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...and that you have to evade for a full turn. Nowhere is "initiate" used - that is made up

"until the end of your next turn" Is there a qualifier there? Nope.

It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn as long as you're a flyer".
It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn unless you're a skimmer".

It says "until the end of your next turn".

So snap fire until the end of your next turn. This question does not warrant this length of a thread. There is not a shred of evidence that this restriction to only snap fire once applied can be removed by anything like switching flight modes.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
"until the end of your next turn" Is there a qualifier there? Nope.

It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn as long as you're a flyer".
It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn unless you're a skimmer".

It says "until the end of your next turn".

So snap fire until the end of your next turn. This question does not warrant this length of a thread. There is not a shred of evidence that this restriction to only snap fire once applied can be removed by anything like switching flight modes.

The rule says "An Evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots." If you aren't a Flyer, this rule does nothing. If you turn into a Skimmer with Hover Strike, you aren't a Flyer anymore.

Meaning you have broken the rule

aaaaand back round again. Easter egging factor 1000 there.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
"until the end of your next turn" Is there a qualifier there? Nope.

It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn as long as you're a flyer".
It doesn't say "until the end of your next turn unless you're a skimmer".

It says "until the end of your next turn".

So snap fire until the end of your next turn. This question does not warrant this length of a thread. There is not a shred of evidence that this restriction to only snap fire once applied can be removed by anything like switching flight modes.

The rule says "An Evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots." If you aren't a Flyer, this rule does nothing. If you turn into a Skimmer with Hover Strike, you aren't a Flyer anymore.

Again, I do not know how many times I have to post this:

BRB FAQ v1a wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No

Lets look at this clearly.
1. What is Hover Strike? It is a Special Rule for a StormTalon.
2. What does Hover Strike do? It modifies the BS of the model and changes the type and restricts the model to not moving at all.

So now, lets go back to the FAQ.
1. With respect to the FAQ, is Hover Strike a "Special Rule?" YES, it is.
2. With respect to the FAQ, does Hover Strike modify the BS of the Model? YES, it does.

So can switching to Hover Strike remove the Snap Shot restriction applied to the StormTalen after evading in the enemy Shooting phase? No, it can not.


I do believe you can switch to Hover Strike because of the wording of Hover Strike, expressly allows you to choose to.
However it does not give you permission to remove the Snap Shot restriction and that is reiterated by the FAQ.

I'm not 100% convinced that evade prevents Hover Mode/Strike (although that does make he most sense rules-wise).
However there's no way the change (if allowed) would remove the snap shot restriction. It's a set duration that applies to the model.

40k-noob wrote:
I do believe you can switch to Hover Strike because of the wording of Hover Strike, expressly allows you to choose to.
However it does not give you permission to remove the Snap Shot restriction and that is reiterated by the FAQ.

You don't "remove the Snap Shot restriction." The restriction does not apply to you because you are not a Flyer. That's like saying that a unit that is pinned and then rallies via the Imperial Guard Get Back In The Fight! order still has to snap fire because you "can't remove the Snap Shot restriction--" the restriction doesn't apply to the unit at all anymore!

 Kingsley wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I do believe you can switch to Hover Strike because of the wording of Hover Strike, expressly allows you to choose to.
However it does not give you permission to remove the Snap Shot restriction and that is reiterated by the FAQ.

You don't "remove the Snap Shot restriction." The restriction does not apply to you because you are not a Flyer. That's like saying that a unit that is pinned and then rallies via the Imperial Guard Get Back In The Fight! order still has to snap fire because you "can't remove the Snap Shot restriction--" the restriction doesn't apply to the unit at all anymore!

Wow.

Look, if your model has been slapped with the Snap Fire stick then it's BS has been reduced to BS 1.

If you then changed from a "Flyer" to "Skimmer" then what happens to the model's BS? According to you, the Snap Fire rule is removed or disappears.
Then in that case what happens to the model's BS? It reverts or modifies BS of 1 to the model's original BS correct?

Well guess what? That special rule that allows you to change unit type cannot in anyway affect the BS of 1 once the Snap Fire rule has been applied to that model.

That is what the FAQ confirms. That is it, there no other way around it.
Using Hover Strike does not/can not affect the model's BS of 1 applied to it by evading in the previous enemy shooting phase.

40k-noob wrote:
Look, if your model has been slapped with the Snap Fire stick then it's BS has been reduced to BS 1.

If you then changed from a "Flyer" to "Skimmer" then what happens to the model's BS? According to you, the Snap Fire rule is removed or disappears.
Then in that case what happens to the model's BS? It reverts or modifies BS of 1 to the model's original BS correct?

The model is not subject to the Snap Fire rule, so it doesn't Snap Fire. It's not a modifier back to original BS. The rule simply doesn't apply. I notice you haven't even tried to address my example.

The T.O. was correct in his rulling. Simply because he spends less time trying to make a pig fly and rules with logic.

Your example with the guard is close to the same thing only gone to ground is snap fire only, the order to get back in the fight removes the gone to ground status and it says can act normally.

The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

 Kingsley wrote:
I notice you haven't even tried to address my example.

Your example is flawed. Get Back In The Fight removes the Go To Ground status. You've admitted that the Evading status isn't removed.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I notice you haven't even tried to address my example.

Your example is flawed. Get Back In The Fight removes the Go To Ground status. You've admitted that the Evading status isn't removed.

Exactly what Rigid said.

Also "Get Back in the Fight" has been amended in the IG FAQ to make such things clear.

IG FAQ v1.1 wrote:
Page 30 – Company Command Squad, Get Back in the Fight!
Change the second paragraph to:
“This order can only be issued to a unit that is falling back, or has gone to ground. If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back or, if it has currently gone to ground, the effects of going to ground end; this means it no longer has +1 to its cover saving throws and all restrictions incurred by going to ground are cancelled”.

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

 Kingsley wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

The model is still has the flyer special rule so it is still a flyer.

In other words. NO.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

The model is still has the flyer special rule so it is still a flyer.

In other words. NO.

Not true. First of all, Flyer isn't a special rule but rather a type-- second, a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike rule "changes its type to Skimmer" (WD 389, page 66). It is not considered a Flyer for any purpose.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

The model is still has the flyer special rule so it is still a flyer.

In other words. NO.

Not true. First of all, Flyer isn't a special rule but rather a type-- second, a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike rule "changes its type to Skimmer" (WD 389, page 66). It is not considered a Flyer for any purpose.

Which is why you cannot Hover strike, as youy have broken the requirement to Evade for a full turn, as you can no longer c omply with the requirements.

You will continue to ignore the rules showing your position is wrong, however, and we're back round again. n You're easter egging entirely here.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
The evade rule specifically states your in evade mode and snap fireing till the end of your next turn and the rules for the hover strike do not remove them,.because it dosent state you can act normally after evading. That would be gaming the system and I am sure you have more integrity than that.

This is a valid argument, but unfortunately its premises are untrue. The rules do not say that you must snap fire until the end of your next turn. They say that you Evade until the end of your next turn, and then describe the effects of Evading as follows: "An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots."

This is critically different from saying that you may only Snap Fire until the end of your next turn, because you don't have the Snap Fire effect. You have the Evade effect. The Evade effect does nothing to a Skimmer. So if you use Hover Strike, you are still Evading. You look at the Evade rule to see what it does, and see that this has no effect on you because you are not a Flyer. At no point have you removed the Snap Shot restriction, because that restriction stopped applying as soon as you became a Skimmer instead of a Flyer.

The model is still has the flyer special rule so it is still a flyer.

In other words. NO.

Not true. First of all, Flyer isn't a special rule but rather a type-- second, a Stormtalon using the Hover Strike rule "changes its type to Skimmer" (WD 389, page 66). It is not considered a Flyer for any purpose.

"you can choose to evade until the end of your next turn".
So now that you chose to evade for that full amount of time, what rule removes or changes that choice? Nothing.

You see, you had to be a flyer to make that choice and you're now an evading skimmer. So lets say we allow it. Now you're an Evading Skimmer. We have no rules for Evading Skimmers.

Mission accomplished and you can make up rules now right? Nope. The model has jink and may only fire snap shots. Show anything that suggests you can ignore that part where you chose to evade until the end of your next turn.

Where in the rules does Happy Make Up Rules Time begin?

The very best argument you can make is "derp they forgot to mention an evading flyer that turns into an evading skimmer". There's nothing that says you're no longer evading, lose jink and can fire anything except snap shots.

Yes, evaning does not affect skimmers. This does not mean the skimmer can't be evading, it just doesn't affect it in any way.

Consider the fact that a flyer usually cant evade and hover at the same time (only zooming flyers can evade, and hover is done instead of zooming).

Hover strike is essentially a pseudo-hover mode (hence the "hover"), wouldn't it make sense that a Stormtalon making use of evade wouldnt be able to hover (strike) either?

just so everyone under stands, when i said "...hover (strike)" it refers to the hover strike rule. the parentheses are there for emphasis purposes.

There's no winning this argument one way or the other until we get a faq on this. Unfortunately.

Commander Riptide wrote:
Consider the fact that a flyer usually cant evade and hover at the same time (only zooming flyers can evade, and hover is done instead of zooming).

Hover strike is essentially a pseudo-hover mode (hence the "hover"), wouldn't it make sense that a Stormtalon making use of evade wouldnt be able to hover (strike) either?

just so everyone under stands, when i said "...hover (strike)" it refers to the hover strike rule. the parentheses are there for emphasis purposes.

thats it, essentially. Kingsley believes you can break the Evade rule by no longer being a flyer, people who read the Evade rule and note the duration believe you cant break one rule without permission to do so.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, evaning does not affect skimmers. This does not mean the skimmer can't be evading, it just doesn't affect it in any way.

This my friend is the part where you are adding your own idea of what should happen. There is no rule that says "evading does not effect skimmers".

RAW does not say you may modify your previous choice to evade for the full amount of time.

Evading Skimmers not being defined does not excuse you from your choice to take the penalty for the benefit of evading.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Evading Skimmers not being defined does not excuse you from your choice to take the penalty for the benefit of evading.

Um, what? If Evading Skimmers don't have any rule defined for them, claiming they have to follow some other rule is... you guessed it... making up rules.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Evading Skimmers not being defined does not excuse you from your choice to take the penalty for the benefit of evading.

Um, what? If Evading Skimmers don't have any rule defined for them, claiming they have to follow some other rule is... you guessed it... making up rules.

Much like claiming you can break the evade rule when you have no permission to do so.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
Evading Skimmers not being defined does not excuse you from your choice to take the penalty for the benefit of evading.

Um, what? If Evading Skimmers don't have any rule defined for them, claiming they have to follow some other rule is... you guessed it... making up rules.

No I'm not in fact. We're not just reading a book and parsing sentences, but instead we are describing a series of events that happen in 3D.

1. You Flyer we assume is on the table.
2. Your specific flyer, that specific model in front of you Evades and now you have agreed it gets jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of the models following turn.
3. That model becomes an Evading Skimmer.

So at the point in time that you are claiming you're free to use your imagination you have on the table:

At this point in time we have a model that can jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of its following turn.

You turn it into a Skimmer - fine. We have no rules now for Evading Skimmers, but what even suggests that this model may alter the CHOICE to snap fire until the end of it's following turn?
Nothing. Leaving everything as is in the absence of an Evading Skimmer rule you still can not fire normally and alter your choice.

No RAW even hints that you may lift the penalty at this point in the game.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
You Flyer we assume is on the table.
2. Your specific flyer, that specific model in front of you Evades and now you have agreed it gets jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of the models following turn.
3. That model becomes an Evading Skimmer.

Point 2 is where you're wrong. We don't agree that it gets jink and can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn-- we agree that it follows the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn. The Evade rules mean that, if the model is a Flyer, it gets Jink but can only fire Snap Shots. This is a very important difference, because once the model stops being a Flyer, it's not that it stops Evading-- it is still Evading-- but the effects of Evading no longer apply to it, as they are limited to Flyers.

So I do not break my agreement to follow the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn by going into Hover Strike. The Evade effect is still in place. It just doesn't do anything anymore, since it only affects Flyers.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
You Flyer we assume is on the table.
2. Your specific flyer, that specific model in front of you Evades and now you have agreed it gets jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of the models following turn.
3. That model becomes an Evading Skimmer.

Point 2 is where you're wrong. We don't agree that it gets jink and can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn-- we agree that it follows the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn. The Evade rules mean that, if the model is a Flyer, it gets Jink but can only fire Snap Shots. This is a very important difference, because once the model stops being a Flyer, it's not that it stops Evading-- it is still Evading-- but the effects of Evading no longer apply to it, as they are limited to Flyers.

So I do not break my agreement to follow the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn by going into Hover Strike. The Evade effect is still in place. It just doesn't do anything anymore, since it only affects Flyers.

I see what you're saying but I disagree. The order of events is important. Your flyer evades and therefore the model may jink and only snap fire thereafter. The restrictions are not because you're "evading" but because you "evaded when you were a flyer". There is no step where you reevaluate if you are still a flyer.

You chose to evade at a point in the game. You don't get to keep making a choice of course. You're not choosing to evade on your next turn, you evaded, so on your next turn the model has jink and snap shots.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
You Flyer we assume is on the table.
2. Your specific flyer, that specific model in front of you Evades and now you have agreed it gets jink and can only fire snap shots until the end of the models following turn.
3. That model becomes an Evading Skimmer.

Point 2 is where you're wrong. We don't agree that it gets jink and can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn-- we agree that it follows the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn. The Evade rules mean that, if the model is a Flyer, it gets Jink but can only fire Snap Shots. This is a very important difference, because once the model stops being a Flyer, it's not that it stops Evading-- it is still Evading-- but the effects of Evading no longer apply to it, as they are limited to Flyers.

So I do not break my agreement to follow the Evade rules until the end of the model's following turn by going into Hover Strike. The Evade effect is still in place. It just doesn't do anything anymore, since it only affects Flyers.

Wait!?!?
You agree that it is still evading but somehow what Evade does to the model no longer applies?!?!

So EVADE is not EVADE?

What is this Shakespeare?

Nope, just a blatant attempt at easter egging, or more usually "cheating"

You cannot break the evade rule by no longer evading for a full turn, which going into hover / hover strike would do.

Calling people who disagree with you 'cheaters' is not terribly polite.