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Lanrak wrote:Hello again.
just got some official numbers .(After the LoTR bubble burst in 2005 to last year.)
Turn over.
2005=£135.08M
2006=£114.88M
2007=£109.50M
2008=£110.34M
2009=£125.70M
2010=£126.51M
2011=£123.05M

I'm willing to bet that 6th edition 40K won't bring that much income as 5th did in 2009!

J.Black wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:
What's with this "HHHobby" meme?

It seems to be an in-joke for the MODs and DCMs...... I wouldn't worry about it

I believe it is a reference to the character Simon Quinlank (King of Hobbies!) From the sketch show "Fist of fun"
http://www.containsmoderateperil.com/simon-quinlank-king-of-all-hobbies

Rayvon wrote:
They wont be going anywhere, i assure you.

The key word that you are missing is 'yet'.

Dawnbringer wrote:Using the Bank of England's inflation calculator, I get these results indexed to 2011

2005: £165.49M
2006: £136.38M
2007: £124.65M
2008: £120.79M
2009: £138.34M
2010: £133.09M
2011: £123.05M

Ouch.

In the end it doesn't matter though. Current GW managment will use the company to retire rich. The health of the company can be someone else's problem at that point

Just to point out 2004 was the highest year of turn overs for GW plc.
(The hight of the LoTR boom.actual turn over was in the £150M to £160M mark!)

And if you look at the price increses of product from then to now...
20 IG Catachans were £12 .Same models as now.
What are they selling for now.(Should be about £18 for 20 for inflation over this period.)
£18 for TEN!!!!!
Thats about double the price over inflation!

So from 2005 if GW plc had constant sales volumes , they would be turning over £331M now....flipin eck it worse than even I though it was!

And the money made in the past couple of years should include the cost-cutting practices I'd imagine too, such as fewer shops/staff etc.

Just Dave wrote:And the money made in the past couple of years should include the cost-cutting practices I'd imagine too, such as fewer shops/staff etc.

I believe this is all revenue we've been talking about so it will have no show as to profits and costs.

I can't understand why GW didn't franchise their stores out.

The onus being on the owner/manager to make the store profitable.

loki old fart wrote:I can't understand why GW didn't franchise their stores out.

The onus being on the owner/manager to make the store profitable.

Becuase they want direct control over every aspect of the store operation.

Mad4Minis wrote:Becuase they want direct control over every aspect of everything ever.

Fixed it for ya.

Mad4Minis wrote:

loki old fart wrote:I can't understand why GW didn't franchise their stores out.

The onus being on the owner/manager to make the store profitable.

Becuase they want direct control over every aspect of the store operation.

Even as a franchise they would. The franchisee would only run the store. Hiwever they would have to follow regulations and run the store how they are told to. So they must have the uniforme they are told to and sell at the prices they are told to.

SilverMK2 wrote:Many people probably would not know there was a tabletop game version of the Hobbit, since GW don't bother advertising to anyone who is not already buying their stuff... and given that no one seemed to play LOTR even a couple of years after it was released, I can't see anyone other than the very keen buying any of the Hobbit stuff.

Seems like a fairly foolish assumption on your part considering how well the LOTR miniatures sold when the films were still fresh. Most likely the same thing will happen for the Hobbit (well at least we have no reason to think differently). Should be a nice big bubble for 2-3 years and then it will suddenly drop off.

I.E.: GW needs PR. **Evil smile**

Barksdale wrote:I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Yes, prices are rising. However, there are two things that you people are not considering.

First, price increases occur in every product you buy. Sometimes you may not even notice it. What alot of companies do is to decrease the quantitiy of what you get, but keep the price the same, which is in effect a price increase. I'll give the example of cereal products here.

Sorry here, some amazzingly wordered and balanced arguments here, but this for some reason just put the thought in my head of...well minis in the cereal boxes :') ridiculous of course, but just reminded me when they used to x3 imagine opening your khorneflakes and finding a little plastic terminator

brettz123 wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Many people probably would not know there was a tabletop game version of the Hobbit, since GW don't bother advertising to anyone who is not already buying their stuff... and given that no one seemed to play LOTR even a couple of years after it was released, I can't see anyone other than the very keen buying any of the Hobbit stuff.

Seems like a fairly foolish assumption on your part considering how well the LOTR miniatures sold when the films were still fresh. Most likely the same thing will happen for the Hobbit (well at least we have no reason to think differently). Should be a nice big bubble for 2-3 years and then it will suddenly drop off.

I would be very, very surprised if the Hobbit films reach the hype and fever pitch that the LoTR films did. People forget the ridiculous amount of media coverage that those films got, even in the regular press, because they were genuinely doing something new and exciting.

I have no doubt that Peter Jackson will make a good job of the hobbit film (sorry.. films.. ), and that some people will purchase LoTR stock because of the films. But, I was working in GW at the time those original films came out, and it was absolutely mental - the stock was selling quicker than we could put it on the shelves. It was a really exciting time. I just can't imagine these films reaching anything like that level of shopper-games console at christmas-style frenzy, there just hasn't been the build-up to them.

brettz123 wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Many people probably would not know there was a tabletop game version of the Hobbit, since GW don't bother advertising to anyone who is not already buying their stuff... and given that no one seemed to play LOTR even a couple of years after it was released, I can't see anyone other than the very keen buying any of the Hobbit stuff.

Seems like a fairly foolish assumption on your part considering how well the LOTR miniatures sold when the films were still fresh. Most likely the same thing will happen for the Hobbit (well at least we have no reason to think differently). Should be a nice big bubble for 2-3 years and then it will suddenly drop off.

The problem with LOTR was that it was set-up all stupid. It was really badly planned with releases in my opinion. Plus it's not really a game of factions, so I don't play it as I like the feel of "It's my species vs yours". LOTR only had Good vs Bad. It they made so you could have Rohan vs Dwarfs then it would have been much better. GW now have a second chance to do this properly and get people not only into the game but keep them into it as well.

You can play good vs good, just declare someone to be evil for the sake of roll offs. DONE.

Sorry for the reiteration, but I just noticed the otjer rantfest was locked.

Ascalam wrote:

Doesn't help that the CEo sees the company as his personal piggybank

I would love to see it acquired by another company that cares about the customers (and then brought to heel, with all the races equal in power, equally supported and with great fluff and awesome, yet well balanced.

First, be careful making statements like this without some sort of evidence.

Second, if this happened, the perfect game would be conceived and no one would play any other game... in other words, no one will ever release a game encompassing all of this. Compromise and moderation are the secrets to sanity.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sparkywtf wrote: It will falter and hopefully someone will pick up the IP, but that will probably just lead us all to disappointment with prepainted soft plastic kits.

What needs to happen is some multimillionaire decides to buy a bunch of stock who actually likes the hobby (and not the hhhoby) and tells Kirby, Ward, and a few others to feth off.

And third, quit with this crap. If you can do a better job, why aren't you? The Kirby/Ward/anyone else rants weren't funny months ago, and like cheese, they don't get better with age...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Still, most intrigued by Ascalam's assertion that GW os collapsing because the CEOis using the company as his piggy bank. Evidence?

Armchair accountants on the internets have noticed that Kirby owns ~7% of the shares in GW. Meaning that every time the company issues a dividend, Kirby receives an amount of money exceeding his annual salary.

Never mind that it is sensible and desirable for a CEO to own a stake (even a controlling stake) in their own company, or that paying dividends is fairly standard practice for a large number of publicly traded companies.

Just some clarification.
Mr Tom Kirby is the Chairman of GW plc .(He used to be the CEO AND Chairman, untill it became illegal. )


Ascalam, is simply using a theory that fits with the financial actions of GW plc.

After the LoTR bubble burst.Mr Kirby said that they ,(corperate mangment) had grown ' fat and lazy' on the easy sucess the LoTR brought.

Obviously something had to change .After making lots of low paid workers redundant at GW plc, Kirby got a pay rise.

Rather than investing time and money into a full study of markets and demoghraphics ,(only corperate managers can enable this.)To gain better synergy with GW plc potential customer base, and grow the buisness.

GW plc corperate managment simply kept on putting up prices, over the rate of inflation, to make up for falling sales volumes, just like they did when they were 'fat and lazy.'

Some could draw the conclusion that NOT investing in GW plc future , but using the money to pay out large share bonuses.
MAY have something to do with Mr Kirby being the largest individual owner of GW plc shares,and how close he is to retireing...

Don't know if this has been mentioned but I found the interview with Rick Priestley on Beasts of War fascinating - how effectively GW was a bunch of punk game designers when TSR's UK operation folded and Tom Kirby then came into the business and brought a load of people with him.

It made me think that in the early days the 'corporate' outlook that he brought was probably essential in turning GW into the success that it was (otherwise it may just have fizzled out as too many undisciplined creative types may not have been able to make the company work cohesively). However, the pendulum has been slowly swinging too far the other way and GW has now lost the spark of madness that made it great in the first place.

Rick Priestley himself bemoaned the way that he (and others) concieved 40k as being a universe so big that anything you could imagine would find a home there, but the current rules and background for 40k have restricted this to almost an 'our way or the highway' approach - something which seems to have given rise to the incessant retconning as a desperate attempt to have something 'new' to write with each new book.

For myself I think GW has just got bloated. Too many games, too many publications, too many factions, too many stores.

There are a lot of solutions to the problems they have (indeed some are fairly obvious) but it seems that GW is unwilling or unable to make a course correction. I think its fair to say that the age and financial plans of senior board members is a part of this, but mainly it is down to the fact that the majority shareholders are simply funds whose managers have no interest in or knowledge of the company beyond its bottom line. They are interested in short-medium term profits and share dividends, not long term sustainable growth (and certainly not if such growth would have a short-term financial impact).

Just a few thoughts (and by the way before someone comes along with the 'so if you could do so much better why aren't you running it then' line I'd be happy to. Anyone going to give me the job? )

DarthOvious wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Many people probably would not know there was a tabletop game version of the Hobbit, since GW don't bother advertising to anyone who is not already buying their stuff... and given that no one seemed to play LOTR even a couple of years after it was released, I can't see anyone other than the very keen buying any of the Hobbit stuff.

Seems like a fairly foolish assumption on your part considering how well the LOTR miniatures sold when the films were still fresh. Most likely the same thing will happen for the Hobbit (well at least we have no reason to think differently). Should be a nice big bubble for 2-3 years and then it will suddenly drop off.

The problem with LOTR was that it was set-up all stupid. It was really badly planned with releases in my opinion. Plus it's not really a game of factions, so I don't play it as I like the feel of "It's my species vs yours". LOTR only had Good vs Bad. It they made so you could have Rohan vs Dwarfs then it would have been much better. GW now have a second chance to do this properly and get people not only into the game but keep them into it as well.

You can certainly play good vs good or bad vs bad with LOTR not sure why you think you can't. I don't think LOTR will ever be a giant seller after the movies fade from the main stream consciousness. It has been hashed over multiple times in the past but many people buy what they need from the movies and then there isn't much interest in getting miniatures that deviate from what is considered canonical. But that is fine as long as you treat the bubble like a bubble. It brings in a large amount of extra money for a short period of time which can be used for other things and that is about it.

It will hopefully revitalize GW and get them through this rough patch and back to where they need to be.

I think they might get a bit of a spike when the Hobbit is released, but that will, unfortunately, mask the slow decline as the popularity of the Hobbit fades. They've still got quite a bit of time left, for sure, we'll certainly see 9th WHFB and 7th 40K, but after that, I'm not so sure. The company will still exist, thanks to their lucrative licensing, but they might not be producing miniatures and rules for miniatures in a decade, barring some huge change somewhere along the line.

Kiwidru wrote:They've already blown thier video game rep (which is one of the most social networks in terms of opinion trending) by having Warhammer Online, Dawn of War 2, and now Space Marine all fail using the same tabletop marketing strategy: How to act like a monopoly while losing the controlling share of the population.

I mean a gaming company that makes an archaic RTS analog should be doing whatever it can to increase popularity, yet they cut all sponsored funding for events (Being 'Established' already was the only thing keeping GW afloat in terms of intrest), which to me is like saying, "Our company is becoming increasingly obscure, our products have dropped in quality, our prices have increased 15% per year despite this, all forays into other media have failed due to a lack of corporate response to the community (which is a telescoping timeline that would have been reached already in tabletop if GW proper had to answer to compaints on a forum), and now we arnt going to offer ANY incentive to play our game over Warma-Hordes, or Dust Warfare, or Starcraft, or D3...

Dawn of War 2 isn't a failure...it has actually done really well, but commercially and critically.

Warhammer Online and Space Marine also did not do horribly...though not as critically acclaimed, they certainly still have a following and were not at all panned by critics. (though neither game got quite the positive reception of the Dawn of War series has, and deservedly so)

I just disagree with your stance on GW's videogames...the last 5 years has actually produced a lot of quality content.

RatBot wrote:I think they might get a bit of a spike when the Hobbit is released, but that will, unfortunately, mask the slow decline as the popularity of the Hobbit fades.

It will be a good smokescreen for the next few financial reports. Things will spike this year, next year and a bit of 2014 thanks to The Hobbit (and we'll get 2 price increases in that time, despite the extra income the movies will generate). Then for another 2-3 years they'll blame the Hobbit 'bubble' bursting, and that will be the way they brush their declining sales under the rug. After that we'll get the more realistic take, and that's when 9th/7th will appear.

BrotherVord wrote:
I just disagree with your stance on GW's videogames...the last 5 years has actually produced a lot of quality content.

GW has had varying success with games over the years with some good but niche games like Final Liberation and Chaos Gate but also some horrors like Rites of War. Dawn of War is what really put GW on the computer gaming map. Dow 2 is still a good game, Space Marine did ok from a sales point of view (and was an adequate game) and WAR suffered from being a WoW clone.
If GW was more selective over the types of games that they allow ot be licensed then they could make a lot of money; for instance Warhammer:Total War would almost certainly by highly successful.

I don't know how the Hobbit will play out for GW, it will almost certainly increase LotR sales but almost certainly not to LotR levels. Once the last Hobbit film has been released then GW will be left entirely on its own so in an ideal world if the Hobbit does bring in a significant sales increase it would be an ideal time to reduce prices.

WAR didn't suffer from being a WoW clone, it suffered from severe suck. The graphics could be compared to Half Life 1, the animation was terrible and the game lagged.

Wow clones are usually "severe suck" due to their very nature. For an MMO the graphics and visuals weren't bad, it was the already decade old game play that killed it. Rather ironically DAoC (mythics orignial MMO) actually has better PvP despite being release din 2002.

If they released Total War: Warhammer I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Mount and Blade: Warhammer.