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So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

You never stop being a Flyer. You become a Fast Skimmer, but never cease to be a Flyer. There is no contradiction here.

The model evaded, and so may only Snap Fire next turn.

There is no permission to disregard that.

So when a Storm Talon switches to Hover Strike mode then Templar, is it still hit on 6's? That doesn't seem right. You don't stop being a flyer but gain skimmer status? Seems contradictory.

I dont have my SM Codex on me at the moment. What is the exact wording when you go to Hover Strike?

But you also cant switch modes to ignore the ruling of a previous rule.

Im affraid its pretty much spot on with the final result.

I'd agree with the TO on this one. Can't say I'd be shocked if a GW FAQ later ruled the opposite way though.

Templar, i'd like to know like Yeeman if the Storm Talon stays being a flyer or switches its mode. If it never stops being a flyer, how can it also be a fast skimmer?

Jackal when the Storm Talon switches to Hover Strike, does he stop being a flyer? If so, then jinking only effects flyers and forces flyers to shoot snap shots, not fast skimmers. Why can he not switch modes to ignore the result? He stops being a flyer and becomes a skimmer. Nowhere does it say you can't switch modes to ignore jinking results.

Lobukia, why do you agree? Can you be more specific?

I just dont see that if he switches his mode to skimmer and stops being a flyer how he is still effected by jinking. Can someone cite a rule or something to make me think otherwise?

DE Elder wrote:
So a buddy of mine was in a tournament this past weekend and had what I think is a bad ruling against him. See what you guys think.

So his Storm Talon gets shot the previous turn and he jinks as a flyer. As a flyer, when you jink you have to shoot snap shots the following turn. During his turn he switches to Hover Strike Mode. While in Hover Strike Mode you switch your type from Flyer to Fast Skimmer. he went to fire at BS 5 with all of his weapons at a squad of 3 Tactical marines on an objective. His opponent argued he had to snap fire because he is a flyer and the TO agreed. Long story short, he didnt kill the marines because of BS 1 and lost the game.

Who is right? I think that when you enter Hover Strike Mode, you cease being a flyer and become a fast skimmer for all intents and purposes. So he should have been able to fire at BS 5.

Appreciate the feedback.

You never switch your type. You are always a Flyer. You are simply treated as a Fast Skimmer for purposes of movement, assaults etc. If you "cease" being a Flyer, then you can never switch back from Hover to Zooming as Skimmers do not have that rule.

It is still a flyer, and also acts as a Fast Skimmer.

How would being a Fast Skimmer negate the fact that it Evaded last turn? He still dodged.

It doesnt make sense that he would be both.

So if he stays a flyer, while in Hover Strike he is hit on 6's and cant be assaulted?

Units can have multiple different types/qualities. A Falcon is a Fast Skimmer Tank. Canis Wofborn is an Independent Character and also Cavalry.

A flyer in hover mode is treated like a fast skimmer. But this doesn't magically exempt it from the consequences of Evading.

What wouldn't make sense is a pilot making a series of desperate evasive maneuvers, which interfere with his aim, and then saying "no wait, I'm not a flyer, so those don't count anymore". The rules are designed to represent a situation on the table. The interpretation I'm giving you is my best understanding of the RAW, and it's more more representative of the situation that's supposed to be happening in the game.

Evade forces snap shots the next turn. Even if you lose flier, you're still forced to use snap shots as you evaded last turn.

 Mannahnin wrote:
A flyer in hover mode is treated like a fast skimmer. But this doesn't magically exempt it from the consequences of Evading.

The Storm Talon doesn't enter Hover mode, as it doesn't have the 'Hover' rule, it has 'Hover Strike' instead

Hover Strike specifies that the Storm Talon changes its type to Skimmer until the start of its next movement phase. It doesn't gain Type: Skimmer... It replaces 'Flyer' with 'Skimmer'.


I would say in this case that because Evade is an effect that lasts until your next turn, a Flyer that chooses to Evade would simply be unable to stop Zooming while Evading.

The problem with your Hover Mode logic is that Storm Talons dont have Hover Mode, they have Hover Strike. They are two completely different things.

BRB pg 81, "If a flyer is hovering, it is treated exactly like a Fast Skimmer." It does not say it changes its type nor loses its flyer status, just that it is treated as a fast skimmer.

WD entry for Storm Talon, "At the start of its Movement phase, a Storm Talon can elect to make a special Hover Strike attack. if it does so, it changes its type to skimmer and cannot move, but can pivot on the spot." Here it says that it actually does change its type to skimmer. This makes me believe that it ceases to be a flyer and becomes a skimmer while in Hover Strike.

Unlike Hover Mode, Hover Strike says it "changes its type," Hover only says it is treated exactly like a fast skimmer. There is a big difference here.

Still, if the Talon doesnt lose his flyer status, if he enters Hover Strike, does he still get hit on 6s and cant be assaulted? If the answer is yes, then he would snap fire. if the answer is no, he gets hit on normal BS and can be assaulted, he is not a flyer than. i think the above quote shows that he is no longer a flyer but changes to a skimmer.

My best understanding is he changes his type to fast skimmer, and thus avoids the evade clause that effects flyers only. Evade only effects flyers, and sense he is a fast skimmer, he is not restricted by evading.

@insaniak

I agree with everything until your last part. Why can't they switch modes? It stops being a flyer, so it doesnt have the restriction of Snap Shots.

BRB pg 81 "An evading flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires snap Shots." The Storm Talon stops being an evading flyer and becomes in essence a stationary skimmer. I do believe it replaces its type with "skimmer." In evade, it doesnt say that skimmers shoot snap shots, but flyers. If your not a flyer, how can you be restricted to firing snap shots?

Even with that wording, changing the type would not change the ongoing effect.

The ongoing effect only effects fliers. The Storm Talon is no longer a flyer but a skimmer.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
I agree with everything until your last part. Why can't they switch modes? It stops being a flyer, so it doesnt have the restriction of Snap Shots.

It can't choose to stop being a flier, because it has an ongoing effect that says that it is Evading (which is a specific thing that affects Flier movement) until the start of its next turn.

Where does it say it cant stop being a flyer if it is evading?

It doesn't need to. Evade is a rule that applies specifically to Fliers. If it stops being a Flier, it therefore can't be still Evading... which it has to, until its next turn.

Outlining factors, such as Hover Strike can effect whether it has to still be evading or not. There is no restriction on Hover Strike that says "you cannot enter this mode if you are evading." It just just "At the beginning of the movement pahse..."

The over-arching principle of any ruleset is 'Break No Rule'.


Yes, you have a rule that lets you change your vehicle Type... but if you do so, you are no longer Evading, because Evading only affects Fliers.

You have no option to choose to stop Evading. Evading has to be in effect for your next movement phase. So if you choose to do something that means that you are no longer Evading, you have broken that rule... ergo, you can not choose to take that action.


This is no different from how GW have ruled in the past on, for example, Khorne Berzerkers, who had to assault if possible, and so were forbidden from doing anything in the Movement or Shooting phase that would disallow them from doing so.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
So when a Storm Talon switches to Hover Strike mode then Templar, is it still hit on 6's? That doesn't seem right. You don't stop being a flyer but gain skimmer status? Seems contradictory.

I dont have my SM Codex on me at the moment. What is the exact wording when you go to Hover Strike?

its hit normally.

You must be Zooming to gain Hard to Hit. A flyer that is Hovering or Hover Striking is not zooming.

The option to stop being a flier happens at the beginning of the movement phase. Nothing restricts me from doing that if i am evading anywhere in the BRB, Codex, or WD entry.

You only have evade if you are a flier. Without being a flier, I no longer am evading. You yourself even said that it changes its type and replaces "Flier" with "Skimmer."

How can a skimmer evade? It cant, therefore it cannot be effected by an ability it cannot possess.

SCP Yeeman wrote:
Without being a flier, I no longer am evading. .

...which you have to be, because when you chose to evade, you accepted an effect with a specific timeframe.

This reminds me a lot of the vehicle dmg effects on passengers and the final point with that was that the effect carries through. Changing to hover in order to avoid the snap shots sounds as dumb as models disembarking after a vehicle stunned and call that they are no longer passenger therefore free to shoot.

The unit has gained the effect "only snap fire" for the following turn. It also has a special, which allows it to stop moving and hover in place, increasing BS by 1 and making attacks pinning. Neither disallows the other.

So, the talon in question can hover in place like a skimmer, be shot at with full BS by enemies, gains +1 BS and pinning, and can only snap fire. RAW. simple.

My question is it really this hard to understand your friend was trying to game a rule that specificly states can only fire snaps shots in the next turn. You can't tell me you dont understand DE eldar.

@Lobukia

He doesnt hover in place LIKE a skimmer, he IS a skimmer. There is a difference. He becomes a skimmer, and is no longer a flier.

Read the Evade rule, it does say you snap shot until next turn. However, only Fliers can evade, only fliers are subject to having to snap fire. The Storm Talon is no longer a flier, a requirement you need to evade, and a requirement you need to be to have to snap fire when you evade.

Don't say RAW, because by RAW I am right. You have no RAW quotes or any evidence to back up anything you have said. So no, its not simple.

@Lungpickle

How was he gaming a rule? I have provided quotes and evidence in his favor and you have offered nothing? I want some sort of evidence that refutes what I have said. So far, no quotes or RAW have been presented.

Reread page 81 Lung. Read who has to fire Snap Shots. It will say fliers. Well, if your not a flier, how are you forced to fire snap shots?

No, its becomes a Fast Skimmer.

But it never says it ceases to be a Flyer.

In a permissive ruleset you MUST be told something ends for it to end.

You are never given permission to not be a flyer, therefore you remain a flyer.

DE Elder wrote:
@Lobukia

He doesnt hover in place LIKE a skimmer, he IS a skimmer. There is a difference. He becomes a skimmer, and is no longer a flier.

Read the Evade rule, it does say you snap shot until next turn. However, only Fliers can evade, only fliers are subject to having to snap fire. The Storm Talon is no longer a flier, a requirement you need to evade, and a requirement you need to be to have to snap fire when you evade.

Don't say RAW, because by RAW I am right. You have no RAW quotes or any evidence to back up anything you have said. So no, its not simple.

I'm sorry, I missed the rule where changing types, for any reason any where, allows you to ignore effects
I'm apparently also missing the rule that only flyers that are still zooming suffer evade penalties. The book is actually fairly careful to say "zooming flyer" when its something specific to the zooming flyers (go figure). The evade penalty is to the flyer (model, not a movement type).

That stormtalon is still that stormtalon, and that stormtalon earned an effect until its next turn... changing how you move doesn't lose that, find me a rule that gives permission to lose effects (hint: isn't one) and then you can dance around the RAW pole. Until then, I'm standing right by it while you're just wishing and watching.

Hover Strike doesn't say it becomes a Fast Skimmer, it just becomes a Skimmer. In addition, the wording in the Hover Strike special rule in WD #389 US "changes its type to Skimmer" would be the permission to not be a flyer.