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"Years"? It was released during the rules development for 6th. 6th didnt just drop from nowhere.

Perhaps I have missed something but there is no 3D shooting in 40k. Its all done on a 2D plane.

Technically the assualt cannon/plasma cannon/lascannon turret is a turret so is governed by the arcs for shooting as outline in the BRB so it has a 360 degree arc. Now we've established that, it needs to draw los but has it been established what blocks los in the rules? I'm on my lunch hour at work so don't have my rulebook but this topic interests me.

WhoopieMonster wrote:Perhaps I have missed something but there is no 3D shooting in 40k. Its all done on a 2D plane.

Technically the assualt cannon/plasma cannon/lascannon turret is a turret so is governed by the arcs for shooting as outline in the BRB so it has a 360 degree arc. Now we've established that, it needs to draw los but has it been established what blocks los in the rules? I'm on my lunch hour at work so don't have my rulebook but this topic interests me.

Shooting isn't done in 2D. There are rules for a guns vertical arc in the rule book.

Isn't the main cannon on the thunderhawk an ordinance weapon and thus doesn't need LOS? I don't have the rules handy but I think it is. I also think the Storm eagles missile racks are ordinance large blast as well.

WhoopieMonster wrote:Perhaps I have missed something but there is no 3D shooting in 40k. Its all done on a 2D plane.

So not right. There are horizontal arcs to all vehicle weapons...

Blind spots are reality... A storm raven can shoot the ground, just not stuff basically under it. It is not designed to shoot stuff under it. Lern2Maneuver.

nkelsch wrote:

WhoopieMonster wrote:Perhaps I have missed something but there is no 3D shooting in 40k. Its all done on a 2D plane.

So not right. There are horizontal arcs to all vehicle weapons...

Blind spots are reality... A storm raven can shoot the ground, just not stuff basically under it. It is not designed to shoot stuff under it. Lern2Maneuver.

I was unaware that a 12" blind spot in all directions counted as stuff under it.

Hell, with it tilted down like I've modeled it, the blind spot STILL EXISTS, its just like 3"-4", which I agree, it probably shouldn't be able to hit.

nkelsch wrote:

WhoopieMonster wrote:Perhaps I have missed something but there is no 3D shooting in 40k. Its all done on a 2D plane.

So not right. There are horizontal arcs to all vehicle weapons...

Blind spots are reality... A storm raven can shoot the ground, just not stuff basically under it. It is not designed to shoot stuff under it. Lern2Maneuver.

The guy above you already pointed that out in a less troll like manner. I didn't say blind spots didn't exsist nor did I allued to having horrible problems with my Stormraven and placing it appropriately on the battlefield. But you didn't answer my second question. Which is what can block line of sight? Several people have stated a vehicle cannot shoot through its own hull. As daft as my question appears, does the BRB state that. The gun arcs generally prevent you from doing so, but obviously they failed to consider several units when coming up with them.

WhoopieMonster wrote: The gun arcs generally prevent you from doing so, but obviously they failed to consider several units when coming up with them.

Yes... you cannot shoot through your own hull and there is a full page of about 6 color diagrams showing this fact. They show how many weapons stop being able to see LOS when they reach the edge of the hull.

WhoopieMonster wrote: Now we've established that, it needs to draw los but has it been established what blocks los in the rules?

Yes, it's an established fact in the rules that you cannot draw LoS through your own hull.

rigeld2 wrote:

WhoopieMonster wrote: Now we've established that, it needs to draw los but has it been established what blocks los in the rules?

Yes, it's an established fact in the rules that you cannot draw LoS through your own hull.

Established by what rule.

nkelsch, stop posting idiotic remarks and actually quote me a page that says I cannot shot through my own hull.

Those diagrams show your firing arc based on the type of weapon mount it is. The top weapon mount on the Stormraven is a turret, ergo it has a 360 degree weapon arc. So again please point out where it says I cannot shoot through my own hull.

Page 72, fairly easy to find in the rulebook.

So, again: it is tough that the SR top mounted gun cannot shoot directly in front at models on the ground.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page 72, fairly easy to find in the rulebook.

So, again: it is tough that the SR top mounted gun cannot shoot directly in front at models on the ground.

And the diagrams show that sponsons have MORE than 180 degree range, but are limited by where the hull actually stops the gun being able to see. You have the range of motion based upon how the mount can move and what it can see. The hull blocks this range of motion and range of vision.

This rule did not change since 5th edition. It is the same in 6th edition.

Exactly. Nothing has changed since 5th and 6th in this regards.

The storm chicken can now shoot flyers, and Hurricane Bolters are now pretty good additional weapons, especially on GK vehicles.

Its not a sponson, its a turret.

The arc for turrets clearly depics that the Tank can happily shoot with its turret at models that are stood up close to its rear tracks without issue. The only no-fire zone for the turret weapon is clearly based on the length of its barrel, as you need to be able to draw line of sight (a straight line) to the unit you are shooting. So what blocks line of sight:

According to PG 8, the only thing exempt from blocking line of sight is its own unit. "Firing models can always draw line of sight through members of their own unit just as if they were not there". So a tank can shoot through its own hull, as it is a unit consisting of one model.

So unless you can find something that states I cannot shoot through my hull, I'm following the rules as depicted in the diagrams and as written on the pages.

Edit: A point to further back up my arguement, just take a look at pintle-mounted weapons. It has line of sight no matter what position the enemy models are in. I could position my troops behind the rear hatch of the rhino and according to that diagram it can still see me, thus it can still shoot me.

Look at the picture for the turret mounted weapon again.

The gun can fire 360 degrees, but that unshaded area near the tank is a blind spot. They can't shoot in that area due to inability to hit it with the turret weapon.

that wouldn't exist if you could depress the gun through your own hull to fire through the side of the tank

By the logic that any gun capable of 360'' swivel being able to shoot through the hull, a LR lascannon sponson should be able to also.. Thay can't, as you can't draw LOS through your own hull, as shown in the diagrams.

I see your point but that doesn't change the fact the un-shaded area its still the exact length of the gun barrel.

I will also repeat my point about pintle-mounted weapons as it was an edit.

A point to further back up my arguement, just take a look at pintle-mounted weapons. It has line of sight no matter what position the enemy models are in. I could position my troops behind the rear hatch of the rhino and according to that diagram it can still see me, thus it can still shoot me.

Let me make one thing clear, I do not and will not ever attempt to fire my tanks/flyers weapons through their hull. Its not in the spirit of the game. I'm just playing devils advocate here as I think there is room for abuse currently and I feel it needs more clarity is required.

Whoopie - so despite the rules stating otherwise, you still think you can shoot through your own hull?

Fine, houserule if you want. That isnt the rules.

The Predator Sponson can physically rotate through more than 180 degrees, but it has significantly less than that in actuality.

The arc for a sponson is clearly defined as is the arc for a turret. The two are different. It clearly states where the arc for a sponson starts and ends, which prevents you from shooting through your own hull.

It does not however do that for turret-mounted or pintle-mounted weapons.

Nos, where does it actually state "Vehicles cannot shoot through any part of their own model." or words to that effect?

sudojoe wrote:So how do you guys play missles and rockets? air only? I'm kind of wondering about the Thunderhawk model as well then.




Totally Fethed cannon? You'll never get to shoot at anything other than another flier with a blast template?

Generally you're shooting that cannon at Super Heavies accross the table and shooting everything else and other stuff(super heavies can split fire)

Considering that vehicles can shoot through members of their own squadron, it would be odd if they couldn't also shoot through themselves.

Surely if you shoot through your own hull you should immediately roll on the Vehicle Damage table?

Those shots you're happily blasting through your own vehicle have to be penetrating the armour after all, otherwise they wouldn't be able to carry on to hit the unit you're shooting them at.

"blocked by terrain or models"

Whoopie - reread page 72. Note "Arc of Sight". This is NOT the same thing as "Line of Sight"

The ONLY diagram which talks about Line of Sight is the classic predator diagram, which clearly shows the hull blocks LOS.

You can disagree if you want, but given you are required to draw LOS along the barrel, when you look and find you cannot see the enemy model you are stuffed.

The reasoning for which is that the rest of the squad moves out of the lascannon's way (or whatever) to allow for his shot.

Hull plates don't

This was specifically ruled against in previous editions for what little that's worth. Most players will realise that trying to shoot your left-hand sponson through the crew compartment at an enemt they can't see on the right of the tank is not a viable option, even if they don't put it in 4pt bold type and underline it


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Testify wrote:Considering that vehicles can shoot through members of their own squadron, it would be odd if they couldn't also shoot through themselves.

Good points well presented nosferatu1001. Thanks for being patient. As I stated I never intended to make use of my perceptions of the rule, it just looked to me like there was a potential loop hole to use.

I'm now on your side of the fence

Ascalam, I never denied its was idiotic notion, I just over looked the titling on the diagrams and mistook Arc of Sight to grant Line of Sight, leading to my misinterpretation of the rules.

No, as the Line of Sight diagram clearly shows

Sponsons can move more than 180 degrees. When attached to the model they cannot fire their full amount

You are correct, I was in the process of editing my previous post to reflect that when you obviously made your post.

A vehicle "shoots like any other unit", except you draw LOS from gun barrels rather than a model's eye view. In the rules for LOS, does it say that a unit is considered to have LOS through itself?

It doesn't say they don't but as stated by nos, There is a diagram titled "Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight" (PG 72) which explains how los works with vehicles.

WhoopieMonster wrote:It doesn't say they don't but as stated by nos, There is a diagram titled "Vehicle Weapons and Line of Sight" (PG 72) which explains how los works with vehicles.

It explains how you draw line of sight from the weapons, nothing about not being able to shoot through your own hull.
It actually explicitly states what does block line of sight - "terrain or models". The vehicle's hull is neither of these.

Pretty sure the shooting rules explicitly allow you to shoot through your own unit as though it wasn't there.

If you could shoot through your own hull do you not think that left sponson would be able to draw los?