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Note: A roll of 1 doesn't take away the repair function. It just costs 1HP.

with slowly dies due to MSS or the 6 str5 ap3 shots a turn

Correct me if im wrong, but don't lords that come back from EL roles immediately pile back in to ongoing combat? Meaning there would be no recurring SoL shots outside of overwatch from the initial charge. Also, assuming the squad gets wiped out by a SA(soooooo very likely) and the lord can come back anywhere within 3 inches of the EL marker, a enemy unit gets to consolidate move after the unit is "gone", what's to say he cant just move his guys into a circle around the marker? If the lord cant be placed, hes gone for good, and that's another count for the "invincible" squad made of clay taking up 1/3 of the army.


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Note: A roll of 1 doesn't take away the repair function. It just costs 1HP.

True, but the point I was making, is that one roll of a one completely shatters the entire strategy as I've stated multiple times, realistically 1/3 of the armies points or MORE. And only to make a lackluster tar pitting unit that can hold only one obj? Not worth it, Scarabs do the tar pitting job better, they can also double duty in weakening or straight up killing vehicles if necessary, more wounds to go around, and can take away armor saves from multiwound models with termie level armor, making them easy pickings for even warriors.

Gravmyr wrote:
I couldn't find a place where it states that the lord and/or cryptek are removed from the RC but you have to consider what happens if you don't.

1. Tying one unit up in CC also ties the other if they are considered part of both. If you have multiple units broken up off a RC then you have more then two units tied up by CC. Even if you don't consider them taking part in the combat the Lord/Cryptek still can't move as a unit involved in CC can't move.
2. The removed and attached Lord/Cryptek is eligible/required to take wounds from shots fired or CC directed at either the warrior unit or RC.
3. If the Character is part of both units then he can target a unit that the RC fires at or that the Warriors fire at.
4. Wargear of the Cryptek that affect his unit like the Chronometron or Lightning Field would then apply to both units.

For these reasons alone I would say they are part of the warrior unit and no longer part of the RC. As written I have to agree you can bring back the Characters via the Ghost Ark.

Another thing to add to this, if a warrior unit with an attached RC member are two, different units, then wouldn't assaulting them automatically count as a multi-assault, which would mean that no unit could ever get the +1 charge bonus?

Punisher wrote:

The problem is that with 2 overlords you can have 2 lords with res.orbs in a unit of warriors, now when this unit dies with one of the 2 lords coming back on a 4+ odds are(75%) that at least 1 stands back up and then the ark just puts the other one back in. So now you have this squad that is for all intents and purposes is immortal until the ghost ark dies, at AV13 and 4HP the ark is pretty durable and if your abusing this you are probably taking more than 1 ark. And to top it all off the squad scores, plus as an added benefit if you have MSS on both of them they can effectively go toe to toe with any CC unit in the game(except maybe very large boy and nid squads, since they can effectively cover both tokens) since all they need to do is charge in MSS something, die, get revived, repeat.

So 25% of the time, they both stay dead. Followed by 16% of the time, nobody gets back up and the Ark loses a hull point. So now we are down to 62.5% chance of this trick working.
And please, charge me. If I drop you on your turn, then I can use my tun to park all over those markers, if you can't get up within 3", you can't get up at all.
You're looking at ~400 points + 2 over-lords to try this.
Finally, saying an Ark is AV13 is a little misleading. Once lucky hit and it's down to 11. They are tough to kill, but not that tough.
-Matt

Remember, EL requires 3" of the token. RP only requires coherency with the unit and a member that has not itself returned via RP this round.

overlordweasel wrote:

if you put in someone like zhandrek, your talking 185 points for him alone with no options to wargear, hes almost double the cost of one overlord. Again, I listed bare min in my post, the special characters are "upgrades" per say and are going to hike the price tag even higher. As for the Nemessor, typically if your going to run a list with the named guys, you build the list to amplify and focus on their specific SRs that they come with; that being said, he doesn't synergize well with the ghost ark tactic. Only thing he brings to the table for them is adaptive tactics for sub-par buffs other than maybe night vision or stealth in a game with NF rules. Better to give a unit of, say, wraiths FC.

My point about special characters was just that they could be doing something else for your army and not have to be linked to this unit. Used Zhandrek as an example because he has been proven to be effective for many units in many different lists, again that was just an example.

That is very highly situational and dependent on so many factors it would only change per game. For one thing, your assuming the Lord is going to make EVERY EL role. Even with the orb, its only a 50% chance hes coming back up. Two, why would you only place 5 warriors in the unit? If your going the MSU route, you might as well put 9 warriors and the lord in the ark itself and just cruise as itd be safer for the unit and you'd loose no firepower as its open topped, heck it'd be even better as you draw distance based on the hull, which depending on the facing, can add a couple inches of range to the warrior bases original arc. Don't get me wrong, if that's your playstyle, go for it, I see no reason why it wouldn't work well and be a cheaper alternative. However, that many points being spent to hold only one obj in a match? gratz, your opponent cant take one obj you hold , +1 for you, but now the rest of your army suffers being undermanned and potentially out gunned to hold the others as your opponent can almost ignore the "invincible" squad taking up 1/3 of your armies cost, if not more.

The point is you have 2 lords in the unit giving you a 75% chance of one of them getting up, I know I mentioned that in my post. As for why only 5? Because they literally don't matter for the unit, your better off with them all dead in fact because your toughness then goes to 5. Again with the objective holding, its just an example, you could also charge it up the field if you had multiple ghost arks and were worried about a loss in firepower, it depends on what the rest of your army looks like in how you would use it, my point is just that it's the most difficult unit to kill in the game until you kill all the ghost arks your opponent has. As for the loss in fire power being game breaking for you? Not quite sure what you mean, I usually field ghost arks and don't suffer from a tremendous loss in firepower because I took them, I also field warriors and don't suffer a tremendous loss in firepower. So the crippling loss in firepower you speak of must come from the 160pts invested in the Lords??? 160pts shouldn't make or break your list in regards to not having enough firepower, your necrons there is always lots of firepower.

okay, so your point is, the unit your spending 1/3 of your army on is a good tar-pitting unit, which will eventually loose to anything CC orientated. 200 points base for a 10 man of GK space marines(assuming no upgrades at all) would laugh in your face as you loose your unit over and over and over again until that lord fails his EL role (once again, only 50%) and if they get swept and the unit is wiped out, you loose all RP counters, then you'll be limited to only what the ark can revive and even that can fail on you on a roll of a 1 causing a glancing hit and taking away the repair function. Heck if the ooponent is smart, he can even get a hammer wielding GK, multi-charge the unit and the ark at the same and wipe out both the ark AND the unit all at once. so 200+ points just completely wiped out 1/3 or more of your army in one combat phase and all you did was MAYBE cause D3 instant death roles assuming they didn't use hammerhand and used their one warp charge. How long do you think a 5 man of warriors would deal with even worse, purifiers or a termie squad even from ANY SM codex? My point being, the ghost ark backed unit is not some "invicible squad that never dies, muahahahha" it can be wiped out in one turn by something half its point cost at least. THAT sounds like a waste of points to me.

Ok first it's 75% that one of the 2 lords come back, and that's a pretty damn good chance. Second the RP counters don't really matter the warriors are worthless to the squad. Third if you roll a 1 you still get to revive units with the ghost ark you just happen to take a HP in damage in return. In CC your opponents best unit only has a 25% chance at best to inflict any damage on it, because on your turn 75% of the time both lords are back and functioning at full capacity. So I don't know 75% of the time all the damage done to them being ignored seems pretty bloody good and hard for any other unit to top, plus in CC with 2 MSS odds are in your favour that at least 1 of your opponents models will be striking back at themselves. But your right the squad isn't invincible it can die to a 25% chance, but it looks pretty good and OP when 75% of the time nothing happened to it.


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overlordweasel wrote:

Correct me if im wrong, but don't lords that come back from EL roles immediately pile back in to ongoing combat? Meaning there would be no recurring SoL shots outside of overwatch from the initial charge. Also, assuming the squad gets wiped out by a SA(soooooo very likely) and the lord can come back anywhere within 3 inches of the EL marker, a enemy unit gets to consolidate move after the unit is "gone", what's to say he cant just move his guys into a circle around the marker? If the lord cant be placed, hes gone for good, and that's another count for the "invincible" squad made of clay taking up 1/3 of the army.

Well if the lords go down it is very unlikely that the warriors survived the combat and are at a minimum swept so there is no combat to re-engage in. With consolidation true the unit can be wiped but with 2 lords and 2 separate EL markers that's a big foot print to cover, especially since you only need to be able to place 1 within 3" of one of them. If you have the lords not standing next to each other then pretty much only a mob of units can cover the ground required.

True, but the point I was making, is that one roll of a one completely shatters the entire strategy as I've stated multiple times, realistically 1/3 of the armies points or MORE. And only to make a lackluster tar pitting unit that can hold only one obj? Not worth it, Scarabs do the tar pitting job better, they can also double duty in weakening or straight up killing vehicles if necessary, more wounds to go around, and can take away armor saves from multiwound models with termie level armor, making them easy pickings for even warriors.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Yes, this is another case of RAI gone wrong. Context says that Warriors are returned to the unit, however the rule just says models. So technically by RAW it can be anything attached to the unit. Even by that wording you could add d3 Lords to the unit.

But you can't add D3 lords. You could replace lost lords, but you can't add more.
Why? Because lords require each to come from a different court, and each court must be unlocked by an overlord.
You can argue the barg allows D3 lords, but those lords cannot be attached unless they each have an overlord to unlock them.

-Matt

LOL, this started out as a humorous way to show how badly the rule was worded, but let's play with it a minute. Can you show a rule that states you cannot add D3 Lords? The Royal Court section doesnt have it.

Fragile wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Yes, this is another case of RAI gone wrong. Context says that Warriors are returned to the unit, however the rule just says models. So technically by RAW it can be anything attached to the unit. Even by that wording you could add d3 Lords to the unit.

But you can't add D3 lords. You could replace lost lords, but you can't add more.
Why? Because lords require each to come from a different court, and each court must be unlocked by an overlord.
You can argue the barg allows D3 lords, but those lords cannot be attached unless they each have an overlord to unlock them.

-Matt

LOL, this started out as a humorous way to show how badly the rule was worded, but let's play with it a minute. Can you show a rule that states you cannot add D3 Lords? The Royal Court section doesnt have it.

lol, yep if your going to go ridiculous may as well go extremely ridiculous. The only limitation that the ghost ark rule gives is you can't go over the units starting size, starting size is a number so lets say it was a 5 man squad with 1 lord, then the starting size of the unit is 6 models. No where does it say that the composition of the models must stay the same, just that the models can't exceed the number that they started at which in this example was 6. I personally don't think you should be able to bring the lord back at all but if you can, then I am not really seeing why you can't bring a in a whole 6 of them in the same unit. Since the rule makes no distinction of model, if you believe you can bring back a lord/cryptek then theres no reason the whole squad can't become them using this exploit in the rules/reasoning, woot 20 man lord squads.........................................................................

20-man Lord squad? Is that Necron Lords or Chaos Lords?

Ok first it's 75% that one of the 2 lords come back, and that's a pretty damn good chance.

how is it a 75% chance? 3 out of 6 possible results pass and/or fail, meaning its 3/6th of a chance, or 1/2 ergo 50% on the roll. That's just simple math.

With consolidation true the unit can be wiped but with 2 lords and 2 separate EL markers that's a big foot print to cover, especially since you only need to be able to place 1 within 3" of one of them. If you have the lords not standing next to each other then pretty much only a mob of units can cover the ground required.

also note you cant have the models within 1(or 2? don't have my brb with me atm) of an enemy model. Also, remember that typically speaking the lords will be challenged as to minimize the damage of MSS and his warscythe (can only deal wounds in the challenge, no overflow) so even if you get both MSS and warscythe hits on the challenge your only talking about one model being taking down with the lord, if he even gets THAT off. As long as the consolidating unit rols anything above a 3 or maybe a 2 depending on the size of the models base, the 3 inch bubble is gone as is the lord. Thats pretty good odds to completely ruin the strategy completely.

The roll of the 1 doesn't shatter the strat the lord still gets placed. Though if you do get unlucky and roll poorly(25% chance) and both lords don't get up, then really all you've lost was 160pts in lords and 65pts in warriors, its not like the ghost ark suddenly becomes useless.

it shatters the strat because you don't get to revive any more after that one fail. Which is what the entire strat depends on, bringing back the lords with the ark. If that's gone, the lord unit falls apart in one phase or maybe 2 to completely wipe out the maybe off chance one of the lords got back up. Re-read what I wrote, nowhere did I say that you DON'T get the D3 models on a 1, just that the strat ends in flames after that roll. And yes, without the repair, the ghost ark is useless, In a normal game, I would just ignore it after that. It'd be like getting a weapon destroyed result on a razorback, taking out the LC and leaving it with only a storm bolter on top. No longer a threat and you'd be better off sending anti AV13 firepower elsewhere.

1d3 Overlords sounds about right no? The problem is, it doesn't explicitly indicate what the models that are brought back actually represent other than that they had been a part of a Necron Warrior unit. One can 'infer' they meant warrior models, but why should players have to make that sort of judgement call? I'd say bring on an FAQ update. Who knows, perhaps GW is fine with a ghost ark bringing back Crypteks and Lords along with the unit they are attached to?

Edit: Upon further review. they are saying exactly that. huh.

One question spawned in my mind through this discussion.

If an entire group, consisting of warriors and crypteks, is wiped out, can you make your EL rolls first and then do RP for the warriors or are the all rolls done at the same time allowing only for EL in this case?

Nope, the necron codex specifically states that models with everliving do not count for that specific purpose (ie: reanimation protocols) for the unit they are part of/attached to. (so if no more non-'everliving' models in that unit that have not been reanimated that phase are on the table at the time you'd roll for reanimation, you'd remove all the non-EL tokens and not get to roll for any of them).

 Neorealist wrote:
Nope, the necron codex specifically states that models with everliving do not count for that specific purpose (ie: reanimation protocols) for the unit they are part of/attached to. (so if no more non-'everliving' models in that unit that have not been reanimated that phase are on the table at the time you'd roll for reanimation, you'd remove all the non-EL tokens and not get to roll for any of them).

Thats what I figured.

The reason I asked is because if a lord/cryptek is the lone survivor of a unit. Then I would see no reason you wouldn't be able to use the repair barge effect on the sole character to bring back slain warriors, since he is part of the warrior unit.

overlordweasel wrote:

how is it a 75% chance? 3 out of 6 possible results pass and/or fail, meaning its 3/6th of a chance, or 1/2 ergo 50% on the roll. That's just simple math.

Dude don't go talking about simple math when you don't know what your talking about, it just doesn't make you look good. Each roll is 50% but you have 2 rolls, because you have 2 lords, so there is a 75% chance that one of the 2 lords will get back up.

also note you cant have the models within 1(or 2? don't have my brb with me atm) of an enemy model. Also, remember that typically speaking the lords will be challenged as to minimize the damage of MSS and his warscythe (can only deal wounds in the challenge, no overflow) so even if you get both MSS and warscythe hits on the challenge your only talking about one model being taking down with the lord, if he even gets THAT off. As long as the consolidating unit rols anything above a 3 or maybe a 2 depending on the size of the models base, the 3 inch bubble is gone as is the lord. Thats pretty good odds to completely ruin the strategy completely.

Ya it's within 1", so the footprint is roughly 1 squared inch smaller than stated. My point was that to cover both tokens it's a lot of ground to cover and it's hard to do without a lot of models.

Re-read what I wrote, nowhere did I say that you DON'T get the D3 models on a 1, just that the strat ends in flames after that roll.

Ok your not communicating something here clearly, after the ghost ark takes a glancing hit the strategy ends in flames? Really not following you there, maybe if the ghost ark is down to 1HP sure but normally its no skin off its back.

And yes, without the repair, the ghost ark is useless, In a normal game, I would just ignore it after that. It'd be like getting a weapon destroyed result on a razorback, taking out the LC and leaving it with only a storm bolter on top. No longer a threat and you'd be better off sending anti AV13 firepower elsewhere.

You almost never see a ghost ark in an army with only 1 warrior squad. Odds are theres another warrior squad to go support. Of course you could always have an "interesting" way to build a list in which there is no synergy .

Anyway this is starting to detract from the point of this thread which is can the RC members be brought back from this rule, and not the viability of them being brought back.

Ya it's within 1", so the footprint is roughly 1 squared inch smaller than stated. My point was that to cover both tokens it's a lot of ground to cover and it's hard to do without a lot of models.

so a roughly 2" bubble around the marker, not that hard to do, I can make a 5 man of 28mm models do that easily with the previously stated roll of anything higher than a 2, and thats only counting on if there basic infantry and not jump or anything with 2d6...Then it goes into the realm of impossible to NOT cover the circle regardless of the roll, but I digress...

Ok your not communicating something here clearly, after the ghost ark takes a glancing hit the strategy ends in flames? Really not following you there, maybe if the ghost ark is down to 1HP sure but normally its no skin off its back.

I explained why it goes down in flames in the previous post pretty clearly, what was I unclear with? roll a one = no more revives after that. without the ability to sustain the lords failing their own EL rolls,the unit looses any form of fragile immortality it had and it becomes a matter of cleaning up whatever is left in the unit.

You almost never see a ghost ark in an army with only 1 warrior squad. Odds are theres another warrior squad to go support. Of course you could always have an "interesting" way to build a list in which there is no synergy .

That's irrelevant to the situation, the entire strategy is based on placing 1-2 lords with orbs into a unit of X warriors being fueled by a ghost ark's repairs to hold an objective indefinitely or at the very least an amusing distraction for the opponent. Anything more than that is unnecessary for the strat to work effectively. Not to mention its common sense that you'd be forced to have more than one squad of warriors/Immortals as per the FoC requiring at least 2 troops. In any case, the point still its a gross misuse of points to hold a single objective and altogether way to easy to ruin by a savy player or any CC dedicated unit of typically 10 or more, especially something like a horde army would laugh as it sends ~180 points just to mulch 300+ in a turn or less. It's a neat trick, just too bad its not cost effective to field.


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also id agree, it needs a FAQ in every sense of the word. If only to clarify to discourage any shenanigans