Switch Theme:

Article: Is the US military man enough for women on the frontline?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Frazzled wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Amaya wrote:If you blatantly hate and desire to kill any ethnic, religious, or political group for the actions of an extreme minority of their populace than you are either ignorant, immature, or evil.


Oh yeah, well, we agree then. I'm cool with it now Its a bit less ambiguous.




So if Argentina seizes the Falklands you have a problem killing them?
-minority political group.


No of course not, because Its a much less ambiguous statement isn't it? I mean, I don't blatantly hate and desire to kill Argies, why would I?

But if they invade the Falklands I will happily set my GPMG up on the beach and hose their teenage conscripts down as they get off the landers.

No hate, just a desire to kill them until they bugger off home and I go for tea and stickies with the Queen. Huzzah!

So I only just tick one box right?

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in gb
Hulking Hunter-class Warmech




North West UK

Frazzled wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Amaya wrote:If you blatantly hate and desire to kill any ethnic, religious, or political group for the actions of an extreme minority of their populace than you are either ignorant, immature, or evil.


Oh yeah, well, we agree then. I'm cool with it now Its a bit less ambiguous.




So if Argentina seizes the Falklands you have a problem killing them?
-minority political group.


If it came down to it, and they actually did, it would no longer be a minority group, as I'm fairly sure you would need more than just a minority political party to invade

EDIT: Ninja'd by Matty, who said the same thing far more eloquently than I did

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/02 14:09:59


Not One Step Back Comrade! - Tibbsy's Stalingrad themed Soviet Strelkovy

Tibbsy's WW1 Trench Raid Diorama Blog
 Ouze wrote:

Well, you don't stuff facts into the Right Wing Outrage Machine©. My friend, you load it with derp and sensationalism, and then crank that wheel.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spitsbergen

Melissia wrote:

The idea was that because of cultural reasons, women are less physically fit than we should be, thus a few months of extra boot camp to get female aspirants physically fit before the normal boot camp begins would decrease the number of injuries in boot camp and increase the number of qualified female applicants.



Why shouldn't the women just train on their own before boot camp? No one is stopping them from training beforehand so that they do as well at boot camp as possible.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

rubiksnoob wrote:
Melissia wrote:

The idea was that because of cultural reasons, women are less physically fit than we should be, thus a few months of extra boot camp to get female aspirants physically fit before the normal boot camp begins would decrease the number of injuries in boot camp and increase the number of qualified female applicants.



Why shouldn't the women just train on their own before boot camp? No one is stopping them from training beforehand so that they do as well at boot camp as possible.


That would require idividual initiative and merit. We can't have that.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

rubiksnoob wrote:
Melissia wrote:

The idea was that because of cultural reasons, women are less physically fit than we should be, thus a few months of extra boot camp to get female aspirants physically fit before the normal boot camp begins would decrease the number of injuries in boot camp and increase the number of qualified female applicants.



Why shouldn't the women just train on their own before boot camp? No one is stopping them from training beforehand so that they do as well at boot camp as possible.


Thats a good point, its what everyone else does isn't it?

I remember before I joined up, the big ass corporal in the careers office gave me a sheet of paper with exercises and run distances and times and such on and said "If you cant do all of that before you get there, you have no fething chance mate"

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

mattyrm wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Amaya wrote:If you blatantly hate and desire to kill any ethnic, religious, or political group for the actions of an extreme minority of their populace than you are either ignorant, immature, or evil.


Oh yeah, well, we agree then. I'm cool with it now Its a bit less ambiguous.




So if Argentina seizes the Falklands you have a problem killing them?
-minority political group.


No of course not, because Its a much less ambiguous statement isn't it? I mean, I don't blatantly hate and desire to kill Argies, why would I?

But if they invade the Falklands I will happily set my GPMG up on the beach and hose their teenage conscripts down as they get off the landers.

No hate, just a desire to kill them until they bugger off home and I go for tea and stickies with the Queen. Huzzah!

So I only just tick one box right?


This is probably a bad question, and I already regret asking it, but, whats a stickie?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Haha!

Not what you think it is!

Tea and stickies - Tea and cakes, or other sweet baked confectionery, such as jam and scones or tea cakes.

I really don't want to know what you thought I wanted to do to the Queen.

Gawd Bless 'er

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

mattyrm wrote:Haha!

Not what you think it is!

Tea and stickies - Tea and cakes, or other sweet baked confectionery, such as jam and scones or tea cakes.

I really don't want to know what you thought I wanted to do to the Queen.

Gawd Bless 'er


Why did I ask? Now I'm hungry and its only midmorning!

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

rubiksnoob wrote:Why shouldn't the women just train on their own before boot camp? No one is stopping them from training beforehand so that they do as well at boot camp as possible.
You're right, let's get rid of boot camp entirely and just expect all potential soldiers to train on their own before joining the military.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/02 14:28:40


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

mattyrm wrote:
rubiksnoob wrote:
Melissia wrote:

The idea was that because of cultural reasons, women are less physically fit than we should be, thus a few months of extra boot camp to get female aspirants physically fit before the normal boot camp begins would decrease the number of injuries in boot camp and increase the number of qualified female applicants.



Why shouldn't the women just train on their own before boot camp? No one is stopping them from training beforehand so that they do as well at boot camp as possible.


Thats a good point, its what everyone else does isn't it?

I remember before I joined up, the big ass corporal in the careers office gave me a sheet of paper with exercises and run distances and times and such on and said "If you cant do all of that before you get there, you have no fething chance mate"


Our recruiters pass the same type of info to the kids, and even offer PT sessions to help them before they ship off, but it is up to the individual to get in shape.

Once in, all schools have requirements, and the 'hard' ones have train-ups an individual can do before they arrive (and standards that they MUST meet upon arrival). For example, I know if I want to attend Air Assault School I MUST be able to pass the obstacle course and APFT on Zero Day. I also know there are several ruck marches for time during the course. Male or female, it is up to the trooper to get in shape for the school.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:
rubiksnoob wrote:Why shouldn't the women just train on their own before boot camp? No one is stopping them from training beforehand so that they do as well at boot camp as possible.
You're right, let's get rid of boot camp entirely and just expect all potential soldiers to train on their own before joining the military.


That is frankly asinine. The point we are making is there is a level of fitness expected from the recruit the day they get there. For example, you MUST meet height weight standards BEFORE you get to basic. You MUST be at a minimal level of fitness if you hope to make it through. You do a lot more in basic than conditioning.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/02 14:34:02


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spitsbergen

Melissia wrote:
rubiksnoob wrote:Why shouldn't the women just train on their own before boot camp? No one is stopping them from training beforehand so that they do as well at boot camp as possible.
You're right, let's get rid of boot camp entirely and just expect all soldiers to train on their own before joining the military.



Urhm, no, let's not.

I'm sure most, if not all aspiring soldiers do some sort of physical training before going to boot camp, and if female soldiers know that they are in less than adequate shape to begin with, for cultural reasons or otherwise, the onus is on them to improve their fitness beforehand so that they can graduate from the same bootcamp with the same level of fitness as all their other fellow recruits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/02 14:35:51


 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

The onus should be on society to change its nonsensical culture (because frankly it's unhealthy to begin with), but you don't see that happening any time soon either. We can't even stop people from getting fatter.
You MUST be at a minimal level of fitness if you hope to make it through.
I know. And this proposed program assists women, who are disadvantaged through the more asinine aspects of our culture to be less physically fit, in doing this.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/05/02 14:37:44


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

Melissia wrote:The onus should be on society to change its nonsensical culture (because frankly it's unhealthy to begin with), but you don't see that happening any time soon either.
You MUST be at a minimal level of fitness if you hope to make it through.
I know. And this proposed program assists women, who are disadvantaged through the more asinine aspects of our culture to be less physically fit, in doing this.


So, is your position that once given acces to the expected standards for entry into basic training, females are incapable of taking initiative to meet those standards on their own, though males are?

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I don't think Melissia understands what boot camp is for.

"Boot camp is the machine where we took kids and made them learn to immediately follow orders, and some other useless crap. Yelling was great but it didn't really set right until we threw one of them down stairs in a locker, then everyone listened. "
-Frazzled Sr.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/02 14:41:34


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I would say most candidates-- regardless of gender-- aren't capable of taking initiative (or more accurately, they are, but they frequently don't do it). But regardless, the point is that the relatively small expenditure is well worth having access to a wider pool of recruitment, and is certainly better than setting lower standards for women.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/05/02 14:42:54


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spitsbergen

Melissia wrote:The onus should be on society to change its nonsensical culture (because frankly it's unhealthy to begin with), but you don't see that happening any time soon either. We can't even stop people from getting fatter.
You MUST be at a minimal level of fitness if you hope to make it through.
I know. And this proposed program assists women, who are disadvantaged through the more asinine aspects of our culture to be less physically fit, in doing this.



Well, I would think that kinds of women who want to fight on the front lines are already defying the pressures of evil male society, and as such would not be troubled by rejecting cultural norms and working out a bit more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:I would say most candidates-- regardless of gender-- aren't capable of taking initiative (or more accurately, they are, but they don't do it).



Then where on earth have we been getting new soldiers from for the past few decades???? Clearly SOME of them are taking the initiative, seeing as they wouldn't make it through boot camp if they didn't.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/02 14:44:16


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Melissia wrote:I would say most candidates-- regardless of gender-- aren't capable of taking initiative (or more accurately, they are, but they frequently don't do it). But regardless, the point is that the relatively small expenditure is well worth having access to a wider pool of recruitment, and is certainly better than setting lower standards for women.


Don't need a wider pool actually. We're going to be downsizing in the near term.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Having a wider pool doesn't mean you accept more people, especially considering I was suggesting not having lower standards.

And downsizing is probably a bad idea, why not cut crappy and almost wholly wasteful things like the F-35 program instead? Probably political reasons I suppose.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

CptJake wrote:
Once in, all schools have requirements, and the 'hard' ones have train-ups an individual can do before they arrive (and standards that they MUST meet upon arrival). For example, I know if I want to attend Air Assault School I MUST be able to pass the obstacle course and APFT on Zero Day.


Cool story, the RM have their own train station, its between Exeter and Exmouth and its called "Lympstone Commando" back in the day, they used to meet you at the station and then when you got off the platform go "grab your bags and follow me!" and run the two miles to the billet, if you didnt keep up they would wait for you at the galley and go "walk back to the station and feth off home, you can come back in 6 months if your ready"

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Spitsbergen

Melissia wrote:
You MUST be at a minimal level of fitness if you hope to make it through.
I know. And this proposed program assists women, who are disadvantaged through the more asinine aspects of our culture to be less physically fit, in doing this.



And so if these women understand what is expected of them beforehand, what is stopping them from making sure they meet this minimum level of fitness, just as their male counterparts do? If they are truly interested in joining the military, they shouldn't be using "culture" as an excuse for why they aren't fit. I can understand why they might not be fit when they go to the recruiting office to sign up, but there is no excuse for them not being fit after being told they need to meet x,y,z benchmarks before shipping off to boot camp.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

rubiksnoob wrote:
Then where on earth have we been getting new soldiers from for the past few decades???? Clearly SOME of them are taking the initiative, seeing as they wouldn't make it through boot camp if they didn't.


Yeah I joined up with 68 lads, I think only 17 of us made the cut, but not a single one was out of shape on day 1 week 1. I think the terror of what awaits you spurs the vast majority of people to great efforts before they arrive.

Thats commando training though, I dare say Mel is correct if you take something like the Catering Corps or the AGC (Clerks)

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Or even basic infantry given the average recruit for the basic infantry (a lot of high school dropouts or just-barely-passed grads, for example). I rather expect those who are seriously wanting to get in to special forces to be gung-ho about it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/02 14:55:05


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Melissia wrote:Having a wider pool doesn't mean you accept more people, especially considering I was suggesting not having lower standards.

And downsizing is probably a bad idea, why not cut crappy and almost wholly wasteful things like the F-35 program instead? Probably political reasons I suppose.

both



-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

Melissia wrote:Having a wider pool doesn't mean you accept more people, especially considering I was suggesting not having lower standards.



Standards are ALREADY LOWER for females at basic training. If you have a unisex standard at basic training you will more than decimate female participation in the armed forces.

As for the 'small' cost to have a special program for females, why should the tax payer suffer ANY additional burden for any one to get into the military? Serving is not a right nor a responsibility. If an individual want to join up, they are currently given the standards they have to meet. They can currently choose to participate in recruiter hosted training sessions or not. They can choose to meet the standards or not.

As for downsizing, again, if the country does not need as many soldiers on active duty, why should the tax payers suffer the extra burden? That doesn't mean non-manpower issues and systems should not also be lloked at for cuts/savings.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





UK

Melissia wrote:Or even basic infantry given the average recruit for the basic infantry (a lot of high school dropouts or just-barely-passed grads, for example). I rather expect those who are seriously wanting to get in to special forces to be gung-ho about it.


Possibly, we were always somewhat scornful of regular army infantry. I doubt its the majority though surely? Even regular infantry the lads must know that you are going to have to... I dunno.. run about a bit. You dont want to look a total tit on your first day do you?!

We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

Melissia wrote:Or even basic infantry given the average recruit for the basic infantry (a lot of high school dropouts or just-barely-passed grads, for example). I rather expect those who are seriously wanting to get in to special forces to be gung-ho about it.


Now you are showing ignorance. Look up numbers of non-highschool grads allowed into the military.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

CptJake wrote:Standards are ALREADY LOWER for females at basic training.

I know they are. Read what I said again.

My argument, in case you haven't been reading, was that instead of having lower standards for women to make up for the cultural disadvantage that women have, we should have a longer boot camp (a pre-bootcamp if you prefer) for women.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/05/02 15:00:07


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Renegade Inquisitor de Marche






Elephant Graveyard

mattyrm wrote:
Melissia wrote:Or even basic infantry given the average recruit for the basic infantry (a lot of high school dropouts or just-barely-passed grads, for example). I rather expect those who are seriously wanting to get in to special forces to be gung-ho about it.


Possibly, we were always somewhat scornful of regular army infantry. I doubt its the majority though surely? Even regular infantry the lads must know that you are going to have to... I dunno.. run about a bit. You dont want to look a total tit on your first day do you?!

The Armed forces are probably the worst place to have a bad first day...

Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

mattyrm wrote:
Melissia wrote:Or even basic infantry given the average recruit for the basic infantry (a lot of high school dropouts or just-barely-passed grads, for example). I rather expect those who are seriously wanting to get in to special forces to be gung-ho about it.


Possibly, we were always somewhat scornful of regular army infantry. I doubt its the majority though surely? Even regular infantry the lads must know that you are going to have to... I dunno.. run about a bit. You dont want to look a total tit on your first day do you?!


My oldest son went through infantry OSUT about 2 years ago. Once he decided on infantry he knew exactly what was going to be expected of him and was given a 'do this work out' program several months before his ship date, and was expected to be in shape when he showed up.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

purplefood wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Melissia wrote:Or even basic infantry given the average recruit for the basic infantry (a lot of high school dropouts or just-barely-passed grads, for example). I rather expect those who are seriously wanting to get in to special forces to be gung-ho about it.


Possibly, we were always somewhat scornful of regular army infantry. I doubt its the majority though surely? Even regular infantry the lads must know that you are going to have to... I dunno.. run about a bit. You dont want to look a total tit on your first day do you?!

The Armed forces are probably the worst place to have a bad first day...
Ah, reminds me of the fat little school nazi that tried to join the marines from my high school class. I wonder how long he lasted? Maybe he even reformed.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
 
Forum Index » Off-Topic Forum
Go to: