Ellen Barkin Hopes Hurricane Kills 'Every Pro-Life, Xenophobic, Gay-Bashing SOB' At The RNC

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**kronk**

There are also reports of people being eaten by alligators during the evacuation.

There are also reports that the levies broke because they were built by white people that don't care about black people.

I don't believe those reports, either.

**Frazzled**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Then-FEMA Director Michael D. Brown was criticized personally for a slow response and an apparent disconnection with the situation. Michael Brown would eventually be relieved of command of the Katrina disaster and soon thereafter resigned

Shuma I'm curious. Where do you see the NG shooting someone? As in link. All I'm getting is the police shooting someone at the stadium.

There were reports of them firing warning shots into the air to traffic peoples movements around the city. They had orders to prevent looting and to herd people to shelters or out of dangerous areas, but the threat of death was implied via use of the weapons and these are American citizens in many cases trying to return to their homes.

There are also reports of FEMA and NatGuard helicopters being shot at (and indeed they had to suspend some operations because of it). The whole thing was pretty mad max.

What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:
There are also reports of people being eaten by alligators during the evacuation.

There are also reports that the levies broke because they were built by white people that don't care about black people.

I don't believe those reports, either.

Alligators you might.

**kronk**

Wasn't Geraldo Rivera mugged, shot and buried alive during the Katrina coverage?

If not, why not?

**Frazzled**

kronk wrote:
Wasn't Geraldo Rivera mugged, shot and buried alive during the Katrina coverage?

If not, why not?

I think the investigation needs to center on 'why not!'

**ShumaGorath**

What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).

The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.

**Jihadin**

Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.

**whembly**

Jihadin wrote:
Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.

Wait... this is now happening?
Gotta souce?
o.O

**Frazzled**

ShumaGorath wrote:
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).

The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.

Er.. Thats a big focus. LA riots being an example.

Zombie games being the best example.

**ShumaGorath**

Jihadin wrote:
Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.

And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.

**Frazzled**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.

And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.

You mean the people going for TVs.

**ShumaGorath**

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).

The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.

Er.. Thats a big focus. LA riots being an example.

Zombie games being the best example.

The LA riots were riots. Post Katrina was a disaster zone where supply lines were consistently failing and inadequate and people were dying due to a lack of supplies. I value the people who need the bottles floating in four feet of water in that grocery store over the profit margin of the destroyed grocery store. As a libertarian I would think that you would be against military intrusion forcing people to die via dehydration, but then I don't think you're actually a libertarian.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.

And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.

You mean the people going for TVs.

No, I mean the people going for food. It was indiscriminate.

**Jihadin**

INTRODUCTION: National Guard forces normally operate in state active duty (SAD) status when responding to disasters and civil emergency. During such assistance efforts, one of their primary functions is to reinforce law enforcement agencies. The National Guard, once federalized, like the Active Army, becomes bound by the Posse Comitatus Act and loses the ability to act as a law enforcement agency.
In Florida the National Guard performed its mission in a SAD status following Hurricane Andrew. A plan was in place, and units were trained and tested during previous emergencies. This preparation and training enabled the National Guard to provide immediate response and assistance to law enforcement agencies and other civil authorities throughout the disaster area.

As the storm approached the southeast coast of Florida, the Adjutant General activated units in its forecasted path. Other units throughout the state were placed on alert. Soldiers living in the path of the storm were assembled at armories north of the storm to provide a ready response force. Early activation worked well considering the uncertainties of the hurricane's path.

As the hurricane passed through Homestead, Florida City, and Southern Dade County, National Guard forces moved from the Miami armory into devastated areas. By this time, the civilian population, which had evacuated Homestead and Florida City areas, were now returning to their homes. The combination of military and civilian traffic caused a tremendous traffic problem and prevented military forces from arriving in the disaster area in a timely manner. During the first few days of relief operations, the National Guard provided security to prevent looting and rioting, provided medical treatment, cleared streets and highways, transported and distributed food, water, and medical supplies, and assisted in providing food and temporary shelter facilities for displaced families.

As federal assistance began to arrive, many relief functions were transferred to the federal military (JTF Andrew), allowing the governor to focus the National Guard efforts toward support of law enforcement. Through frequent and continuous support to law enforcement agencies over the past three years in counterdrug efforts, the National Guard was able to respond immediately to the needs of those agencies. Support request procedures and liaison had been established and were operational before the arrival of Hurricane Andrew.

The National Guard did an outstanding job of providing disaster assistance support to victims of Hurricane Andrew. However, with the overwhelming amount of devastation in the hurricane's path, it was necessary to augment the state's resources with those of the federal government. The National Guard provided an essential link between the state government and the federal military. This activity is invaluable in accomplishment of a disaster assistance mission. As the governors' first line of defense in times of disaster and civil emergency, the National Guard must coordinate closely with the Active Component for mutual support. Unity of effort in disaster operations is the key to success.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/call_93-6_chap9.htm

For the active components its providing security at designated points. Walmart with its parking lot can be used to stage military operations. Just ways around it.

**Frazzled**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).

The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.

Er.. Thats a big focus. LA riots being an example.

Zombie games being the best example.

The LA riots were riots. Post Katrina was a disaster zone where supply lines were consistently failing and inadequate and people were dying due to a lack of supplies. I value the people who need the bottles floating in four feet of water in that grocery store over the profit margin of the destroyed grocery store. As a libertarian I would think that you would be against military intrusion forcing people to die via dehydration, but then I don't think you're actually a libertarian.

If you have proof - actual proof- of people being shot by troopers for water, please present. The JAG might want to hear about it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.

And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.

You mean the people going for TVs.

No, I mean the people going for food. It was indiscriminate.

**Jihadin**

Whoa...WTH...where we go off to now?

**Seaward**

You guys can never stay on a topic for long, can you?

**Amaya**

Shumagorath believes the evil forces of brainwashed racist National Guard soldiers indiscriminately kill looters taking vital supplies.

**Frazzled**

NG shooting people for water. Drop that case of Perrier varmint!

Could have happened. I want some proof though.

**Jihadin**

Who saying there's illegal kills in New Orleans?

**Amaya**

Is now a good time to remind people of the Katrina refugee rape party in the Astrodome? At least I think it was the Astrodome...that's the one in Houston right?

**Frazzled**

Jihadin wrote:
Who saying there's illegal kills in New Orleans?

Shuma. In Shuma's defense NO is the only known US city to have an active serial killer on the police force. Anything can happen in the Big Easy (ok except vegetarians)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:
Is now a good time to remind people of the Katrina refugee rape party in the Astrodome? At least I think it was the Astrodome...that's the one in Houston right?

Whats awesome is that Houston is hours and hours away from New Orleans. We don't cotton to that here.
You're thinking of the Superdome in New Orleans I think.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:
Shumagorath believes the evil forces of brainwashed racist National Guard soldiers indiscriminately kill looters taking vital supplies.

Cheese is vital. Cheese is life!

**Sgt_Scruffy**

So long story short, a crazy woman hates republicans. Also, apparently, Katrina was a giant clusterfeth. I was part of the response force for Katrina (Eastern Louisiana, not New Orleans) and really it was a worst case scenario. I know from first hand experience that alot of the local National Guard armories were either under water or totally fethed. In many cases, they had to dig themselves out before they could be any use to other people.

Additionally, many of the actual soldiers were stranded due to flooded out roads, destroyed homes/cars, loss of communications due to loss of power and the confusion that resulted because everyone was cut off from the chain of command.

I personally met a soldier that actually hitchhiked 40 miles to his armory because his car had been destroyed and he had no communications due to loss of power/cell phone towers.

Disaster response is part of the National Guard's job, and frankly, we're dang good at it. However, mobilizing thousands or tens of thousands of men with all their associated supplies is a time consuming process. Some units mobilized people ahead of the storm which was a smart move, but many of them had families to look after and homes to protect.

I think it's fairly easy to arm-chair general the aftermath, and no doubt many people at local, state, and federal level deserve blame, but it really was the perfect storm.

**Frazzled**

NG troops back in NO today. Good call although this is a cat 1 only.
"Citizens have to be prepared. I'm going to ask you to hunker down," Landrieu said, as hundreds of U.S. Army National Guard troops took up strategic positions around New Orleans.

**Amaya**

I'm pretty sure a lot of refugees ended up in Houston though. There were a few in SA as well.

**Frazzled**

Amaya wrote:
I'm pretty sure a lot of refugees ended up in Houston though. There were a few in SA as well.

And Austin. We had some families permanently in Austin. But no parties in the Astrodome. Lots of stories about the Superdome though.

Cool radar for right now. Classic pattern:
http://www.khou.com/weather/radar?radar=70544977&img=27&c=y

**ShumaGorath**

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
What whats wrong with that? There was widespread looting going on (as shown on TV).

The national guard isn't in the business of doing policework and I specifically emphasized that they were using warning shots to direct people to shelters or to enforce restricted mobility (that wasn't communicated to the people being threatened), not just prevent looting. Don't respond to me if you're going to cherry pick something so that you can make a cutesy one liner.

Er.. Thats a big focus. LA riots being an example.

Zombie games being the best example.

The LA riots were riots. Post Katrina was a disaster zone where supply lines were consistently failing and inadequate and people were dying due to a lack of supplies. I value the people who need the bottles floating in four feet of water in that grocery store over the profit margin of the destroyed grocery store. As a libertarian I would think that you would be against military intrusion forcing people to die via dehydration, but then I don't think you're actually a libertarian.

If you have proof - actual proof- of people being shot by troopers for water, please present. The JAG might want to hear about it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Yes the National Guard can be deployed to prevent looting. Actually US Military Ground Forces can be deployed to prevent looting.

And they do it badly when they do it from a helicopter and shoot at people holding bulk packs of water bottles they're pulling from grocery stores. If they're going to feth it up and shoot at people trying to provide for survivors they shouldn't do it at all.

You mean the people going for TVs.

No, I mean the people going for food. It was indiscriminate.

1. Wait we're seeing complaints that nothing's being done. The NG comes in to restore order-thats standing issue in a natural disaster (they were there during the earthquakes as well) and thats wrong too? As you said this is a natural disaster. Thats military law time.
2. Again, pics or it didn't happen of people being shot for water bottles. Thats a pretty bold allegation. Maybe its correct, maybe its not, but you need proof for such.

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2005/09/20050901-2.html

President Bush said that saving lives should come first, but he and the local New Orleans Government also stated that they will have zero tolerance for looters. White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan affirmed that looters should not be allowed to take food, water or shoes, that they should get those things through some other way.

As for actual cases of shooting moving through JAG or being pursued/prosecuted I'm not finding any immediately. There were a lot of news clips of overly forceful Natguard during the crisis and at the time those comments were a pretty major controversy. There were a lot of instances of force used by them in disarming the public that I can find, but that's not using shots to kill looters. I can find instances of warning shots, which is what I had inferred three posts in a row. The direct orders they had to prevent the looting of life saving items with lethal force stands by itself.

**Sgt_Scruffy**

Keep in mind that there are several verified accounts of National Guard soldiers and helicopters being shot at by looters. It was a chaotic situation.

**Grey Templar**

Their actual orders were to stop looting, even if it was for life saving items.

Stealing food because you are starving is still stealing. And it can be hard to tell the difference between stealing food and stealing TVs from a helicopter.

**Jihadin**

Looting is looting

**ShumaGorath**

Jihadin wrote:
Looting is looting

Yep, and that's the kind of thinking that paralyzes a government response and makes a military illegitimate.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Their actual orders were to stop looting, even if it was for life saving items.

Stealing food because you are starving is still stealing. And it can be hard to tell the difference between stealing food and stealing TVs from a helicopter.

One would think that the grocery stores sign would be visible from the air.

**Grey Templar**

Yeah, but how do they know they're stealing water/food and not crates of wine/booze. Grocery stores sell stuff that can be hocked on the black market.