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Playing a game today, was told my stormraven couldn't fire its assault cannon at a target right in front of it, because the assault cannon can't depress far enough to fire the gun.

Of course, if I had modeled stupid stormraven flying upside down, It seemed reasonable to me to assume that as a stormraven is flying it could bank/swerve to position to fire the guns... but I'm not sure what the rules are on this.



Do stormraven dorsal turret guns have an 18-20" "dead zone" around them that they cannot hit?

(kinda meant to post this to YMDC... sorry)

lol, there is no 3d in shooting, just an arc, you got boned. Think of flying things do they always have the same pitch and yaw or are they fluid?

what seems stupidest about this is that if I have an 18" dead zone on assault cannons, the damn gun only has a range of 24"... do I have a 6" sweet spot I need to hit or else the gun is useless? BAH.

There IS a rule saying the gun can depress 45" when elevation is an issue, under the vehicle firing arcs section of the rules. Not sure if that applies to fliers though.

there is no up down in terms of shooting. Just check the standard fire arc and you can shoot.

Yeah, THe pilot would just point down farther.

You need to be able to draw a line from the gun barrel to your target, with a depression/elevation of 45 degrees.

If you can't, without your hull getting in the way of the shot, you can't shoot the target. LOS is drawn from the gun, along the barrel.

If, for example, a warbuggy was directly underneath your SR, and you couldn't draw a line along the gun and still see it, you wouldn't have LOS, and so couldn't shoot it.

The Dorsal gun is more intended for flyer on flyer action, i think, as it will always be able to draw a bead.

PG 72 rulebook - Vehicles and line of sight

Ascalam wrote:You need to be able to draw a line from the gun barrel to your target, with a depression/elevation of 45 degrees.

If you can't, without your hull getting in the way of the shot, you can't shoot the target. LOS is drawn from the gun, along the barrel.

If, for example, a warbuggy was directly underneath your SR, and you couldn't draw a line along the gun and still see it, you wouldn't have LOS, and so couldn't shoot it.

The Dorsal gun is more intended for flyer on flyer action, i think, as it will always be able to draw a bead.

PG 72 rulebook - Vehicles and line of sight

Adjust flying base to angle the Storm raven 45 degrees toward the ground.
Done.

-Matt

It's a pain, but yes the Stormraven turret has a 45 degree angle for up and down, there is no exception for flyers.

Oh and if your flying base is 'broken' I have a spare one you can use

Well then. Is there any reason I have to use the GW flying base with my stormraven? Can I mount it on a lower base, so that its guns can actually see things they are supposed to shoot?

Horst wrote:Well then. Is there any reason I have to use the GW flying base with my stormraven? Can I mount it on a lower base, so that its guns can actually see things they are supposed to shoot?

Of course not. You must use the base the model came with.

I don't think he has to use the flying stand though. Plenty of people with smaller flying bases convert them into trees and the like, so he could feasibly lower the Stormraven a little. There are no rules as far as I know governing the use of flying stands.

1- is the stem part of the base?
2-is installing a swivel allowed?
3- is assembling the model counter to the instructions legal?
3a-if not, what are conversions?

Personally, I think that anyone fishing for that sort of way out is pretty lame, and deserves stupid fixes to a stupid problem.

tgf wrote:there is no up down in terms of shooting. Just check the standard fire arc and you can shoot.

100% incorrect, as has been pointed out. You get 45 degrees of vertical traverse

Your opponent sounds like a dick. The fact that this has never come up before is telling.

Mount your gun under the nose. Like any sensible engineer would do for a ground-attack aircraft.

Space marines =/= common sense.

I would have to agree with the +-45degree vertical transverse for vehicles. It doesn't make sense to have a Leman Russ being able to shoot in a nearly upwards fashion, nor for a Stormraven to shoot at something directly below it.

Yeah you got hosed. Its stuff like this that causes MfA . Model your storm raven pointing down at an angle, and it will stop this BS from happening.

The_Solitaire wrote:Space marines =/= common sense.

I would have to agree with the +-45degree vertical transverse for vehicles. It doesn't make sense to have a Leman Russ being able to shoot in a nearly upwards fashion, nor for a Stormraven to shoot at something directly below it.

I agree. However, the problem isn't shooting things directly below it. It can't hit things even 12" in front of it.

With that 45 degree transverse, it can't hit anything less than 18" away from it or so... with a gun that has a max range of 24".

spiralingcadaver wrote:1- is the stem part of the base?
2-is installing a swivel allowed?
3- is assembling the model counter to the instructions legal?
3a-if not, what are conversions?

Personally, I think that anyone fishing for that sort of way out is pretty lame, and deserves stupid fixes to a stupid problem.

1. Yes.
2. If you modify the stem, it shouldn't impact gameplay, Being able to adjust the angle of the model isn't allowed in rules, especially when we have 45degree rules for shooting.
3. Yes.
3a. Conversions are technically illegal, but when they don't impact gameplay, people don't complain. If you make a conversion to explicitly gain an advantage in gameplay it is modeling for advantage and people are not cool with that usually.

Horst wrote:

The_Solitaire wrote:Space marines =/= common sense.

I would have to agree with the +-45degree vertical transverse for vehicles. It doesn't make sense to have a Leman Russ being able to shoot in a nearly upwards fashion, nor for a Stormraven to shoot at something directly below it.

I agree. However, the problem isn't shooting things directly below it. It can't hit things even 12" in front of it.

With that 45 degree transverse, it can't hit anything less than 18" away from it or so... with a gun that has a max range of 24".

You could always not use the vehicle in your army...

That's the way GW designed the rules and the way GW designed the unit, the fact that it can't be used exactly how you expect it to work is hardly grounds for ignoring these designs.

All Flyers suffer from this issue, and all Flyers get plenty of advantages to offset it.

Yes, it has a 45 degee arc downward. Most people are pretty flexible about that, though, IME. If it's close they'll usually give it to you.

nkelsch wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:1- is the stem part of the base?
2-is installing a swivel allowed?
3- is assembling the model counter to the instructions legal?
3a-if not, what are conversions?

Personally, I think that anyone fishing for that sort of way out is pretty lame, and deserves stupid fixes to a stupid problem.

1. Yes.
2. If you modify the stem, it shouldn't impact gameplay, Being able to adjust the angle of the model isn't allowed in rules, especially when we have 45degree rules for shooting.
3. Yes.
3a. Conversions are technically illegal, but when they don't impact gameplay, people don't complain. If you make a conversion to explicitly gain an advantage in gameplay it is modeling for advantage and people are not cool with that usually.

Yes.

Sigvatr wrote:

Horst wrote:Well then. Is there any reason I have to use the GW flying base with my stormraven? Can I mount it on a lower base, so that its guns can actually see things they are supposed to shoot?

Of course not. You must use the base the model came with.

No you don't:

"The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the bases that they are supplied with.... You should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish" - Pg.3

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:No you don't:

"The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the bases that they are supplied with.... You should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish" - Pg.3

Iranna.

Oh man, that's a really classy misleading abbreviation of the rule...

"The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometime, a player may have models in his collection on unusually modelled bases. Some models aren't supplied with a base at all. In these cases (which are, in all fairness, relatively few and far between), you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as a guidance."

That's hardly telling you to go nuts with changing bases whenever you want.

So you're genuinely suggesting that the Storm Raven's AC can't shoot at anything 18" or less?

Drunkspleen wrote:

Oh man, that's a really classy misleading abbreviation of the rule...

"The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometime, a player may have models in his collection on unusually modelled bases. Some models aren't supplied with a base at all. In these cases (which are, in all fairness, relatively few and far between), you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as a guidance."

That's hardly telling you to go nuts with changing bases whenever you want.

The point still stands, Horst can mount his SRaven on a more appropriate base is he feels so necessary.

Iranna.

If the hull gets in the way, then you cannot shoot your target. It sucks for people with SR, but you now have an assault cannon with skyfire, so it balances out.

-cgmckenzie

Testify wrote:So you're genuinely suggesting that the Storm Raven's AC can't shoot at anything 18" or less?

Yep, and a Land Raiders left sponson can't shoot at anything too close on the right side of it either, why is it suddenly unfair when it's a vertical issue rather than a horizontal one?

Iranna wrote:The point still stands, Horst can mount his SRaven on a more appropriate base is he feels so necessary.

Iranna.

Using models of a similar type (such as flyers, all of which use the large oval base and a large flying stem) as guidance, yep sure, in which case you may as well just use the base it came with, because all you are allowed to do is scratchbuild a new version of it.

Iranna wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:

Oh man, that's a really classy misleading abbreviation of the rule...

"The rules in this book assume that models are mounted on the base they are supplied with. Sometime, a player may have models in his collection on unusually modelled bases. Some models aren't supplied with a base at all. In these cases (which are, in all fairness, relatively few and far between), you should always feel free to mount the model on a base of appropriate size if you wish, using models of a similar type as a guidance."

That's hardly telling you to go nuts with changing bases whenever you want.

The point still stands, Horst can mount his SRaven on a more appropriate base is he feels so necessary.

Iranna.

No it doesn't. You may only do so for unique or old models which have no base. And then they say use the base of the most comparable model... which is going to be a flying base.

Your previous selective quote shows wilful misunderstanding.

Modeling so stormravens can change their axis mid-game is not allowed in the rules and is modeling for advantage.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Testify wrote:So you're genuinely suggesting that the Storm Raven's AC can't shoot at anything 18" or less?

Yep, and a Land Raiders left sponson can't shoot at anything too close on the right side of it either, why is it suddenly unfair when it's a vertical issue rather than a horizontal one?

Its unfair in this case because the storm raven only has a tiny window where it can actually shoot its gun. The land raider, on the other hand, can fire at everything within a 180 degree arc of its gun. see the difference?

I think your opponent was a dick. I would understand if the Stormraven was hovering right on top of him, but not anyway else.
Our FLGS uses a rule which states that flyers can shoot as long as the edge of their base is further than 3'' from the unit it is firing at.