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Grimtuff wrote:EDIT: Heh, 1066 posts. Rather apt (if you know me IRL. )

Why? Are you the reincarnation of William the Conqueror?

If so, sod off back to France

No, he has an arrow in his eye.

Grimtuff to Dakka, Cyclops to his mates.

Flashman wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:EDIT: Heh, 1066 posts. Rather apt (if you know me IRL. )

Why? Are you the reincarnation of William the Conqueror?

If so, sod off back to France

notprop wrote:No, he has an arrow in his eye.

Grimtuff to Dakka, Cyclops to his mates.

To put you both out of your misery my surname is Hastings.

They don't need to raise prices, they need to keep releases coming. These lulls where literally nothing is released doesn't help, and keeping models from being released when people want them doesn't do any good.

Also there is a trend of using non-GW models in events. Since really its up to the organizers now what they allow as GW support has gone the way of the DoDo bird. Like manticgames. I have seen numerous VS armies that use the MG zombies and skeletons, becuase A)they are far cheaper to field the numbers you need and B)in my opinion just a better looking model (no stupid over sized hands etc etc). I for one am planning on converting a force using the Orks rules, which means yes I will buy a bomber or two and some def koptas (those will be from ebay cause the plastic ones are just that awesome) and I will be converting "da boyz" from mantics soon to be released Veer-myn. Space Skaven for the win!! But I still want to support my FLGS so I am ordering the Veer-myn through them instead of an online discount house. Look for more of this....more use of other model ranges.

Oh and let me say how much of a crap rag White Dwarf has become.....and $9 really GW really? I can get the subsrciption figure at full retail price if I get a subscription? What happened to getting the figure free with a subscription?

Davylove21 wrote:It seems to me that they have the readies in the bank to take risks like making SM battleforces £80 RRP. If it works, hooker and blow party at Kirby's place. If it doesn't, they can probably swallow the hit and put the prices back.

Fixed. Honestly who has ever heard of a meth party? Meth is for impoverished rednecks, not a party drug like cocaine or ecstasy.

Fetterkey wrote:
I don't think 6th Edition will bring new people in like The Hobbit likely will, but I do think it will reinvigorate a lot of existing players whose interest in 5th Edition is flagging.

While I enjoy 5th edition, I'm starting to get a bit tired of it. When I went home a few months ago I picked up my old Kryomek rulebook and started looking around for new rulesets to spark my interest. Then I read the "pancake" edition of 40k and my interest was completely reinvigorated. I can't be alone in this, and the 6th ed anticipation has me pretty jazzed.

the new warpath minis are truelly great for imp guard elysians too, or any high tech guard to be fair.

I don't buy GW products all that often, maybe once every half a year or so, and certainly not in the volumes required to build an army.

For that reason alone, I don't particularly notice the price increases - I splash out on nice models from other companies, so I don't see see the difference in doing the same for GW.

They've got some really nice stuff out of late, particularly the Vampire Counts carriage-thing (I think it's called the Mortis Throne or something), but it's no more a priority purchase than anything else.

weeble1000 wrote:

Barksdale wrote:
I just don't understand this pre-occupation with GW prices. The product is a luxery one, and people always want more than they can have or more than they can afford. How is this GW's fault? The answer is simple: it is not. I wil also note here that GW has one of the best customer service departments in ANY business, often replacing more than the original defective product.

I've never been a fan of this "luxury good" argument. Yes, hobby products are non-essential. However, being a non-essential good does not mean that comparative value ceases to be a concern of a discerning consumer. Does GW provide excellent quality products? Yes, principally with regard to its plastic injection molded kits. Are GW's injection molded plastic kits some of the best in the industry? Absolutely. Are they worth as much as GW chooses to charge for them? That question is more than fair, and any reasonable consumer will ask and answer that question. Compared to other products on the market, I believe GW's prices are bordering on unreasonably high. I can get more "bang for my buck" from the company's competitors, who unilaterally treat their customers with more respect and concern than Games Workshop (the customer service department not withstanding).

GW makes a transparent habit of regularly increasing prices with little or not respect to production cots or the economy with such consistency that it has become laughable.

Why is the Storm Raven kit 25% more expensive? Did GW re-engineer the mold? Did the cost of producing that kit suddenly rise by 25% in the last year? Is the economy trending down so badly year over year that GW must make up the deficit by driving the price of that kit higher? I couldn't care less as I have never purchased a Storm Raven kit, nor will I ever do so. But the price increase is arbitrary. It is the summer, GW is increasing its prices again. GW feels that its customers will not whine at a 25% increase in the cost of the kit. GW wants to push its revenue higher. End of story.

If you think the kit is worth 80 bucks, buy it. If not, don't. And if you felt that last year's price was fair, communicate that to Games Workshop. Just because you WANT a Storm Raven kit rather than NEEDING it does not mean that you cannot have a valid opinion about the value of the product.

Extremely well put.

I have heard people have this discussions for about ten, fifteen years now, and GW dont go anywhere.

Rayvon wrote:I have heard people have this discussions for about ten, fifteen years now, and GW dont go anywhere.

Really? On the Internet in 1997 discussing the death of GW were we? Pull the other one. Thing is GW WERE in major danger of dying on their arse 15 years ago due to the Pokemon craze that sucked away their main demographic quicker than... something that does that. GW held on, due to setting ruthless daily sale targets for their stores and other factors then came their boom period from LOTR, which incidentally was about 10 years ago, another period where I highly doubt people would have been preaching doom about GW.

All it takes is another Pokemon to come along and GW is dead in the water.

A quick note on the financial history of GW plc.

From 1988 to 1997 gw(plc) doubled turn over every 3 years.(Despite holding sales and not incresing prices over inflation every year, or gouging the ROW.. )

1998 to 2000 growth slowed down,(Due to the tradeing card games.)(£76M to £91M from memory.)

2001 to 2004 , GW plc '...grew fat and lazy on the back of easy sucess...' of the LoTR licence.(Admitted by Mr Kirby.)
Thier turn over went up to £151M!(From memory.)
Then the LotR bubble burst.

And GW plc started loosing sales volumes.So GW plc put prices up to cover lost sales volumes, and the sales volumes plummeted faster.
SO GW plc increased the retail prices again to make up for lost sales volumes , and guess what happened!

I remember reading a report on here where the projected turn over adjusted for the rate of inlfation (average UK.)
EG all values in todays money.
Showed 2004 turn over at £174 M.(From memory.)

So GW plc lost 28% of its customers after the LoTR boom.

But how much did they loose if we factor in the price rises over inflation since then?(GW plc prices have more or less doubled on average , after infation is taken into acount.)
Odly enough its about half of its sales volumes.

Who would have thunk it?
Writing rules specificaly for a fickel demoghraphic that dont promote long term interest.Coupled with raising prices over inflation every year.
Actualy looses you customer faster than you can recoup money of the remaining ones!

When the game developers were left alone to develop and support a wide range of games for gamers, GW doubled its turn over every 3 years.
Since Kirby decided GW plc '...is in the buisness of selling toy soldier to children...' they have lost sales volumes ever since.

Before some one points out Kirby was at GW from 1986 ,he lead the managment buy out in 1992 etc.
He only started to 'influence ' games development in 1998.(40k 3rd ed .)And had 'heavy influence' on game development since the early 2000s.

(All figures from memory are within the 10M mark(Eg £76 M, is definatley 70 somethingM. )

scarletsquig wrote:If people are crazy enough to buy £25.50 Empire Greatswords (and they are), then GW has absolutely nothing to worry about.

I'm about as big a fan of Mantic as you can get, but this idea that GW is going to collapse or is doomed to fail is completely wrong... wealthy parents looking to buy the new "space mans mega-tank" for little Timmy so he'll stop whining for a few weeks are not going to care if it's $41 or $56.

The veterans market is worthless to GW, they are older players who have already spent thousands with GW, already have armies and don't spend as much as newcomers while also being more cynical and vocally critical about the company, and are harder to fool into paying high prices. If we leave, they don't really care, and their bottom line has never been dependant on us as a demographic, so it's really not going to hurt much to continue with their current strategy.

GW are excellent for recruiting new people into the broader wargaming hobby, something which their retail stores do an excellent job of.

They're not stupid, or incompetent, they are highly efficient at producing a high dividend yield for their shareholders, which is the primary concern of every publically-floated company on the planet.

I think a lot of people project their own personal irritation on to the company quite often, trying to justify their anger by saying how it's all going to end in tears and the company will go bankrupt, when the odds of that happening are very slim indeed.

Really well written post, I agree with it completely!

The price increase doesn't hit me that hard, mainly because i don't play the games ( any games ) i just paint the models.

I tend to just buy one or two boxes a time.

I have wanted to get in to playing but can't justify the cost of buying an army

helium42 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The Hobbit and 40k 6th edition are right around the corner. Unless GW screws up massively, I think they're actually poised to surge dramatically ahead. Does anyone else remember how GW did back when the Lord of the Rings movies were coming out? Right now, GW's debatably in a bit of a holding pattern, but they can afford to bide their time and wait until these big new games bolster their playerbase dramatically.

GW will see a major surge in revenue from the release of the Hobbit, but how long will that last? A year or maybe two?

I disagree that 6th edition will have the same effect that the Hobbit release will have. I'm not sure if people outside the hobby will jump in simply because a new edition is released. Most people outside of the wargaming circles are blissfully unaware that 6th edition is coming out, so how will they be pulled in by such a thing? If anything, raising prices right before an edition change might put some people off of picking up the new rulebook. I know I'll be waiting for the small paperback version that will likely come with the 6th edition starter set to come out and then pick one up on Ebay.

Me too.

No way I'm going to pay £45 for a massive hardback most of which (fluff and modelling) is recycled from previous editions. I only want the rules.

scarletsquig wrote:If people are crazy enough to buy £25.50 Empire Greatswords (and they are), then GW has absolutely nothing to worry about.

I'm about as big a fan of Mantic as you can get, but this idea that GW is going to collapse or is doomed to fail is completely wrong... wealthy parents looking to buy the new "space mans mega-tank" for little Timmy so he'll stop whining for a few weeks are not going to care if it's $41 or $56.

The veterans market is worthless to GW, they are older players who have already spent thousands with GW, already have armies and don't spend as much as newcomers while also being more cynical and vocally critical about the company, and are harder to fool into paying high prices. If we leave, they don't really care, and their bottom line has never been dependant on us as a demographic, so it's really not going to hurt much to continue with their current strategy.

GW are excellent for recruiting new people into the broader wargaming hobby, something which their retail stores do an excellent job of.

They're not stupid, or incompetent, they are highly efficient at producing a high dividend yield for their shareholders, which is the primary concern of every publically-floated company on the planet.

I think a lot of people project their own personal irritation on to the company quite often, trying to justify their anger by saying how it's all going to end in tears and the company will go bankrupt, when the odds of that happening are very slim indeed.

While I agree, in the main, lets not forget, companies can and do go bust. Ok, Ford and GM haven't gone bust yet, but look at how close they came to catastrophy?!? Look at the number of video games companies going to the wall, retail chains!?

If you take any one of those victims of change, you'd probably find, at the core of their demise, a combination of bad luck, flat-lined markets, and bad decision making......it's really that simple.

GW isn't protected from these things in the same way that Banks and (by and large) the Automotive sector is (in terms of Government funding, etc), and we mustn't forget, being floated on the stock exchange means that GW is competeing for investors alongside major pharmaceuticals, arms manufacturers and ginats like Hasbro, etc.....

While I don't believe things will go wrong for them in the short term, it is and will always remain a possibility.

Yeah, £12 from a bitz store for the mini rule book after they break it up for minitures is my plan.

That said it's my birthday on the 12 June so if you fellers are getting me the new 40k boxed game then I may not have to. Thanks in advance by the way.

notprop wrote:Yeah, £12 from a bitz store for the mini rule book after they break it up for minitures is my plan.

That said it's my birthday on the 12 June so if you fellers are getting me the new 40k boxed game then I may not have to. Thanks in advance by the way.

Oops, we thought you wanted a puppy?

weeble1000 wrote:

Barksdale wrote:
I just don't understand this pre-occupation with GW prices. The product is a luxery one, and people always want more than they can have or more than they can afford. How is this GW's fault? The answer is simple: it is not. I wil also note here that GW has one of the best customer service departments in ANY business, often replacing more than the original defective product.

I've never been a fan of this "luxury good" argument. Yes, hobby products are non-essential. However, being a non-essential good does not mean that comparative value ceases to be a concern of a discerning consumer. Does GW provide excellent quality products? Yes, principally with regard to its plastic injection molded kits. Are GW's injection molded plastic kits some of the best in the industry? Absolutely. Are they worth as much as GW chooses to charge for them? That question is more than fair, and any reasonable consumer will ask and answer that question. Compared to other products on the market, I believe GW's prices are bordering on unreasonably high. I can get more "bang for my buck" from the company's competitors, who unilaterally treat their customers with more respect and concern than Games Workshop (the customer service department not withstanding).

GW makes a transparent habit of regularly increasing prices with little or not respect to production cots or the economy with such consistency that it has become laughable.

Why is the Storm Raven kit 25% more expensive? Did GW re-engineer the mold? Did the cost of producing that kit suddenly rise by 25% in the last year? Is the economy trending down so badly year over year that GW must make up the deficit by driving the price of that kit higher? I couldn't care less as I have never purchased a Storm Raven kit, nor will I ever do so. But the price increase is arbitrary. It is the summer, GW is increasing its prices again. GW feels that its customers will not whine at a 25% increase in the cost of the kit. GW wants to push its revenue higher. End of story.

If you think the kit is worth 80 bucks, buy it. If not, don't. And if you felt that last year's price was fair, communicate that to Games Workshop. Just because you WANT a Storm Raven kit rather than NEEDING it does not mean that you cannot have a valid opinion about the value of the product.

Just because you are not a fan of calling GW products luxury goods does not mean that they are not luxury goods. If you want more than you can afford how is this GW's problem? Get a better paying job, or just buy less product. Another possibility is pay cheaper prices at some of the competitors. Unfortunately, you are sacrifcing alot of the quality customization options that the GW plastic kits give. Again, your choice.

Barksdale wrote:
Just because you are not a fan of calling GW products luxury goods does not mean that they are not luxury goods. If you want more than you can afford how is this GW's problem? Get a better paying job, or just buy less product. Another possibility is pay cheaper prices at some of the competitors. Unfortunately, you are sacrifcing alot of the quality customization options that the GW plastic kits give. Again, your choice.

By that reasoning, every toy I buy for my child is a "luxury good".

They are toys and increasingly lower quality ones at that, but GW can charge whatever they wan't for them and past statistics show that approximately 90% of the people will still continue to buy them and that includes a vast majority of those that are claiming "never again" on all the threads going on currently here on Dakka...

Barksdale wrote:If you want more than you can afford how is this GW's problem?

Well, I would think that GW's dwindling sales year on year would tell you exactly how it is GW's problem they are pricing themselves out of the market.

Get a better paying job

Haha, you can have a well paying job and still consider $80-100 for a small plastic kit (and not even a particularly good one unlike many Airfix/etc models in that price range) too much to pay. Besides which, getting a better paying job isn't really something you can just do. I'm sure that there are lots of people who would love to be earning more money, not just so they can pick up overpriced bits of plastic from GW but you know... pay their bills, put food on the table, maybe go on holiday etc...

PhantomViper wrote:

Barksdale wrote:
Just because you are not a fan of calling GW products luxury goods does not mean that they are not luxury goods. If you want more than you can afford how is this GW's problem? Get a better paying job, or just buy less product. Another possibility is pay cheaper prices at some of the competitors. Unfortunately, you are sacrifcing alot of the quality customization options that the GW plastic kits give. Again, your choice.

By that reasoning, every toy I buy for my child is a "luxury good".

They are toys and increasingly lower quality ones at that, but GW can charge whatever they wan't for them and past statistics show that approximately 90% of the people will still continue to buy them and that includes a vast majority of those that are claiming "never again" on all the threads going on currently here on Dakka...

I think it's just a way to vent their frustration really. I'm not concerned if people make those kinds of statements but then continue to buy. It's just human nature to want to vent in these kind of circumstances.

I'm still going to buying GW stuff. I will try to get more of it off of discounted sites but I'm not going to give up 40k or Fantasy because of it. I'll even still buy some things from the shop when I need something quickly or if I want to make sure I get a good cast in case of finecast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverMK2 wrote: Haha, you can have a well paying job and still consider $80-100 for a small plastic kit (and not even a particularly good one unlike many Airfix/etc models in that price range) too much to pay. Besides which, getting a better paying job isn't really something you can just do. I'm sure that there are lots of people who would love to be earning more money, not just so they can pick up overpriced bits of plastic from GW but you know... pay their bills, put food on the table, maybe go on holiday etc...

Yes Airfix do have multi-part plastic kits, but I think local model shops operate in a different way from GW. The main part of the problem is the way that GW operates it's buisness. They run their own shops, with overheads and staff wages along with the rest of it. The store I go to every Saturday runs it's events on that day. Campaign of some sort in the morning and Apocalypse in the afternoon and this requires a member of staff to oversee (It's not a one man store). They have painting classes and beginners classes to teach people how to play the game or how to paint a model and they offer this service freely and OK, I do admit that you could probably find this for free anyway on the net but it's still a cost in their books. They also have to use some of their product to make terrain or for their stores projects.

In a trip to Warhammer World in Nottingham, my friend and I saw a gaming table that litterally had hundreds of pounds, thousands worth even of models being used to decorate the board. Expensive, yes, but totally awesome.

Now I'm not saying that GW aren't greedy money grabbers here. Not saying that at all, but it does get a bit difficult to quantify how much they are ripping you off here when their business operates in a completely different way from it's competitors. Thye even operate in a different way from your FLGS store since most of them usually require you to bring your own terrain.

Delephont wrote:I don't think these price rises will hurt GW in the slightest, sure it will lose a few disgruntled customers, but nothing more.

After the HUGE backlash of last year, with much fist shaking and pelvic thrusts, the dust soon settled and things rapidly went back to how they were. Many of those "die hards" on here that wanted to Boycott GW or swore never to buy another GW product soon went to ground, and with the release of Necrons etc you would see those same names popping up to tell us how they couldn't wait to play the various armies.....

I think the one thing I took away from last years rises were, either you can afford to play or you can't. Theres no evil involved from GWs part, it's not like the Oil or power companies, where you need to buy their goods. With GW it's a choice you make, and then get on with it.

Maybe I'm more mellow, because I pulled away from GW and stayed away, maybe that has given me some more perspective on the issue...I don't know. Bottom line is, GW will continue to charge what the market is willing to bear, and for those people for whom WH40K, etc is their life, methinks the market can bear a lot more than it currently has to!

Same thing will happen this time as well. The release of 6th will be the smoke screen this time.

DarthOvious wrote:Thye even operate in a different way from your FLGS store since most of them usually require you to bring your own terrain.

Say whaaaa?

Is this a common "thing" in the UK? Because in the 5+ LGS that I've entered at one time or another on this side of the pond, not one of them made their players / customers bring their own terrain...

PhantomViper wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:Thye even operate in a different way from your FLGS store since most of them usually require you to bring your own terrain.

Say whaaaa?

Is this a common "thing" in the UK? Because in the 5+ LGS that I've entered at one time or another on this side of the pond, not one of them made their players / customers bring their own terrain...

The independent store in stoke has it's own terrain.

My two FLGS also have their own terrain.

The only interest I have in GW now are their horus heresy novels, and the hobby itself.
Hands down GW models are great for that and just the amount you can do with them. Game play though...I am going to get into Second Edition with some local guys as that is a smaller game with tighter rules.

PhantomViper wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:Thye even operate in a different way from your FLGS store since most of them usually require you to bring your own terrain.

Say whaaaa?

Is this a common "thing" in the UK? Because in the 5+ LGS that I've entered at one time or another on this side of the pond, not one of them made their players / customers bring their own terrain...

Perhaps. I may be making an unwarranted assumption since the FLGS store in the city doesn't have any terrain on their tables from what I could see, but then they play a lot of different things there. I was talking to the store owner in regards to infinity to ask how many players they have there. He told me there is a core few who play but it was difficult running tournaments around infinity since terrain was an issue and it was really needed in a competitive environment for infinity. So they may have some terrain but nothing compared to what you'll find in GW. Both my local store and the one I go to every Saturday make game boards and terrain on a regular basis. My local have just done up a new board, while the store I go to on a Saturday are in the process of converting their own Thunderhawk Gunship using 2 SRs, a vindicator and some movement tray pieces. Although this doesn't outdo one of his previous pieces where he apparently made a dreadnought out of 2 drop pods. I don't know how he did it.

DarthOvious wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

DarthOvious wrote:Thye even operate in a different way from your FLGS store since most of them usually require you to bring your own terrain.

Say whaaaa?

Is this a common "thing" in the UK? Because in the 5+ LGS that I've entered at one time or another on this side of the pond, not one of them made their players / customers bring their own terrain...

Perhaps. I may be making an unwarranted assumption since the FLGS store in the city doesn't have any terrain on their tables from what I could see, but then they play a lot of different things there. I was talking to the store owner in regards to infinity to ask how many players they have there. He told me there is a core few who play but it was difficult running tournaments around infinity since terrain was an issue and it was really needed in a competitive environment for infinity. So they may have some terrain but nothing compared to what you'll find in GW. Both my local store and the one I go to every Saturday make game boards and terrain on a regular basis. My local have just done up a new board, while the store I go to on a Saturday are in the process of converting their own Thunderhawk Gunship using 2 SRs, a vindicator and some movement tray pieces. Although this doesn't outdo one of his previous pieces where he apparently made a dreadnought out of 2 drop pods. I don't know how he did it.

Yeaaaaah, I think you might have misunderstood what the store owner was talking about...

Do you have any idea of the amount of terrain needed to play a competitive game of Infinity?

This much (the vehicles present on the tables are terrain pieces as well btw):





An average 40K table has around 8-10 different terrain pieces. An Infinity table has close to 50!

Now multiply that by 5 different tables that you would need to run a 10 person tournament and tell me that your average local GW store has that much terrain available...