoning for killing American civilians (and you could probably make an at least half decent argument that it is, I mean, do you think any of the suicide bombers on 9/11 were not devout?) then is he an EVIL person for wanting to go and kill some of said Muslims that he percieves rightly or wrongly to be his enemies?

I was foolish and immature when I tried out for the RM at 19. The number one reason (ive told this story before Im sure) was becasue of the Luxor Tourist Massacre. I read about it after it happened and it turned my stomach, I was only a kid at the time, but I read the testimony from the sole survivor (older woman who hid under bodies) about all the raping and the torture, and I imagined seeing my wife get raped and my kid get bludgeoned to death in front of me, and I thought how awful it would feel to have to watch it all and be so utterly powerless, the despair you would feel.

And a strange feeling came over me, I wanted to kill Muslims. I really really did. That rage and fury is what got me through my training, I held onto that anger and I was deseprate for a war.

And when 9/11 happaned, I had been in for two and a half years, and I was saddened, but not suprised, and most of all I was excited, because I knew I would get the chance to blast the gak out of the people I (somewhat immaturely/ignorantly decided) were responsible.

Fast forward 12 years, I feel I was somewhat ignorant, but who isnt when they are young? And I was full of fire, and the arrogance of youth, and all sorts of other things. I most certainly joined for plenty of other reasons, travel, money, a good CV, but most definitely the number one reason was a very base reason (desire to kill other human beings) so tell me, seeing as your the one who drew a line in the sand here.

Am I an evil person?

Bromsy wrote:Just as an aside about the idea that longer boot camp would make women more physically fit overall - you do know that these PT standards are for the tests all soldiers have to take on a regular basis, not just to get out of boot right?

Thus the pre-boot camp suggestion that Israel's researchers gave. The longer boot camp doesn't necessarily have to be at the end of boot camp you know.

The idea was that because of cultural reasons, women are less physically fit than we should be, thus a few months of extra boot camp to get female aspirants physically fit before the normal boot camp begins would decrease the number of injuries in boot camp and increase the number of qualified female applicants.

mattyrm wrote:And a strange feeling came over me, I wanted to kill Muslims. I really really did. That rage and fury is what got me through my training, I held onto that anger and I was deseprate for a war.
[...]
Am I an evil person?

Those Muslims who performed those terrorist acts felt the same feeling you did, except instead they wanted to kill some Americans, or some British, or some French, and so on and so forth. You both acted upon your desire to kill in a way taht would allow you to be more likely to kill more of the hated group, albeit in obviously somewhat different ways. Are those terrorists evil?

It's more complex than that, of course. But hate and ignorance are NOT good things, and should be avoided and counteracted wherever possible.

Melissia wrote: You both acted upon your desire to kill in a way taht would allow you to be more likely to kill more of the hated group, albeit in obviously somewhat different ways. Are those terrorists evil?

It's more complex than that, of course. But hate and ignorance are NOT good things, and should be avoided and counteracted wherever possible.

Well I can answer that, of course they aren't are they? Its why I take umbrage with Amayas use of the word Evil to describe a large portion of the US military.

Thing is, now I'm older and wiser I can sit and philosophise, you have that luxury as a civilian. Soldiers cant see things in shades of grey. If a guy is coming towards you and he is wired up, you cant think "Did he see hiw father killed by a US drone? Did he have a bad childhood? Was he lied to by a trusted teacher?" you just slot him and do your job. But that's the exact reason I take issue with the word "Evil" getting tossed around willy nilly.

Of course when you come right down to it, a suicide bomber isn't evil is he? I think someone who revels in slaughter and torture possibly is (but more than likely is mentally unhinged as opposed to evil)but If I was taken to a Madrassa at the age of 5, and spoon fed nonsense for 12 hours a day, to the point where I WANT to blow myself up, then of course its an easy answer. Those fethers probably believe that Americans eat babies, so they cant be evil by definition. You might as well ask if a Lion is evil for eating a Wildebeest.

But is an allied soldier evil for wanting to beat his enemy? The guy he perceives to be the bad guy? Of course not.

We wouldn't have won many wars if we trained our soldiers to philosophise first, shoot later.

There's a difference between wanting to beat the enemy, and hating an entire ethnic group.

This is where hatred of muslims takes you:

These people are no better than the terrorists.

In fact, quite frankly they ARE terrorists, nothing more than terrorist scumbags.

Melissia wrote:There's a difference between wanting to beat the enemy, and hating an entire ethnic group.

This is where hatred of muslims takes you:

These people are no better than the terrorists.

In fact, quite frankly they ARE terrorists, nothing more than terrorist scumbags.

Yeah of course those people are proper scum, I mean, by Muslims I did think "The ones over there that do mad gak" more than "The bloke who drives a taxi near my house"

As I said, I disagree entirely with the idea of hating an entire ethnic group, but I do have some prejudice to this day. The point I was trying to make was simply that people are complicated, and I don't think harbouring a desire to kill a certain group means that you are necessarily evil or have severe mental problems. Anders Brevik is, but a kid in the SEALs isnt, and they are both happy to shoot people.

In fact, if you want your elite military formations to perform well, a desire to kill is pretty healthy, as it keeps you from getting filled full of holes at the earliest opportunity.

I certainly think it's quite an evil thing to think, because it leads to situations like the crime I linked to the above.

The same hatred you described is what was in the minds of the terrorists who drove planes in to the world trade center. The same hatred you described leads Muslim militants in Africa to round up groups of non-Muslim women and gang-rape them. The same hatred you described leads to incidents like the My Lai massacre. And, pardon me for breaking that old internet law, but the same hatred you described is the reason why Nazis committed genocide.

If you blatantly hate and desire to kill any ethnic, religious, or political group for the actions of an extreme minority of their populace than you are either ignorant, immature, or evil.
There are probably dozens of cultural, political, and religious ideologies that I loathe, but there is not one that I think deserves to have every one of its members brutally killed because of who they are or what they believe.

The thing that amazes and disgusts me more than anything is how people somehow consider themselves superior to those of other cultures and religions. The reality is we are not that different. If you're born in Europe or the Americas you're probably going to be raised in a Christian or nonpracticing home. If you're born in Saudi Arabia, you're probably going to be raised in an Islamic home. How does that make one better than the other? It's completely irrelevant and yet you are advocating the murder of people for where they were born. If you can't see that there is something wrong with that, then I am sorry for you.

Melissia wrote:There's a difference between wanting to beat the enemy, and hating an entire ethnic group.

This is where hatred of muslims takes you:

These people are no better than the terrorists.

In fact, quite frankly they ARE terrorists, nothing more than terrorist scumbags.

Actually it turns out it was likely her husband as an honor killing...

Amaya wrote:If you blatantly hate and desire to kill any ethnic, religious, or political group for the actions of an extreme minority of their populace than you are either ignorant, immature, or evil.

Oh yeah, well, we agree then. I'm cool with it now Its a bit less ambiguous.





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Melissia wrote: Nazis committed genocide.

Oh gak you mentioned the Nazis, its all gonna go Pete Tong now.


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Frazzled wrote:

Melissia wrote:There's a difference between wanting to beat the enemy, and hating an entire ethnic group.

This is where hatred of muslims takes you:

These people are no better than the terrorists.

In fact, quite frankly they ARE terrorists, nothing more than terrorist scumbags.

Actually it turns out it was likely her husband as an honor killing...

Uhoh...

mattyrm wrote:

Amaya wrote:If you blatantly hate and desire to kill any ethnic, religious, or political group for the actions of an extreme minority of their populace than you are either ignorant, immature, or evil.

Oh yeah, well, we agree then. I'm cool with it now Its a bit less ambiguous.

So if Argentina seizes the Falklands you have a problem killing them?
-minority political group.

Frazzled wrote:Actually it turns out it was likely her husband as an honor killing...

I tried to find a source for that statement, but none seems to exist.