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GW's price rises on already overpriced products, their perpetual denial of what customers know about things and so on. I have noticed a large number of people whom I know progressively move away from GW by buying from discount online stores offshore, or even moving to a different game system entirely (Infinity is becoming popular within local gaming circles were I am) and so the point is this: is GW pissing customers off so much that they will eventually die out because we refuse to do business with them?

I know that this is a worst case scenario thing but in considering their business model, they are driving customers away. I'd like to see what people think and if there are any corporate analysts who frequent this forum please comment.

Pretty much. They've been losing revenue. Investors are in it for the dividends.

They constantly get fewer physical sales year after year and cover it with increased prices. Pretty soon they will hit the tipping point where raised prices will not cover falling sales.

To be honest that time can't come soon enough.

It already isn't.

Revenue:
2008: 110.3m
2009: 125.7m
2010: 126.5m
2011: 123.1m

Revenue at constant (refers to the previous year's dollar value) (the number in () is the change in real revenue from the previous year)
2008: 110.3m
2009: 113.9m (+3.6m)
2010: 121.8m (-3.9m)
2011: 122.8m (-3.7m)

I get more value from RPGs and other minis. I don't think I play or enjoy my 40k stuff enough to warrant the stupidly overpriced costs.

Long term they will crash and burn as with shareholders it's the short term cash flow that's important to them.

If I were an eccentric millionaire I'd buy GW and then run it to break even or there abouts.

Someone was saying on another forum about trying to persuade Robin Williams (who apparently plays the game) to throw a few mil in, and buy a majority share of the company, then fire the entire upper management. (Personally I would add to that list anyone who uses the term 'hobby love' ..)

I view miniatures and their various forms as a type of art, and surely worthy of a wealthy philanthropists attentions!

They wont go out of business. They are reaching the point where the "sell less at a higher price" business model will fail. That, combined with the flood of other good games at cheaper prices will force them to go to the "sell more volume for lower price" model in order to build thier sales volume and regain customer base.

Funny thing is the joke will still be on the customer. GW will bank huge cash on things like $74 LR (for example) for a year or so. Then they will make a huge deal about reducing the price back to $66. A sales pitch like "GW, the best hobby value on the market, pay 2012 prices for 2014 products". Then people will be all "ZOMG GW price reduction!!! Im back in!"

There will be a point where GW will have to redress a threat to their business. Such as it is, they still believe the economy is bad and that they are doing good despite poor economic conditions.

Mad4Minis wrote:Funny thing is the joke will still be on the customer. GW will bank huge cash on things like $74 LR (for example) for a year or so. Then they will make a huge deal about reducing the price back to $66. A sales pitch like "GW, the best hobby value on the market, pay 2012 prices for 2014 products". Then people will be all "ZOMG GW price reduction!!! Im back in!"

The same thing oil companies due to gas prices! "Hey look, gas has dropped 20 cent!" "That's still a dollar more than last year!"

It seems to me that they have the readies in the bank to take risks like making SM battleforces £80 RRP. If it works, hooker and meth party at Kirby's place. If it doesn't, they can probably swallow the hit and put the prices back.

Not that I know anything about business beyond watching The Apprentice, but that doesn't stop Kirby et al

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Yes, prices are rising. However, there are two things that you people are not considering.

First, price increases occur in every product you buy. Sometimes you may not even notice it. What alot of companies do is to decrease the quantitiy of what you get, but keep the price the same, which is in effect a price increase. I'll give the example of cereal products here.

Second, increases in quality of the plastic kits (I will admit finecast is definately a step back). The plastic kits these days are highly customizable, and include a ton of bitz for other projects. The kits can swapped around cross range and inter-range with the fantasy line to create even more options.

I just don't understand this pre-occupation with GW prices. The product is a luxery one, and people always want more than they can have or more than they can afford. How is this GW's fault? The answer is simple: it is not. I wil also note here that GW has one of the best customer service departments in ANY business, often replacing more than the original defective product.

One more thing to address the OP: No GW is not committing slow corporate suicide. It will always have rational customers, such as myself, who knows what they can afford, and makes purchases to suit their tastes as well as their budget. . I made this argument several months ago in another thread but I'll repost it. I mean, you can get an awesome and large competitive army by spending $100/month for one year. I just don't see how people view this as expensive. There just isn't another hobby that gives you years of enjoyment of a relatively little price.

They've already blown thier video game rep (which is one of the most social networks in terms of opinion trending) by having Warhammer Online, Dawn of War 2, and now Space Marine all fail using the same tabletop marketing strategy: How to act like a monopoly while losing the controlling share of the population.

I mean a gaming company that makes an archaic RTS analog should be doing whatever it can to increase popularity, yet they cut all sponsored funding for events (Being 'Established' already was the only thing keeping GW afloat in terms of intrest), which to me is like saying, "Our company is becoming increasingly obscure, our products have dropped in quality, our prices have increased 15% per year despite this, all forays into other media have failed due to a lack of corporate response to the community (which is a telescoping timeline that would have been reached already in tabletop if GW proper had to answer to compaints on a forum), and now we arnt going to offer ANY incentive to play our game over Warma-Hordes, or Dust Warfare, or Starcraft, or D3...

Their biggest problem IMO is the troubled advertising strategy. Its ridiculous and doesn't sit well with budget minded consumers.

Otherwise, GW isn't going anywhere unless they get sick of hearing the vocal minority and sell out.

Kiwidru wrote:They've already blown thier video game rep (which is one of the most social networks in terms of opinion trending) by having Warhammer Online, Dawn of War 2, and now Space Marine all fail using the same tabletop marketing strategy: How to act like a monopoly while losing the controlling share of the population.

DoW2 and Space Marine were both successes. Space Marine actually performed better than THQ anticipated in face of their other games that crippled them. It's why Dark Millennium was transformed and not tossed all together.

Surtur wrote:

Kiwidru wrote:They've already blown thier video game rep (which is one of the most social networks in terms of opinion trending) by having Warhammer Online, Dawn of War 2, and now Space Marine all fail using the same tabletop marketing strategy: How to act like a monopoly while losing the controlling share of the population.

DoW2 and Space Marine were both successes. Space Marine actually performed better than THQ anticipated in face of their other games that crippled them. It's why Dark Millennium was transformed and not tossed all together.

Space Marine did indeed did a fair amount of success. Over 1 million sold world wide at the end of 2011.

Mad4Minis wrote:They wont go out of business. They are reaching the point where the "sell less at a higher price" business model will fail. That, combined with the flood of other good games at cheaper prices will force them to go to the "sell more volume for lower price" model in order to build thier sales volume and regain customer base.

Funny thing is the joke will still be on the customer. GW will bank huge cash on things like $74 LR (for example) for a year or so. Then they will make a huge deal about reducing the price back to $66. A sales pitch like "GW, the best hobby value on the market, pay 2012 prices for 2014 products". Then people will be all "ZOMG GW price reduction!!! Im back in!"

I feel that if this were to occur, it would happen in the next year or two. The price points are reaching to some crazy heights and while people say this every year, the market won't be able to bear it if it goes much further. We're closing in on the point where a single (non-superheavy) vehicle costs $100 USD with the Stormraven, and if things get to that point GW will have to shake up its pricing and marketing to make money again. Even if the joke's on us, a price drop would make a lot of people happy. While I can stomach the prices, I know I'd be a bit more impulsive if kits were cheaper.

GW already has reached the limit where price hikes don't lead to higher revenue but are completely eaten up by lower sales and lost customers. It is only a matter of time when revenue falls down sharply. Only the total retirement of Tom Kirby and a total exchange of management can save GW.

I think that they obviously realise that they are losing customers but are ignorant to why. They seem to just think they are loosing custmers because people are stopping wargaming not moving to another gaming system or buying second hand.

To cover this they increase prices every year. When the real reason they are losing customers is because of the raising prices. So they are ignorant to the fact that if they lowered the prices of models they would have more people buying from them as the game would be more affordable. I am expecting GW to last maybe another 10 to 15 years (if they get their act togeather 2-5 years if they don't)before other games take over. I can see PP taking over the market.

I can also see Rules of engagement, Infinity the new Dropzone Commander and Miniwargamings Dark Potential all becoming decent games and entering the market at the right time.

Some games entered at the wrong time when people still could afford GW products. PP entered at a good point and. dropzone Commander and dark Potential are entetring at incerdibly good times as people are looking for cheaper gaming alternatves to GW. Miniwargaming have a substantial fanbase and have managed to acheive alot in a short time perioid. Thei large fanbase will get alot of people into their game and they will not be working from the ground up.

They had hundreds of contributors in their fundraiser and I imagine many of these will be starting Dark Potential. And probably some that did not contribute.

So in short I feel like GW have dug a pit and it is slowly filling with water without them realising due to the arrogance and ignorance.

The Hobbit and 40k 6th edition are right around the corner. Unless GW screws up massively, I think they're actually poised to surge dramatically ahead. Does anyone else remember how GW did back when the Lord of the Rings movies were coming out? Right now, GW's debatably in a bit of a holding pattern, but they can afford to bide their time and wait until these big new games bolster their playerbase dramatically.

So anyone want to explain how GW isnt an evil corporation?

And why are we taking this quietly? It just adds to the belief that we all suffer from battered housewife syndrome.

Ravenous D wrote:So anyone want to explain how GW isnt an evil corporation?

And why are we taking this quietly? It just adds to the belief that we all suffer from battered housewife syndrome.

I'm pretty sure everybody knows GW is an evil corporation, as if there were any other kind. There's a divide between the creative types we know and love and the business and legal side of things though, so we buy cool stuff from the former regardless of the actions of the latter. The reason folks are taking it quietly is because we're too busy bitching about it on forums to actually do anything, like sending them letters (which may not be effective, but is at least more effective than worthless online petitions) or voting with our wallets and not buying new stuff. However, I feel that even if more GW customers did abstain from buying new stuff this year, The Hobbit and 40k 6th edition will make up for any potential losses. Those are going to be big, big deals.

Brother SRM wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:They wont go out of business. They are reaching the point where the "sell less at a higher price" business model will fail. That, combined with the flood of other good games at cheaper prices will force them to go to the "sell more volume for lower price" model in order to build thier sales volume and regain customer base.

Funny thing is the joke will still be on the customer. GW will bank huge cash on things like $74 LR (for example) for a year or so. Then they will make a huge deal about reducing the price back to $66. A sales pitch like "GW, the best hobby value on the market, pay 2012 prices for 2014 products". Then people will be all "ZOMG GW price reduction!!! Im back in!"

I feel that if this were to occur, it would happen in the next year or two. The price points are reaching to some crazy heights and while people say this every year, the market won't be able to bear it if it goes much further. We're closing in on the point where a single (non-superheavy) vehicle costs $100 USD with the Stormraven, and if things get to that point GW will have to shake up its pricing and marketing to make money again. Even if the joke's on us, a price drop would make a lot of people happy. While I can stomach the prices, I know I'd be a bit more impulsive if kits were cheaper.

Ill agree. Like someone pointed out in a post below yours, they will ride a nice wave with 6th ed and The Hobbit, but Id say 2-3 years of the current policies will bring them to the point of having to change. Now there are many ways they could do it, and Id say an across the board reduction would be unlikely. Perhaps a reduction of core units to attract new players into the game. Then maybe a rotation of temporary reductions of the bigger stuff like super-heavies and such.

Ironically, the price hikes have a temporary effect of boosting sales. I have been in this hobby for many years now, and every time there has been a price hike, there has been a mad rush to buy GW products before the prices increase.
Obviously, I am not a fan of this tactic, but it always seems to be the case.

Pacific wrote:Someone was saying on another forum about trying to persuade Robin Williams (who apparently plays the game) to throw a few mil in, and buy a majority share of the company, then fire the entire upper management. (Personally I would add to that list anyone who uses the term 'hobby love' ..)

There would have to actually be enough shares available to purchase to become majority shareholder and by all accounts there aren't.

Why do people insist on mentioning the hobbit? It is not LOTR and it will not bring in a load of money for GW. It will bring some but it wont save them like LOTR did.
As for 6th no one knows anything about it and some don`t even care after the price rise hits will there really be any interest in GW anymore unless your a die hard.
Currently Privateer Press, Mantic, Infinity all wipe the floor with GW no maybe not in sales but in terms of the games and in some though not all the models are superior yet GW charge a "premium" as the models they produce are cast in gold apparently.
GW unless they change and chage sharp could really find themselves behind and very soon

Well truth be told I will order a LLizardmen Battalion before prices goes up. After that I will be slowly adding to them, while I focus on FoW and Infinity.

Motograter wrote:Why do people insist on mentioning the hobbit? It is not LOTR and it will not bring in a load of money for GW. It will bring some but it wont save them like LOTR did.
As for 6th no one knows anything about it and some don`t even care after the price rise hits will there really be any interest in GW anymore unless your a die hard.
Currently Privateer Press, Mantic, Infinity all wipe the floor with GW no maybe not in sales but in terms of the games and in some though not all the models are superior yet GW charge a "premium" as the models they produce are cast in gold apparently.
GW unless they change and chage sharp could really find themselves behind and very soon

Popular films make money for a lot of people. Video games of big films are rarely good (LotR had a couple of great ones though) but they still get made, kids see The Avengers, kids want The Avengers. The Hobbit WILL make good money for GW, who will probably issue an expansion to the rules for LotR or are just anticipating a boost in LotR popularity, which means their only cost would have been to renew the license with New Line (plus they already have actor-approved (image rights) sculpts of Gandalf and anyone else that crosses over with LotR so New Line wouldn't have wanted megabucks to renew when they can just make easy money)

Also, the game itself IS fun to play, the miniatures are excellent and the fanbase is as loyal as it should be for a game system they've seen grow side by side with themselves. The other games you mention are doubtlessly good - a healthy amount of people pay for them - but it would be very hasty to suggest PP or Infinity are about to leave GW in their wake in terms of competition. For too many reasons to go into.

Anyway, it's not about competition. I wish PP all the best, I love their minis but I can't be bothered to learn the rules. The reason I want them to do really well though is simple - The WWF was at its best whilst WCW were doing everything possible to destroy it. I see GW going the way of 'WWE' and becoming PG-13 rubbish that for some reason I still can't stop paying for.

When was WCW trying to destroy the World Wildlife Foundation?

At least the books don't seem to be getting any more expensive. Can't put a price on imagination.

Btw, what about Forge World? Are they independent from GW or just a branch of it? If so, I know their models tend to be more expensive, but I haven't seen a raise in prices in their models for years...

Barksdale wrote: I mean, you can get an awesome and large competitive army by spending $100/month for one year. I just don't see how people view this as expensive. There just isn't another hobby that gives you years of enjoyment of a relatively little price.

Because I can get an awesome and large competitive army for Warmachine by spending $30/month for one year. Not the HHHobby, but the same hobby.

However, GW would have to be incredibly stupid to 'die' from this.
They make a lot of money. They are still making fairly significant profits. Less significant than before, but still a profit. They have no substantial debt, and no serious competitors on their scale: many of the other wargames companies at the moment do not have the production capacity to keep up with demand. Their business is leaner and more efficient than it was before. They have a loyal fanbase, a valuable IP portfolio. It could be another 5 years at current rates before they are in the red, another 3 before it becomes dire, and then they have multitudes of ways of getting out of there. They're not going to go belly up any time soon.