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leohart wrote:
The rule gives you: If A, then you can B. It doesn't allow you to do If not A, then you can B.

Correct. If you are a zooming Flyer, you may choose to evade. If you are not a zooming Flyer, you may not choose to evade. However, once that choice is made, your status is no longer relevant.

Thus, the second you are no longer A, you are no longer B. Thus, you broke the rule and your action is not allowed.

Does not follow. If I have at least 45.50+tax in my wallet, I can buy a Stormtalon from my local GW store. If I do not have at least 45.50+tax in my wallet, I cannot buy a Stormtalon from my local GW store. I choose to buy a Stormtalon and give my money to the clerk. By your logic, the second I no longer have the money I am no longer allowed to buy a Stormtalon, so my previous action is invalidated. This is obviously wrong-- the fact that I currently do not have the ability to make a choice does not influence my previous choices.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And again you are ignoring that by trying to change mode you are breaking the rules for Evade with no permission to do so.

Since I've now explained multiple times how changing mode does not break the rules for Evade and you continue to insist that it does without rules justifications, you're now on my ignore list. Don't bother replying to my posts in the future, as I will not see your responses.

Except Nos is correct.

Changing to hover mode makes you not a flyer anymore.

Doing so makes you lose evade, which lasts til the end of your next turn.

"...Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the link special rule, but only fi.res Snap Shots."

Once you have chosen to evade you must do so until the end of your next turn. If you are not a flyer anymore you do not have the evade rules, as those are only for Zooming flyers, and you have broken the Evade rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Nos is correct.

Changing to hover mode makes you not a flyer anymore.

Doing so makes you lose evade, which lasts til the end of your next turn.

There isn't any rule that says that non-Flyers can't be Evading, only that non-Flyers cannot initiate Evading.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Nos is correct.

Changing to hover mode makes you not a flyer anymore.

Doing so makes you lose evade, which lasts til the end of your next turn.

"...Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the link special rule, but only fi.res Snap Shots."

Once you have chosen to evade you must do so until the end of your next turn. If you are not a flyer anymore you do not have the evade rules, as those are only for Zooming flyers, and you have broken the Evade rule.

I still see a problem with the "rules cannot break other rules" logic.

Re-rolling a Run roll violates the rules under "running" where it is not stated that you may reroll the D6.

Re-rolling the Run roll is permitted by fleet.

However, if you re-roll your run die (permitted by fleet or otherwise) then you have broken the Run rule.

This is statement possesses the logical structure of P -> ~Q, IF (you reroll the run die) THEN (you are NOT following the Run rule).

The statement "If you Hover Strike then you are not following the Evade rule" follows the same logical structure: P -> ~Q. You should apply the same logic in all situations, so...

can I fleet or not?

There isn't any rule that says that non-Flyers can't be Evading, only that non-Flyers cannot initiate Evading.

That is not how the rule work. You need a rule that permit you to evade when you are not a flyer to be able to do it.

There isn't a rule for A, so I can do A is wrong.

Does not follow. If I have at least 45.50+tax in my wallet, I can buy a Stormtalon from my local GW store. If I do not have at least 45.50+tax in my wallet, I cannot buy a Stormtalon from my local GW store. I choose to buy a Stormtalon and give my money to the clerk. By your logic, the second I no longer have the money I am no longer allowed to buy a Stormtalon, so my previous action is invalidated. This is obviously wrong-- the fact that I currently do not have the ability to make a choice does not influence my previous choices.

Metaphor only goes so far. I guess I should not have brought metaphor up. My point still stands.

Unit - and, again, that logic is wrong. You are explicitly breaking the rule for evade, run is not explicitly broken. Apples and oranges.

Kingsley - fair enough, you repeated the same ruleless argument over and over. Ignore is fine;

leohart wrote:

There isn't any rule that says that non-Flyers can't be Evading, only that non-Flyers cannot initiate Evading.

That is not how the rule work. You need a rule that permit you to evade when you are not a flyer to be able to do it.

There isn't a rule for A, so I can do A is wrong.

I see it the other way around. The rule talks about what you need to initiate Evading-- you need to be a Zooming Flyer. If you've met that condition, you've met that condition.

You would need a rule that prevented you from switching modes once you were Evading to be able to prevent you from going into Hover Mode or Hover Strike. I'm not saying that "there isn't a rule for Evading Skimmers, so Skimmers can Evade," but rather that "the Evade rules don't say you can't switch modes, so you can." There would need to be a rule restricting you from using your Hover Mode or Hover Strike ability when Evading to prevent this from occurring.

There is - which is that you have to remain evading for a full turn. If you stop evading you have broken a rule
Which you consistently ignore.

I am pretty sure the rule doesn't say initiate Evading. It says "keep on Evading until the end of the turn". From the text, Evading is duration-bound.

If you look at Go to Ground, once you go to Ground, you cannot do anything until the end of your subsequent turn (except snap firing). But the rule specifically allow you get back to normal should you Fall Back. Combat Tactics allow you to Fall Back. All possible actions are clearly spelled out. For you to be able to switch mode after you Evade, there has to be a rule that says so.

Claiming that you can switch to Hover Mode/Hover Strike after you decided to Evade for one full turn is like claiming that you can pop smoke after you decided to let the passengers shoot their gun.

leohart wrote:
I am pretty sure the rule doesn't say initiate Evading. It says "keep on Evading until the end of the turn". From the text, Evading is duration-bound.

The rule says that "a Zooming Flyer may choose to Evade." Once you've made that choice, you no longer have to be a Zooming Flyer.

I really dont see the point of this debate.

The only thing that really matters is Snap Fire.

Zooming, Hovering or Hover Striking either way the shot are resolved as Snap Shots after evading.

Honestly a player would have to be stupid to choose to hover or hover strike after evading. It would leave his flyer as a sitting duck.

ugh ok ok ok jeez you guys, how about this: take this whole thread and send it to Jervis @ GW. He'll respond, he always has to me, and get his final ruling. Please?

 Kingsley wrote:

leohart wrote:
I am pretty sure the rule doesn't say initiate Evading. It says "keep on Evading until the end of the turn". From the text, Evading is duration-bound.

The rule says that "a Zooming Flyer may choose to Evade." Once you've made that choice, you no longer have to be a Zooming Flyer.

Where's the rules support for that argument? Remember, prove you CAN do something, not saying the rules don't say xyz. If it was intended that you could evade and then not zoom, it would have been worded, after you have chosen to evade you are free to move at a different speed. It doesn't. It just says a zooming flyer can choose to evade. It's a simple if/then statement.

If the rules tell us we can evade when zooming, then we must be zooming when we evade. Until you provide rules support (not lack of rules because the BBB doesn't tell us a lot of things we can't do as I pointed out earlier) you're going to have a hard time convincing people of your argument. Since there is no rules support for your argument, it's going to be tough to sway people.

40k-noob wrote:
I really dont see the point of this debate.

The only thing that really matters is Snap Fire.

Zooming, Hovering or Hover Striking either way the shot are resolved as Snap Shots after evading.

Honestly a player would have to be stupid to choose to hover or hover strike after evading. It would leave his flyer as a sitting duck.

If Hover Strike is allowed after Evading, you don't end up Snap Firing. Those rules apply to Evading Flyers, not Evading Skimmers.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Where's the rules support for that argument? Remember, prove you CAN do something, not saying the rules don't say xyz. If it was intended that you could evade and then not zoom, it would have been worded, after you have chosen to evade you are free to move at a different speed. It doesn't. It just says a zooming flyer can choose to evade. It's a simple if/then statement.

Much the reverse. The rules say that a Zooming Flyer may choose to Evade. Okay, check.

Now on my next turn, my Evading Flyer has a choice to make. Do I want to Hover Strike? I look at the Evade rule and nothing says that I can't. I look at the Hover Strike rule and nothing says that I can't. I now choose to Hover Strike. I'm still Evading, but now I'm an Evading Skimmer instead of an Evading Flyer. At no point have I violated any rule. If it were intended that I had to Zoom after Evading, the Evade rule would point that out or the Hover Strike rule would simply indicate that it couldn't be used after Evading. Neither of those rules say that, so I can still Hover Strike.

There is no such thing as an Evading Skimmer.

 Kingsley wrote:
. At no point have I violated any rule.

Except you're twisting the rules to fit your interpretation. Evading skimmers? Not only is it violating a rule, it's creating a completely new one. Evade can only be found in the flyer rules. You're applying it to the skimmer rules, and trying to say see it's not there guess it doesn't affect them. You cannot apply Evade to a vehicle other than a flyer. The next step is that a zooming skimmer is the only one that gets the choice to evade, and if you choose to evade you have to apply the negative side of it until the very end. In other words you cannot Evade, then switch to hover mode because you are still in the process of evading and zooming was needed to initiate it. Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

 Kingsley wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I really dont see the point of this debate.

The only thing that really matters is Snap Fire.

Zooming, Hovering or Hover Striking either way the shot are resolved as Snap Shots after evading.

Honestly a player would have to be stupid to choose to hover or hover strike after evading. It would leave his flyer as a sitting duck.

If Hover Strike is allowed after Evading, you don't end up Snap Firing. Those rules apply to Evading Flyers, not Evading Skimmers.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Where's the rules support for that argument? Remember, prove you CAN do something, not saying the rules don't say xyz. If it was intended that you could evade and then not zoom, it would have been worded, after you have chosen to evade you are free to move at a different speed. It doesn't. It just says a zooming flyer can choose to evade. It's a simple if/then statement.

Much the reverse. The rules say that a Zooming Flyer may choose to Evade. Okay, check.

Now on my next turn, my Evading Flyer has a choice to make. Do I want to Hover Strike? I look at the Evade rule and nothing says that I can't. I look at the Hover Strike rule and nothing says that I can't. I now choose to Hover Strike. I'm still Evading, but now I'm an Evading Skimmer instead of an Evading Flyer. At no point have I violated any rule. If it were intended that I had to Zoom after Evading, the Evade rule would point that out or the Hover Strike rule would simply indicate that it couldn't be used after Evading. Neither of those rules say that, so I can still Hover Strike.

No, you are incorrect. FAQ makes that pretty clear.

Once you are restricted to Snap Fire, no Special rule or Wargear can modify the ballistic Skill of Snap Shots.

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

Switching to hover strike will not modify your restriction to Snap Fire.

40k-noob wrote:

No, you are incorrect. FAQ makes that pretty clear.

Once you are restricted to Snap Fire, no Special rule or Wargear can modify the ballistic Skill of Snap Shots.

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of
Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

Switching to hover strike will not modify your restriction to Snap Fire.

Switching to Hover Strike removes the restriction on Snap Fire. That restriction applies only to Evading Flyers. A Stormtalon in Hover Strike mode is not a Flyer and therefore is not restricted to Snap Fire if it Evaded in the previous turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
. At no point have I violated any rule.

Except you're twisting the rules to fit your interpretation. Evading skimmers? Not only is it violating a rule, it's creating a completely new one. Evade can only be found in the flyer rules. You're applying it to the skimmer rules, and trying to say see it's not there guess it doesn't affect them.

No, I'm just pointing out that the Evade rule only has an effect on Evading Flyers. If you're Evading but no longer a Flyer, the rule doesn't affect you.

Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

That definitely isn't true. It's really not justified anywhere, in fact. For instance, let's take Counter-Attack. Let's say we have a unit comprised of 10 models without Counter-Attack and one model with it. This unit gets charged and passes its Counter-Attack test. The model with Counter-Attack is then killed by Hammer of Wrath attacks. Does the unit suddenly lose their bonus attacks because it lost the prerequisite for the ability, even though it already took and passed its test? This seems obviously wrong.

 Kingsley wrote:

Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

That definitely isn't true. It's really not justified anywhere, in fact. For instance, let's take Counter-Attack. Let's say we have a unit comprised of 10 models without Counter-Attack and one model with it. This unit gets charged and passes its Counter-Attack test. The model with Counter-Attack is then killed by Hammer of Wrath attacks. Does the unit suddenly lose their bonus attacks because it lost the prerequisite for the ability, even though it already took and passed its test? This seems obviously wrong.

In that situation, the unit does lose their counter attack bonus. We have numerous faqs that tell us that a unit determines if it has a special ability just before it strikes. Look at the Blood Chalice rule for the Blood Angels. If the unit is out of range when it attacks (even if it was in range when it charged) it loses the furious charge rule. You do not work out the number of attacks a unit has until it comes time for models to strike, and at that point the unit would not have the counter attack rule, that means that even though you passed the test and had it at the start of the fight subphase, when it comes time to attack you do not have the rule and thus cannot make use of it. Even if you rolled for it. With evade once you choose to use it (remember, you do NOT have to evade) you are stuck with it until evade fully resolves, and evade doesn't end (read resolve) until the turn after it was initiated.

Let me ask this, if a Storm Talon suffers an immobilized result on a turn that it is a flyer and suffers locked velocity, can you use hover strike? The answer is no, because you are forced to move at the speed you moved when suffering the result. Evade is similar to locked velocity, in that once you choose to evade for one turn you're stuck with it for the next turn. Once the velocity is locked you're stuck with it until the end of the game. Hover strike allows the overriding of Zoom, and only zoom. When you add an additional component to that zoom (Evade or Locked velocity for example), you cannot override it with hover strike because hover strike is only able to bypass zoom.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
. At no point have I violated any rule.

Except you're twisting the rules to fit your interpretation. Evading skimmers? Not only is it violating a rule, it's creating a completely new one. Evade can only be found in the flyer rules. You're applying it to the skimmer rules, and trying to say see it's not there guess it doesn't affect them. You cannot apply Evade to a vehicle other than a flyer. The next step is that a zooming skimmer is the only one that gets the choice to evade, and if you choose to evade you have to apply the negative side of it until the very end. In other words you cannot Evade, then switch to hover mode because you are still in the process of evading and zooming was needed to initiate it. Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

I hate to jump back into this. I believe until the Hover strike rule gets a FAQ people will argue this forever.
However, I take exception to a key part of your argument Lone Dragoon. That part is that a zooming flyer that chooses to evade must continue to zoom. I understand the conclusion you come to parsing three related sentences that cover the rules of evade. However, To quote your own words, " you have to apply the negative side of it until the very end." Well the bolded third sentence from page 81 which you must have memorized by now has the negivtive side listed. The negative side is Snapfire. That's it. Snapfire is what caries into your next turn moving and shooting phase. Granted, you still have jink, it carries too, but so far a flyer is not going to be shot at in its next movement phase. Further, you suggest that if GW wanted a flyer to be able to switch to hover they would have added that to the rule. That is an assumption. I do not know if it is correct, but I do know that in other places on that page they choose to well define when a flyer needs to zoom. For example look at the rule for ongoing reserves. The flyer must zoom back on, can't hover back on. Same is true for the missile/bombing run rule, lets you know which modes can be used. Now look at the third sentence, in BOLD of the evade section, zoom is not listed. Flyer is, but not zoom.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Any prerequisites for abilities have to be maintained through the entire use of the ability in question.

That definitely isn't true. It's really not justified anywhere, in fact. For instance, let's take Counter-Attack. Let's say we have a unit comprised of 10 models without Counter-Attack and one model with it. This unit gets charged and passes its Counter-Attack test. The model with Counter-Attack is then killed by Hammer of Wrath attacks. Does the unit suddenly lose their bonus attacks because it lost the prerequisite for the ability, even though it already took and passed its test? This seems obviously wrong.

In that situation, the unit does lose their counter attack bonus.

I would like to point out that this is a poor example. Only the models in the unit that have the Counter-attack special rule benefit from it. If multiple models in the unit have the rule you only take one test, but only those models that actually have the rule benefit.

Happyjew wrote:
I would like to point out that this is a poor example. Only the models in the unit that have the Counter-attack special rule benefit from it. If multiple models in the unit have the rule you only take one test, but only those models that actually have the rule benefit.

Good point, my mistake.

I have no idea how they intended this to work, and FAQ would be welcome.

However, meantime I'm going to play as Kingsley suggests. That is to me most logical and clear reading of the rules. The requirement of being a 'zooming flyer' seems only apply to initiating of the evade, not to maintaining it. Restrictions are usually pretty clearly spelled out in GW rules. If they intended that evading vehicles must keep zooming on the next turn, they would've said that.

@Crimson: It is your call to play not according to RAW. It is very clear and logical from the other stand-point. And no, restrictions are usually not spelled out in GW rules. If they intend for evading vehicles to just skip the effect, they would've said that.

RAW is unclear, hence the disagreement.

This whole thing hinges on whether being a 'zooming flyer' is a requirement merely for intiating evade, or is it a requirement for maintaining it as well. I think the wording more strongly implies the former, but the rule is far from clear.

I have to disagree. RAW is clear. The exact wording says "until the end of your next turn". If that is unclear regarding the requirement to keep on evading then there is nothing else I can say to reason.

If you read back all 6 pages, most people (except you and Kingsley) agree with the interpretation that: once you choose to evade, you can't turn around and skip the penalty via Hover/Hover Strike.

leohart wrote:
I have to disagree. RAW is clear. The exact wording says "until the end of your next turn". If that is unclear regarding the requirement to keep on evading then there is nothing else I can say to reason.

Yes, you evade until the end of your next turn. No one has disputed that. But evading only has an effect if you're a flyer. There still is not a clear rule that disallows you from ceasing to be a flyer.

The point of this rule is to benefit defensively for an obvious trade off elsewhere. This isnt Magic: The Gathering where every word should be lawyered upon.

thats my two cents

Also, in the BRB it states (pg 4) "If you find that you and your opponent cannot agree on the application of a rule, roll a dice to see whose interpretation will apply for the remainder of the game..."

In all fairness your friend forfeited the chance to apply his/your interpretation of the ruling for the remainder of the game. this should be considered a rule as it is under the heading "The Most Important Rule" (so long as were lawyering things up )

 Crimson wrote:

leohart wrote:
I have to disagree. RAW is clear. The exact wording says "until the end of your next turn". If that is unclear regarding the requirement to keep on evading then there is nothing else I can say to reason.

Yes, you evade until the end of your next turn. No one has disputed that. But evading only has an effect if you're a flyer. There still is not a clear rule that disallows you from ceasing to be a flyer.

....apart fromt eh rule saying you evade for a full turn, and have to be a flyer to evade. If you are not a flyer, you are no longer evading and have broken a rule with no allowance.

It doesn't say you have to be a flyer in order to evade. It only says that you need to be a zooming flyer in order to initiate evading, and that evading only has effects that apply to flyers.