Ellen Barkin Hopes Hurricane Kills 'Every Pro-Life, Xenophobic, Gay-Bashing SOB' At The RNC

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**Sgt_Scruffy**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.

Which don't work in a helicopter.

Helicopters weren't armed in Katrina. No one brought a M240H to a disaster zone.

The men in the helicopters weren't unarmed.

there's a big difference between an M9 and an M240H. As a Blackhawk piot who works with over a hundred people who helped deliver supplies, fly rescue flights, and was on the ground within 24 hours of Katrina passing though (basically as soonas the weather was clear enough to get there) people were not shooting from helicopters to the ground. People were however, shooting AT helicopter FROM the ground.

Yeah, I mentioned that one two pages back. That stuff was all over the news. As a blackhawk pilot who worked with over 100 people to deliver supplies, did you do anything about looting? Did you take part in the effort to disarm people in their own property?

I was unclear. I was an engineer at the time so i was working dozers and backhoes and stuff like that. I am NOW a blackhawk pilot and most of my company was at Katrina. Standing ROE as far as I remember it, (7 years, 3 deployments and about 6000 different ROEs later) was that we were to protect private and public property from looting but that we were not to enter any premises that was occupied without permission. IIRC, most of the disarming was done by local police. We did not possess police powers. We were tasked with protecting infrastructure. Protecting the food/water in Walmart was to ensure that when we DID seize it (and we did in some instances), it was fairly and equitably distributed and that the owners were properly compensated. Most looting was ignored by all accounts for the first 24-48 hours as I've been told. People were too busy saving lives. It was only after sufficient forces and supplies were in place that we really started reestablishing the rule of law.

The fething thing was that every agency had their own ROE. I'm not saying that nothing like shooting looters ever happened. I doubt the National Guard had anything to do with it.

**Kovnik Obama**

Meh, I'll file this under 'why I would never chose a military life, because it would dehumanize me', and be done with it.

**Sgt_Scruffy**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Spoken like a true soldier. Repeat the procedures to absolve you of moral responsability. If that doesn't work, repeat louder

Moral responsibility eh. Your not grasping whats this leading to. Nor how a soldier chain of thought is going to take him/her to. We cannot take sides. Its one or the other.

Here is advocated the shooting of civilians in the case they become too persistent in trying to obtain essential goods, because, in a city where all semblence of law and order has gone, it is defined as illegal. Yes, I cannot understand it.

I'll point out that I SPECIFICALLY mentioned that this was not the ROE for NO. We were only authorized to use deadly force in self defense or the defense of another in danger of death or serious injury. That is a basic escalation of force matrix that generally gets the point across.

The more I think about it, I was generally instructed to secure a property (such as a relief shelter - which were also looted in some instances) by means of a presence patrol or guard duty. Most people didn't feth with a squad of soldiers in full gear. If they did, we were instructed to show our intent - ie to keep them from looting or accessing the area through unauthorized means. If they persisted, we would either gently persuade them to leave or detain them while simultaneously calling the cops. ONLY IF they displayed violent tendencies or an intent to harm us or others would the more violent escalation of force procedures come into effect.

Also, stop claiming that I advocated shooting civilians. It's dishonest.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Meh, I'll file this under 'why I would never chose a military life, because it would dehumanize me', and be done with it.

and I'll file that under thank freakin' God.

**Seaward**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Meh, I'll file this under 'why I would never chose a military life, because it would dehumanize me', and be done with it.

It's certainly not for everyone.

I consider myself quite human. It could be the zombie apocalypse, for all I care; you try and take my stuff without permission, and I have the means of stopping you from doing so? I'm using them.

**ShumaGorath**

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Apparently, according to Shuma, private property laws should cease to exist the minute a disaster strikes. By your own admission, you can't find a source. National Guard soldiers had rules of engagement in NO/LA. Typically simplified as show, shout, shove, shoot.

Which don't work in a helicopter.

Helicopters weren't armed in Katrina. No one brought a M240H to a disaster zone.

The men in the helicopters weren't unarmed.

there's a big difference between an M9 and an M240H. As a Blackhawk piot who works with over a hundred people who helped deliver supplies, fly rescue flights, and was on the ground within 24 hours of Katrina passing though (basically as soonas the weather was clear enough to get there) people were not shooting from helicopters to the ground. People were however, shooting AT helicopter FROM the ground.

Yeah, I mentioned that one two pages back. That stuff was all over the news. As a blackhawk pilot who worked with over 100 people to deliver supplies, did you do anything about looting? Did you take part in the effort to disarm people in their own property?

I was unclear. I was an engineer at the time so i was working dozers and backhoes and stuff like that. I am NOW a blackhawk pilot and most of my company was at Katrina. Standing ROE as far as I remember it, (7 years, 3 deployments and about 6000 different ROEs later) was that we were to protect private and public property from looting but that we were not to enter any premises that was occupied without permission. IIRC, most of the disarming was done by local police. We did not possess police powers. We were tasked with protecting infrastructure. Protecting the food/water in Walmart was to ensure that when we DID seize it (and we did in some instances), it was fairly and equitably distributed and that the owners were properly compensated. Most looting was ignored by all accounts for the first 24-48 hours as I've been told. People were too busy saving lives. It was only after sufficient forces and supplies were in place that we really started reestablishing the rule of law.

The fething thing was that every agency had their own ROE. I'm not saying that nothing like shooting looters ever happened. I doubt the National Guard had anything to do with it.

Since I can't find a reported incident concerning looting (I can find incidents with public disarmament, but that was never really core to my arguments) of it I'll side with you and change my stance on the issue concerning the quality of work that the NatGuard put in. I still find their stated official mission in regards to looting to be an unhelpful and possibly dangerous one considering the on site circumstances, but as I said from the outset I think the response to Katrina was an organizational failure by a lot of different organizations. I don't really think it's on the shoulders of soldiers or police on the ground.

**Amaya**

I can agree with you on that.

**Sgt_Scruffy**

same.

**Grey Templar**

And I'll third that.

**Frazzled**

ShumaGorath wrote:
This will get you in trouble. Thought maybe you should ask the soldiers where a Service TOC is located to recieve the basic essential? Mind you. We cannot give you water or food from ourselves. Nor will we let you loot the store. That puts us in danger and you in danger.

"Help me I'm dying from dehydration"
"No"
"Can I get some water out of the store behind you?"
"No"

The national guard!

Same applies to the above. We are protecting the people.

No, you're protecting peoples things. If you were protecting people you'd land the chopper and help get the soon to be rotting food out of the store and into peoples hands.

Again. Do you have any instances on vid of people being shot while getting water????"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Sgt_Scruffy wrote:

Show your presence/Show that you are armed.
Shout that you have to stop whatever it may be that you are doing
Shove or some other form of non-lethal behavior such as detain, warning shot (although we no longer really do warning shots), aim your weapon etc...
Shoot - self explanatory.

Spoken like a true soldier. Repeat the procedures to absolve you of moral responsability. If that doesn't work, repeat louder.

And when they start looting houses and people open up with shotguns, what then?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Meh, I'll file this under 'why I would never chose a military life, because it would dehumanize me', and be done with it.

Or "would I would go in restore order, and provide needed supplies to people stranded." Gotcha.

**Kovnik Obama**

Frazzled wrote:

And when they start looting houses and people open up with shotguns, what then?

I often forget that the majority of Dakka lives in trigger-happy country. Last time we had a major disaster up here, the ice storm of 98, people banded togheter and shared stuff. Odd, right?

inb4, COMMUNISTS!!!

**Frazzled**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

And when they start looting houses and people open up with shotguns, what then?

I often forget that the majority of Dakka lives in trigger-happy country. Last time we had a major disaster up here, the ice storm of 98, people banded togheter and shared stuff. Odd, right?

inb4, COMMUNISTS!!!

Same for Houston in Ike and Alicia, the gun capital of the Holy Terra.

**d-usa**

Kovnik Obama wrote:
Frazzled wrote:

And when they start looting houses and people open up with shotguns, what then?

I often forget that the majority of Dakka lives in trigger-happy country. Last time we had a major disaster up here, the ice storm of 98, people banded togheter and shared stuff. Odd, right?

inb4, COMMUNISTS!!!

Heck, even us crazy Okies did that.

During the last big Ice Storm/Blizzard people were getting stranded in the streets while trying to make it home. We ended up with interactive maps where people uploaded where they were stranded and other people posted their homes on the map so that people who got stuck could bunker down with them.

**Amaya**

That sounds like a typical friendly small town reaction though. I can't imagine it would work well in an urban environment.

**Kovnik Obama**

d-usa wrote:
During the last big Ice Storm/Blizzard people were getting stranded in the streets while trying to make it home. We ended up with interactive maps where people uploaded where they were stranded and other people posted their homes on the map so that people who got stuck could bunker down with them.

That is mighty cool.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:
That sounds like a typical friendly small town reaction though. I can't imagine it would work well in an urban environment.

Montreal isn't exactly 'friendly small town'. But then it's not New York either.

Still, 2 days ago I got to see 4 cops tackling down a drunken dude with a machete trying to pick up fights in the middle of the street. Didn't see that in the 700 peeps village I grew up in.

**Jihadin**

Still, 2 days ago I got to see 4 cops tackling down a drunken dude with a machete trying to pick up fights in the middle of the street. Didn't see that in the 700 peeps village I grew up in.

Hopefully not near the stripper clubs you ccoonnnvvviieennttllyyyy live close by.....

**d-usa**

Amaya wrote:
That sounds like a typical friendly small town reaction though. I can't imagine it would work well in an urban environment.

Oklahoma City greater metropolitan area. 8th largest city by land area in the United States, largest city by land area in the United States if you don't include consolidated city-counties. We rank 31st in the United States for largest cities by population.

None of that includes the suburbs that were also involved in this effort which bump our population and area even higher.

We are far from your typical small town

.

A nice summary of our mindset that I found while doing a quick search:

The Oklahoma Standard has been defined as a new level of caring. It was first publicly noted when some members of the media observed that citizens in Oklahoma ran toward the Murrah Building immediately after the bombing rather than away from the building. When a need for blood was broadcast, it had to be followed by an advisory to stay home, because more people lined up than were needed. When an announcement was made that work boots were needed at the site, workers pulled up and took off their boots and left them. First responders from out of town found that they could not go to a restaurant and pay for their own meals. Either the restaurant owner would refuse their money or another diner had already covered the ticket. The legend of the “Oklahoma Dollar” is based upon a first responder commenting that he was leaving Oklahoma with the same dollar he had when he arrived because, during his entire stay in Oklahoma, he had been unable to spend that dollar.

A standard of individual response was set that exceeded any that had been experienced before. Why? No one knows, but it left two lasting legacies. It would be expected at all future disasters. This is why looting in the wake of a disaster is so abhorrent. The circumstances created by massive trauma require helping one another, not preying on one another. The Oklahoma Standard established a challenge for the people of Oklahoma to never lower the baseline. It is why the people of Oklahoma must continue to reach out to help others after a disaster and why they feel driven to bring hope from the rubble of other disasters.

**Amaya**

**Kovnik Obama**

Jihadin wrote:
Still, 2 days ago I got to see 4 cops tackling down a drunken dude with a machete trying to pick up fights in the middle of the street. Didn't see that in the 700 peeps village I grew up in.

Hopefully not near the stripper clubs you ccoonnnvvviieennttllyyyy live close by.....

That honestly made me chuckle.

And it's bordellos, not strip clubs (although there's one about 15 minutes away, but it's trashy beyond hope. Strippers should retire before they hit 45, if you ask me.

The machete dude seriously scared the gak out of me. I wasn't aware at all of what was happening, so I walked up to like 20 feet away from him before I realised he was waving off a machete at officers. If you ask me he's lucky they just didn't shot him down.

**Jihadin**

They had one in New York that did get shot dow. He was eilding a knife I think

**sebster**

When I was a young fella I had something of a thing for Ellen Barkin, after Sea of Love. Not much surprise that she's barking mad, any shock I might have had that hot girl were frequently crazy disappeared with Sharon Stone in about 1996. Or from talking to pretty girls in real life. I can't remember which of those things happened first.

whembly wrote:

And here I thought that just the (R) are crazy... Thanks Frazzle...

TL;DR: There's whackos everywhere....

Yeah, there's whackos everywhere, and they're pretty common in both liberal and conservative circles. The difference is that the whackos in the Republican party in the last couple of decades have actually started taking up positions of leadership, and that's a big problem.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:
I think he may have confused you for a card carrying republican frazz....

It's an easy mistake to make. I mean, when a guy posts a string of Republican press releases, one after the next, and spouts a stream of conservative talking points in threads, well then it's easy to assume he might just be a Republican.

**Ouze**

I stand by my earlier assertion that the vast majority of "Libertarians" minted since 2008 are simply your typical conservative Republicans-in-hiding, waiting for the W stink to wear off their brand so they can reclaim it. Proof: all these "small government libertarians" virtually always strongly believe in using the power of government to curtail abortion.

Also, I can't imagine almost anyone has spared a thought for Ellen Barkin in 20 years, prior to this thread. Sometimes you can find the derp just laying around, sometimes you have to go mining for it, but the one essential truth in the OT is "The derp must flow".