Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They will eventually die due to price increasing too much.

Kroothawk wrote:GW already has reached the limit where price hikes don't lead to higher revenue but are completely eaten up by lower sales and lost customers. It is only a matter of time when revenue falls down sharply. Only the total retirement of Tom Kirby and a total exchange of management can save GW.

In fact, this kind of break even point might have already been reached.

I know absolutely nothing about exactly what they're doing or thinking. A friend of mine seems to think GW is raising prices in part to be a sort of "designer" game, in addition to smoothing out their sales throughout the year. Like I said, I don't know, but that's a decent theory.

Personally, I don't really care. I'm not buying NEARLY as many GW miniatures any more, and my purchasing will probably decline even further. I designed my own IG regiment thing from scratch along with vehicles and i"m casting that stuff up for myself. I've gotten into Warpath, and if 6th is crap, that'll be my main game. I've been on a downward slide for a while, mostly because I don't care for how GW doesn't give it's gamers ANYTHING. No hints, no news, nothing.

I have a friend who's practically boycotting GW not only because they seem to jerk customers around, but also because the prices have increased way too much for his liking. He's done.

So to answer OP's question: Yes, I think GW is committing a slow corporate suicide.

Mad4Minis wrote:They wont go out of business. They are reaching the point where the "sell less at a higher price" business model will fail. That, combined with the flood of other good games at cheaper prices will force them to go to the "sell more volume for lower price" model in order to build thier sales volume and regain customer base.

Pretty much this. Even the most inept person working there has to realize at some point that they are losing customers and have to drastically lower prices. The question is, will it be too late to make a difference.

lol at you guys. I'm at my local GW yesterday, putting together a razorback....and the place is packed. I saw 2-3 doom scythes go off the shelf, someone bought a Stormraven..and then a family who sounded australian came in and had a stack of boxes (chaos stuff I think) that was 4 feet high. Oh, I was there for maybe 2 hours.

GW is fine, their model is fine. Here's the thing, everybody who complains about the price...as mean as it is...they don't WANT you to buy anything. They don't want average regular people with average salaries (or who's parents have average salaries) to be the heart of the hobby. They want the top 1% of salary earners to drop loads of money on something creative and well "exclusive".

GW is fine, if you can't afford something now...it's because they don't want you. Accept it and move onto a horrible and cheap alternative...

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:lol at you guys. I'm at my local GW yesterday, putting together a razorback....and the place is packed. I saw 2-3 doom scythes go off the shelf, someone bought a Stormraven..and then a family who sounded australian came in and had a stack of boxes (chaos stuff I think) that was 4 feet high. Oh, I was there for maybe 2 hours.

GW is fine, their model is fine. Here's the thing, everybody who complains about the price...as mean as it is...they don't WANT you to buy anything. They don't want average regular people with average salaries (or who's parents have average salaries) to be the heart of the hobby. They want the top 1% of salary earners to drop loads of money on something creative and well "exclusive".

GW is fine, if you can't afford something now...it's because they don't want you. Accept it and move onto a horrible and cheap alternative...

As a general rule that top 1% doesn't want their children to play warhammer.

Actually, what deggreg just said is so unbelievably mental I'm not even going to bother with a response other than GW may want the 1%, but they're delusional if they think there are enough 1%'ers who are both interested in tabletop gaming and willing to spend a premium on it to keep the company afloat.

I've already moved on to a better and cheaper alternative, thanks.

GW fanboys vs PP fanboys.

/popcorn

Surtur wrote:WAR didn't suffer from being a WoW clone, it suffered from severe suck. The graphics could be compared to Half Life 1, the animation was terrible and the game lagged.

The game didn't lag--it was a memory leak issue which took them a bit to solve.

The biggest problem that it suffered from, quite simply, is that people expected a lot from a MMO launch. You see it every time a MMO launches, where inevitably everyone compares it to "the launch of WoW which was totally flawless"(it wasn't. The launch of WoW was a fething trainwreck. The servers constantly crashed, they had memory leak issues, peoples' account registration didn't work, people were billed multiple times per subscription period, etc. Inevitably, the same thing happens every expansion launch for WoW as well).
They also had a big problem in that Blizzard superdupersubtly decided to have the "Wrath of the Lich King" preview patch (which unleashed all the WOTLK talent trees) launch the very next week after WAR was doing semi-okay.

Blizzard did the same thing this year, announcing the "Mists of Panderia" expansion when The Old Republic launched. It's their MO. It's sneaky, it's underhanded, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. People will inevitably flock back to Blizzard and WoW simply because it's a "better game"(which has had a little over half a decade to polish itself up) and they don't want to suffer through the launch of a MMO.

Kanluwen wrote:

Surtur wrote:WAR didn't suffer from being a WoW clone, it suffered from severe suck. The graphics could be compared to Half Life 1, the animation was terrible and the game lagged.

The game didn't lag--it was a memory leak issue which took them a bit to solve.

The biggest problem that it suffered from, quite simply, is that people expected a lot from a MMO launch. You see it every time a MMO launches, where inevitably everyone compares it to "the launch of WoW which was totally flawless"(it wasn't. The launch of WoW was a fething trainwreck. The servers constantly crashed, they had memory leak issues, peoples' account registration didn't work, people were billed multiple times per subscription period, etc. Inevitably, the same thing happens every expansion launch for WoW as well).
They also had a big problem in that Blizzard superdupersubtly decided to have the "Wrath of the Lich King" preview patch (which unleashed all the WOTLK talent trees) launch the very next week after WAR was doing semi-okay.

Blizzard did the same thing this year, announcing the "Mists of Panderia" expansion when The Old Republic launched. It's their MO. It's sneaky, it's underhanded, and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. People will inevitably flock back to Blizzard and WoW simply because it's a "better game"(which has had a little over half a decade to polish itself up) and they don't want to suffer through the launch of a MMO.

Pretty much this, though I think the gross class imbalances in PvP and Mythic's spectacular slowness in addressing them (instead, in fact, choosing to add the Land of the Dead update before doing so) also really hurt it. Obviously perfect balance is difficult, if not impossible, to achieve, but WAR didn't even come close.

loki old fart wrote:

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:lol at you guys. I'm at my local GW yesterday, putting together a razorback....and the place is packed. I saw 2-3 doom scythes go off the shelf, someone bought a Stormraven..and then a family who sounded australian came in and had a stack of boxes (chaos stuff I think) that was 4 feet high. Oh, I was there for maybe 2 hours.

GW is fine, their model is fine. Here's the thing, everybody who complains about the price...as mean as it is...they don't WANT you to buy anything. They don't want average regular people with average salaries (or who's parents have average salaries) to be the heart of the hobby. They want the top 1% of salary earners to drop loads of money on something creative and well "exclusive".

GW is fine, if you can't afford something now...it's because they don't want you. Accept it and move onto a horrible and cheap alternative...

As a general rule that top 1% doesn't want their children to play warhammer.

what do you base this statement on?

Even rich people have hobbies. I know if I was bringing in the cash. I'd have one of those 10,000 point strong Space Marine army, like I see in some Dakkaites sigs.

However mark my words. GW cannot keep this up much longer, they will get a reckoning in the pocket.

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:

loki old fart wrote:

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:lol at you guys. I'm at my local GW yesterday, putting together a razorback....and the place is packed. I saw 2-3 doom scythes go off the shelf, someone bought a Stormraven..and then a family who sounded australian came in and had a stack of boxes (chaos stuff I think) that was 4 feet high. Oh, I was there for maybe 2 hours.

GW is fine, their model is fine. Here's the thing, everybody who complains about the price...as mean as it is...they don't WANT you to buy anything. They don't want average regular people with average salaries (or who's parents have average salaries) to be the heart of the hobby. They want the top 1% of salary earners to drop loads of money on something creative and well "exclusive".

GW is fine, if you can't afford something now...it's because they don't want you. Accept it and move onto a horrible and cheap alternative...

As a general rule that top 1% doesn't want their children to play warhammer.

what do you base this statement on?

Your own statement is based on anecdotal evidence, so it's pretty much par for the course.

heartserenade wrote:

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:

loki old fart wrote:

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:lol at you guys. I'm at my local GW yesterday, putting together a razorback....and the place is packed. I saw 2-3 doom scythes go off the shelf, someone bought a Stormraven..and then a family who sounded australian came in and had a stack of boxes (chaos stuff I think) that was 4 feet high. Oh, I was there for maybe 2 hours.

GW is fine, their model is fine. Here's the thing, everybody who complains about the price...as mean as it is...they don't WANT you to buy anything. They don't want average regular people with average salaries (or who's parents have average salaries) to be the heart of the hobby. They want the top 1% of salary earners to drop loads of money on something creative and well "exclusive".

GW is fine, if you can't afford something now...it's because they don't want you. Accept it and move onto a horrible and cheap alternative...

As a general rule that top 1% doesn't want their children to play warhammer.

what do you base this statement on?

ha..i guess ur right. I will say that my local GW, and I've been there twice since the price hike, is still busy and positive and fun and like I said, I saw dude move $700 of product in 2 hours to people who obviously didn't care that the stormraven is seven million dollars now. If there is a pullback from GW, it's not showing up in store traffic...and that's from what I've actually seen .

Your own statement is based on anecdotal evidence, so it's pretty much par for the course.

Actuaklly while i hate the policy GW price rises are fairly sound busines policy.

Yes increased prices do drive down sales, but obviously not by enough, however reduced sales do also reduce overheads, for example if prices double you need only seel half as much, which means you only need to produce and stock half as much.

GW are exploring their market, watching very carefully what happens at every level of price rise. At some point they will have to stop, except to account for general inflation.

loki old fart wrote:

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:lol at you guys. I'm at my local GW yesterday, putting together a razorback....and the place is packed. I saw 2-3 doom scythes go off the shelf, someone bought a Stormraven..and then a family who sounded australian came in and had a stack of boxes (chaos stuff I think) that was 4 feet high. Oh, I was there for maybe 2 hours.

GW is fine, their model is fine. Here's the thing, everybody who complains about the price...as mean as it is...they don't WANT you to buy anything. They don't want average regular people with average salaries (or who's parents have average salaries) to be the heart of the hobby. They want the top 1% of salary earners to drop loads of money on something creative and well "exclusive".

GW is fine, if you can't afford something now...it's because they don't want you. Accept it and move onto a horrible and cheap alternative...

As a general rule that top 1% doesn't want their children to play warhammer.

as a parent and in the top 5%, I am ok with my kids playing warhammer.

Warhammer is a hobby. it is artistic and challenging and cheap.
for a $1000 you can go pickup almost any 2k army and the rules and keep you busy for years.
GW is way cheaper then my other hobbies, like car restoration and kite boarding.
Hell i spend more on booze in a year then I do in games workshop.
the Ork bommas were cool i picked up three. GW will not go out of business. They will keep chugging along.

haters will hate.
people need to look at other hobbies and see the warhammer is not that expensive.

GW is fine. Ive been in auto retail most of my employed life and you want to talk yearly price increase? And you may argue that everybody needs a car, but not everybody needs a Cobra, Supra, or something excessive. But if you are the type of person those units appeal to, then you will find a way to purchase and maintain it. And you will pay the inflated prices for the "good stuff" oil, tires, mods, etc. Maybe in a few years youll upgrade to a new model that is ten grand more than what you bought before. And you will do it with a smile on your face because thats your hobby, your love, your pride and joy, your lifestyle.

I dont smile when i dump 500 bucks a year on rear tires for my Cobra. I grumble and mutter halfass GW complaints to the cashier when i fork out 50+ dollars on a bunch of plastic space men. But i bust my ass to make a decent amount of money and when I put another cocky driver in my rearview or i wipe that last drop of paint onto a tiny plastic scroll i realize its worth it, im creating memories, and thank god im not glued onto COD or some other garbage pasttime.

My only comment on the status of GW is i hope they are able to sort their video game issues out. That is a huge gateway to draw people to the hobby (Space Marine is the entire reason im here today, $1000+ poorer lol). And they need more of a push into the media. A movie for instance. Merch would help too. Clothing, scale action figures, stickers for the car, etc.

Wow some people have their heads up their own rear in this thread.

I am not sure if this has been posted yet. Very informative.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/06/editorial-gw-double-edged-sword-of.html

If I recall correctly there hasn't been a price hike in AUS/NZ this year. It could mean that they have possibly hit the point where raising prices there is hurting them more in those regions. We will just have to wait and see.

Just a thought. I have an avid interest in art and art history, and I am proficient in sculpting, painting, and drawing with various media, point being, I can accurately render your face in clay, stone, in oil on canvas, acrylic, with pencil, charcoal, or pastel.

This hobby is not "artistic." If you want to get your kids something artistic, get them a few heavy weight sheets of paper and a set of Prismacolors or pastels and pay for a few art lessons.

This is about having a hobby, modeling, splicing, making beautiful models conceptualized by other professional artists and showing them off to others. It's about playing games, making friends, and most of all, enjoying the intellectual property that Games Workshop has a death grip over. In return, they continue to pay artists and designers and Codex writers and professional writers to create high quality master sculpts, concept art, Codexes and Codex art, and books. In other words, your function is to enjoy, or amalgamate into your lifestyle, the art that other people have produced.

There is nothing wrong with this. Filmmakers watch Akira Kurosawa and Citizen Kane and appreciate its beauty. I am stunned by the majesty of sculpture and tapestry in the city's art museums. I am stunned by the art in GW's codexes, by the creativity of their designs, by the complexity of their universe and the rich flavor of it. It's why I would rather play 40k or nothing at all.

But if you were really creative, or interested in a creative pursuit, you wouldn't need GW beyond their simple industrial base and the raw material and bits they produce. And the fact of the matter is that higher quality and more ductile materials exist than the ones that you will find on your local GW shop for creative expression. Canvas, paint, hammer and chisel, granite. Michelangelo crafted The David without reference to Codex Space Marines.

I have never seen such a flaccid deflection as the idea that you continue, tepidly, to pursue funding Games Workshop for the purpose of developing your kids' artistic skills. If that's the case, I would seriously suggest that you consult me or someone better educated, preferably a professional, on an actual avenue that would develop your children's, or your own, creative talents.

Admittedly, this has been one hell of an interesting thread and a damn long lasting one at that.

Great to see constructive observations from the community.

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:

loki old fart wrote:

deggreg@yahoo.com wrote:lol at you guys. I'm at my local GW yesterday, putting together a razorback....and the place is packed. I saw 2-3 doom scythes go off the shelf, someone bought a Stormraven..and then a family who sounded australian came in and had a stack of boxes (chaos stuff I think) that was 4 feet high. Oh, I was there for maybe 2 hours.

GW is fine, their model is fine. Here's the thing, everybody who complains about the price...as mean as it is...they don't WANT you to buy anything. They don't want average regular people with average salaries (or who's parents have average salaries) to be the heart of the hobby. They want the top 1% of salary earners to drop loads of money on something creative and well "exclusive".

GW is fine, if you can't afford something now...it's because they don't want you. Accept it and move onto a horrible and cheap alternative...

As a general rule that top 1% doesn't want their children to play warhammer.

what do you base this statement on?

The old mans birthday. Did he want to buy an army? no. He spent all day negotiating for a 75, 000 pound boat, and mooring fee's....
If you want to white knight, at least be credible.

PS If you want a boat got some beautiful one's at the mulberry marina Conway

skkipper wrote:
as a parent and in the top 5%, I am ok with my kids playing warhammer.

Warhammer is a hobby. it is artistic and challenging and cheap.
for a $1000 you can go pickup almost any 2k army and the rules and keep you busy for years.
GW is way cheaper then my other hobbies, like car restoration and kite boarding.
Hell i spend more on booze in a year then I do in games workshop.
the Ork bommas were cool i picked up three. GW will not go out of business. They will keep chugging along.

haters will hate. so old sing something else
people need to look at other hobbies and see the warhammer is not that expensive.

Well that's one customer then, only a few thousand to go.

TedNugent wrote:Just a thought. I have an avid interest in art and art history, and I am proficient in sculpting, painting, and drawing with various media, point being, I can accurately render your face in clay, stone, in oil on canvas, acrylic, with pencil, charcoal, or pastel.

This hobby is not "artistic." If you want to get your kids something artistic, get them a few heavy weight sheets of paper and a set of Prismacolors or pastels and pay for a few art lessons.

This is about having a hobby, modeling, splicing, making beautiful models conceptualized by other professional artists and showing them off to others. It's about playing games, making friends, and most of all, enjoying the intellectual property that Games Workshop has a death grip over. In return, they continue to pay artists and designers and Codex writers and professional writers to create high quality master sculpts, concept art, Codexes and Codex art, and books. In other words, your function is to enjoy, or amalgamate into your lifestyle, the art that other people have produced.

There is nothing wrong with this. Filmmakers watch Akira Kurosawa and Citizen Kane and appreciate its beauty. I am stunned by the majesty of sculpture and tapestry in the city's art museums. I am stunned by the art in GW's codexes, by the creativity of their designs, by the complexity of their universe and the rich flavor of it. It's why I would rather play 40k or nothing at all.

But if you were really creative, or interested in a creative pursuit, you wouldn't need GW beyond their simple industrial base and the raw material and bits they produce. And the fact of the matter is that higher quality and more ductile materials exist than the ones that you will find on your local GW shop for creative expression. Canvas, paint, hammer and chisel, granite. Michelangelo crafted The David without reference to Codex Space Marines.

I have never seen such a flaccid deflection as the idea that you continue, tepidly, to pursue funding Games Workshop for the purpose of developing your kids' artistic skills. If that's the case, I would seriously suggest that you consult me or someone better educated, preferably a professional, on an actual avenue that would develop your children's, or your own, creative talents.

My parents buying me a paint set and some minis when i was a kid was what got me interested in art.

TedNugent wrote:Just a thought. I have an avid interest in art and art history, and I am proficient in sculpting, painting, and drawing with various media, point being, I can accurately render your face in clay, stone, in oil on canvas, acrylic, with pencil, charcoal, or pastel.

This hobby is not "artistic." If you want to get your kids something artistic, get them a few heavy weight sheets of paper and a set of Prismacolors or pastels and pay for a few art lessons.

This is about having a hobby, modeling, splicing, making beautiful models conceptualized by other professional artists and showing them off to others. It's about playing games, making friends, and most of all, enjoying the intellectual property that Games Workshop has a death grip over. In return, they continue to pay artists and designers and Codex writers and professional writers to create high quality master sculpts, concept art, Codexes and Codex art, and books. In other words, your function is to enjoy, or amalgamate into your lifestyle, the art that other people have produced.

There is nothing wrong with this. Filmmakers watch Akira Kurosawa and Citizen Kane and appreciate its beauty. I am stunned by the majesty of sculpture and tapestry in the city's art museums. I am stunned by the art in GW's codexes, by the creativity of their designs, by the complexity of their universe and the rich flavor of it. It's why I would rather play 40k or nothing at all.

But if you were really creative, or interested in a creative pursuit, you wouldn't need GW beyond their simple industrial base and the raw material and bits they produce. And the fact of the matter is that higher quality and more ductile materials exist than the ones that you will find on your local GW shop for creative expression. Canvas, paint, hammer and chisel, granite. Michelangelo crafted The David without reference to Codex Space Marines.

I have never seen such a flaccid deflection as the idea that you continue, tepidly, to pursue funding Games Workshop for the purpose of developing your kids' artistic skills. If that's the case, I would seriously suggest that you consult me or someone better educated, preferably a professional, on an actual avenue that would develop your children's, or your own, creative talents.

What an arrogant condescending post, not to mention incorrect. Like it or not, mini painting is a hell of a lot more artistic than most passtimes a child endulges in, and anything that can encourage children to be more artistic is a good thing.
Im sorry we all do not match up to your artistic greatness, but you have to realise, us normal people do not all share your opinions.
For many younglings, this hobby is an entry point into something artistic, which they would not otherwise indulge in.

TedNugent wrote:This hobby is not "artistic." If you want to get your kids something artistic, get them a few heavy weight sheets of paper and a set of Prismacolors or pastels and pay for a few art lessons.

Well, as an illustrator, I do think this hobby is artistic.
Yes you can give your kids all the best quality art supplies in the world and tell them to create, but they'll just shrug and go play xbox.
I see this hobby as kind of 'gateway art'. It allows you to be creative (colour schemes, painting technique, conversions) within well-defined boundaries. It introduces kids to an artistic environment in which they can achieve good looking results within a reasonable timeframe and not have to suffer through years of gakky drawings before anything worthwhile comes out.
People who spray their marines blue and call it a day were never going to be interested in art in the first place, but people who might otherwise not have picked up a brush and realise they like it may well venture deeper into the creative world.

Pitboy2710 wrote:My parents buying me a paint set and some minis when i was a kid was what got me interested in art.

my point

So, people are spending less money on expensive non essentials during a global recession, who would have thought it.

Rayvon wrote:What an arrogant condescending post, not to mention incorrect.

Would you say it's more or less condescending than the guy basically saying "I have a Cobra, I make a lot of money, and I think the prices are fine."?

I hate that gak so much, lol. "Tires for my sports car cost almost as much as your army, so you have no right to complain!" Must be fething nice. I work my ass off too you know, still can't afford GW.

Which is how it should be, apparently. Us inferior, bottom-feeding dregs would just hurt GW and their brand by being seen in their prestigious stores, playing with their world-renowned miniatures. We were wrong to get all uppity and start thinking we were worthy enough to play, we all need to stop kidding ourselves and go back to wallowing in our shitholes, enjoying our horrible, cheap, garbage pasttimes.

The actual issue is that GW has little real competition.

Regardless of how they 'see themselves' or whether they want to be a 'boutique product' (or whatever corporate flim-flam people feel a need to throw into this debate as justification for their seemingly endless price rises) the points are simple.

Compared to their competitors:
1. They have very poor and unbalanced rules.
2. Their miniatures are vastly overcosted for the quantity and quality of the casts themselves (finecast are easily some of the worst resin pieces you will find despite their premium pricetag, the plastics are just as good as any other companies but again the price-per-model is about the highest you will find).
3. They do not communicate with their customers, accept no feedback or advertise effectively (or indeed, at all).
4. They do not support factions (or whole games!) for excessive periods of time.

BUT:
5. They have a very well-established background that (for all the recent Necron-related retconning) has wide appeal and acceptance amongst the gaming community.
6. Their plastic kits have a much greater degree of flexibilty to customise models than normal and have more and crisper detail than other kits (due to design rather than casting).
7. They have a unique chain of brick-and-mortar stores effectively guaranteeing them a self-perpetuating player base that has no exposure to other games. Also their 'one stop shop' approach by providing paints, brushes, tools, scenery etc. means their customers do not need to go to other stores to look for gaming essentials, further limiting the likelihood of coming accross competitors.
8. They have a wide range of 'gateway' products such as Black Library novels and computer games that provide exposure outwith the normal gaming community and raises their public profile alongside their branded B&M stores.
9. They have a successful and well run schools league and other club tie-ins to encourage (particularly) younger gamers to invest in them.

In order for GW to have an incentive to fix 1-4 they need to be challenged on 5-9. Companies are getting there slowly on points 5 and 6 but for GW to address the issues that people have with them the key is to challenge the public perception that GW is the only show in town.

If Gamers were exposed to Infinity, Kings of War/Warpath, Warmachine/Hordes, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars/Uncharted Seas/Firestorm Armada etc not to mention the countless historicals systems from the start and could make informed judgements on their hobby at the buy-in point, GW would have no choice but to change the way it does business or its dominant position would be threatened.

The only question left is how can this be achieved?

Back in the late 90s/early 2000s, I ran a game store. GW business was booming locally for us. 40K/WFB models were pricey, but affordable enough that our regulars would start new armies after they finished with the current one. Specialist games actually brought in a decent amount too, with local Blood Bowl and Mordheim leagues.

Now I don't see anyone locally with more than one 40K army and/or one WFB army. The majority opinion is that it's just too expensive. I see a lot of these people starting WarmaHordes, Infinity and Malifaux, along with a couple that are super excited about Dropzone Commander.

The point I am trying to make is back then they were making money off veterans buying 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th armies. They have priced themselves out of that, to the point where some local players are even privately griping that they are considering selling their 40K armies rather than give GW more money for a new rulebook. That is dissatisfaction a competitor couldn't buy for GW.

Rayvon wrote:What an arrogant condescending post, not to mention incorrect. Like it or not, mini painting is a hell of a lot more artistic than most passtimes a child endulges in, and anything that can encourage children to be more artistic is a good thing.
Im sorry we all do not match up to your artistic greatness, but you have to realise, us normal people do not all share your opinions.
For many younglings, this hobby is an entry point into something artistic, which they would not otherwise indulge in.

Painting 40k miniatures is to art what a tricycle is to owning a Kawasaki Ninja. You said it yourself, it's an entry point. Something to be surpassed. I paint decent looking miniatures, but I would never, ever call myself an artist of what I do to be art. That would be condescension.

This is not art.



It's a plastic toy with a Japanese masterpiece inexpertly copied on it. By me.

That particular example may not be 'art', but that can be said of many examples of what is surely called art by their creators, commonly found along highways or in suburbs.

To me, you can't define art, even though I'm sure many textbooks try to (and many people with them, claiming it as absolute truth).