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A model that is being attacked by three models suffers -1 Dexterity.

i love the idea and logic of it, I just think this would get really hard to keep track of, plus its typically hard to get 3 models BTB when asking about medium to large sized units.

My concern is that if we make combat too picky then it will slow down the game

Agreed, which is why I like just adding a bonus to the whole squad, since its fast and easy to calculate whether or not you qualify. I would argue wounds only being able to be allocated to models you're in BTB with should be the rule, rather than a condition for gang-ups.

However, i definitely think these suggestions could be put in place for attacking independant characters, to make sure people really think about where these models are placed in regards to Melee, to avoid gang-ups and the associated penalties.

Edit: it is too late for me to be evaluating this stuff, disregard this entire post, i like your suggestions.

That edit is gold.

AYE AYE WHAT ABOUT THIS

In a combat between two units, if one unit has more models than the other, that unit gains an amount of extra attacks with the Strike First special rule equal to the difference in models. The player with the larger squad assigns these attacks to models closest to the target first.

Strike First: An attack with this special rule is triggered before any other attacks. If there are multiple models with this special rule, they attack at the same time, but still before any other attacks. A model can only have a maximum of one attack that has the Strike First special rule.


I must admit this isn't a bad idea for once

Maybe, i like the idea of having "initiative" give you a number of attacks before your opponent, but it just seems too complex, and doesn't seem like it would mesh well. I think having special rules create initiative "tiers" somewhat similar to the current system is going to be the simplest method, and prevents us from having to totally rework units that depend on that speed like Genestealers and Keepers of Secrets.
Also means players don't have to roll off to see who goes first each Melee Phase, as they would with the attacks before the opponent system for any attacks over 1

I must admit this isn't a bad idea for once

For once?

I've been thinking of an EXTREMELY radical way to change laser weapons. Will need a LOT of smoothening.

- laser weapons (and beams) get the laser special rule
- they lose damage over distances; lasers bloom (dissipate)
- they do damage in a line, and they lose 1 power if they go through a model

quote wikipedia:

A laser beam or particle beam passing through air can be absorbed or scattered by rain, snow, dust, fog, smoke, or similar visual obstructions that a bullet would easily penetrate. This effect adds to blooming problems and makes the dissipation of energy into the atmosphere worse.

so:

- lasers lose power through smoke and fog

[Techniques to reduce blooming]: using a very short pulse that finishes before blooming interferes, or focusing multiple lasers of relatively low power on a single target.

- weapons with pulse special rule never lose damage to distance or fog and smoke
- multilazers, scatterlazers (?) wtf am I doing

meh



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Edit: Yah I don't really like Initiative at all anymore it's just way to hard to incorporate without making it extremely hard to balance

EDIT:

In a combat between two units, if one unit has more models than the other, a number of the closest models to the target in that unit gain the Strike First special rule equal to the difference in models.

Strike First: A model with this special rule has one of its attacks trigger before other attacks. If there are multiple models with this special rule, their one attack each trigger at the same time, but still before any other attacks.


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So Genestealers would all have the Strike First special rule, meaning one of their attacks each strike first.

Well Genestealers could have the Strike First special rule, so each one gets just one of its attacks before, but not all.

Genestealers rely on having that many high initiative, high WS attacks to take out their opponent before they hit back, since theyre extremely fragile.
Having Lasers be affected like that would be interesting, lets see what can come of such a system. Im just worried that A) itd be way too involved, and B) it would reduce the strength of las cannons, which are the only long-range high damage anti-tank option for a lot of imperial armies.

Not to say that that's a bad thing (since i want the higher-armor vehicles (Particularly Land Raiders) to be much more durable than they are now)

Here are my thoughts on Command.
If we say unit leaders, and independent characters have Commannd Value expressed as a range of command, and a number of re rolls.

Eg
Unit leader -/1
Veteran leader -/2

Low level hero 12"/2

Army leader 24"/3

Special characters 24" to 36", 3 to 5.

Note Command re rolls can be specialized to focus on Assault dice, Ranged Dice , or Comms Dice.
This can be race specific or character specific.

EG these re rolls REPLACE the extra wound /attack the unit leaders get.
WHY restrict a heroes ability to just Close assault.

Commisar Yarrik is an 80 year old supreme tactician.WHY is he made to be a close combat monster.

I would put him as 24" / 4 Comms.(He gets to re roll reserves, air and arty requests , and ANY rally attempts for units within 24"

These simply allow the character to improve the armies performance by giving near by units the chance to re roll failures.


I can not help but think you guys are being heavily influenced by the over complicated development of current 40k.

You seem to be discussing special rules even before you get the game turn and basic resolution methods defined....

I would prefer to simply use Assault values and let the assaults run to conclusion like FoW, rather than add in extra rules for outnumbering etc.

IF you want to produce a HIGHLY DETAILED simulation of modern warfare , then fair enough..
(About 7 or 8 times the amount of game play and detail with a similar amount of pages of rules.)

But I thought we were going for minimal rules maximum game play.(Eg 4 times the tactics of current 40k with half the pages of rules.)

I love the idea of command being used for rerolls, as well as the idea of having them be applicable to Assault, Shooting, or Comms(Kinda feel like another name might suit this aspect better, but that may just be me). I like how you'd represent these aspects on the Statline, but i think 24" might be a bit extreme, nevermind 36". Think about how big a range a Blood Angles Sanguinary Priest's feel no pain bubble feels at only 6". Range(Unit) is probably enough for sergeants/Leaders, 6" for weak HQ/Characters, and 12" for stronger HQ/Characters. Maybe extreme special cases could go up to 18".

Adding a second method by which a Command "Point" could be used would be exciting as well, i don't know what other method could be possible, but I'd like to see that option. Maybe have stuff like disengaging from Melee, overwatch, going to ground, etc take a command point.

I would argue making a "normal" sergeant not get a command re-roll, and make that upgrade to a veteran Sergeant provide that Re-roll would be a greater incentive to take that upgrade, as well as let us price these upgrades more appropriately, as well as show that these Veteran's experience comes into play.

Would people be able to choose where that reroll is applied? Or at least for standard characters/Leaders/etc? I like the idea of giving that choice of when to use it in an activation to the player, plus it'd be easier to show on a Statline without the specialization on it, since you don't need those letters. Plus it would let us give Special Characters excessive amounts of command, but restrict it by giving them special rules that only let them use it in one area.

As to Commissar Yarrick, yes he is an ancient leader, but he also has a huge metal claw instead of an arm, and according to fluff, Imperial Science can keep regular humans alive and kicking for 300-400 years through injections and bionics, so i think applying normal logic to the situation is a lost cause.I do see your point though, and would like to see "Support" Type HQ's get more command to offset their less than stellar combat abilities, or even create a new class of "Command" type HQ/Characters in addition to the "Support" and "Powerful" types.

I would prefer to simply use Assault values and let the assaults run to conclusion like FoW, rather than add in extra rules for outnumbering etc.

I'm not familiar with FoW, can you explain what this means?

But I thought we were going for minimal rules maximum game play.(Eg 4 times the tactics of current 40k with half the pages of rules.)

I agree that simplifying rules and resolutions should be a goal, but i don't have a problem with simple rules that apply to as many typical situations as possible, especially if they help reinforce certain aspects of the game, such as hordes feeling hordish.

You seem to be discussing special rules even before you get the game turn and basic resolution methods defined....

yeah I agree that those should be the first things to worry about, but thinking about what systems will be built around the core is an important part of evaluation too, and if there's an idea, it'd be good to bring up and discuss it right away, rather than potentially forget it and lose a good idea.

I was talking to Rabid and I think it's a good idea to split the game into advanced and basic.

I think Command shouldn't be split. It should be used for COMMAND. Tactics. Strategy. Command shouldn't directly affect assault or ranged fighting, but the core of the fighting.


So for example, a master strategist like Prince Yriel could have a high command value of (10). Whereas a Farseer...isn't really a commander at all, just a squishy priest. So they only get a command of (6). Normal Sergeants would have one more Command than normal people (5). I think, if we gather all the HQs in the game, then make a hierarchy of command to show who is the real boss.

Scout - C3
Marine/Devastator/Biker - C4
Marine Sergeant - C5
Vet Sergeant - C6
Terminator - C6
Honour Guard - C7
Chaplain - C8
Librarian - C9
Captain/Commander - C10
Chapter Master - C11
Primarch - C12

Of course the models with names will have a slightly better everything. (don't make this think I am a SM fanatic, nono just used internet )

Command SHOULD affect reserve rolls. Command DEFINITELY should affect morale/pinned etc.

So maybe your HQs command (if more than one, use the highest) directly affects reserves, and they have fortitude/command increasing bubbles.

MAYBE The highest commands in the army have to roll off to see reserves.

I love the idea of a command point though, perhaps some in-game objectives can interact with the units near them.

if there's an idea, it'd be good to bring up and discuss it right away, rather than potentially forget it and lose a good idea.

too true

Command SHOULD affect reserve rolls. Command DEFINITELY should affect morale/pinned etc.

Not so sure about the reserves roll. I dont like the current system where a unit can or can't come in on a turn randomly. I'm not a tournament player by any stretch, but i don't like randomness, and i think getting tournament players approval by removing randomness would be a great boon. I think something like having a unit come in instead of activating your first unit in an "activation turn" would be better, since you have greater control over these elements, thus having command affect reserve rolls would be irrelevant, since that weak system would be gone.I do agree that Command should affect things like morale and pinning though, i would like to see using a command point to increase the squads Morale by 1 point for a turn be a way to use the system, rather than the flat use the highest leadership value system in place right now, though again i think we'd have to have leaders/characters not have a morale stat and instead have a Command stat.

I think Command shouldn't be split. It should be used for COMMAND. Tactics. Strategy. Command shouldn't directly affect assault or ranged fighting, but the core of the fighting.

i agree, see my idea for having command points affect things like disengaging from combat. However, i would like to see a system like using Scout Sergeant Telion or the Devastators Signum, where the commanding model forfeits their own attacks to instead guide and support a member of their squad, which is how I think having these re-rolls come into play would work. Its not an automatic bonus like mastercrafting, but instead a tactical choice where you sacrifice something to gain an advantage in another area.

And yes, I am something of a marine fan, having played Vanilla Marines, Blood Angels, and finally Grey Knights, which is why I use lots of space marine examples.

I was talking to Rabid and I think it's a good idea to split the game into advanced and basic.

Who is this Rabid and can you get him on this thread, because it sounds like he'd have some great ideas to contribute.

Lol, he's the author of grimdark. He's a bit busy nowadays, not sure if he can contribute like this.

I love the idea of a character sacrificing something in order to gain something Bryan…LOVE it.


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WAWAWAWAWAWAWA

This idea:

To see what turn your reserves come on, roll a D3+1. If your warlord has a command value of 8 or higher, you may reroll.

So all your reserves come at the same time, and you can Peter jeong. Blueplanet ahead. Plan ahead i mean...

Ah ok, yeah that would be awesome but if he's busy don't bother him. Glad to hear that forfeit idea was so well received.

How do you feel about having reserves coming in be a choice instead of activating your first unit every "Activation Turn"? And replacing leader units morale with Command, and all it entails?

Also, i think we need to devote some time to how power weapons will function under this rule set. I know its not crucial, but every time i try to work through a situation or list, i hit that problem, so id like to get a preliminary idea out for it.

How do you feel about Terminator armor increasing Melee Damage by 1, increasing Defense by 2, reducing mobility by 2 or 3 inches, and decreasing stealth by 1, as compared to a Power Armor Space Marine? That would really drive home the big, slow, heavy, durable, hard hitting feel terminator armor is always described as having in the fluff, and since they're probably gonna end up in the rare category on the PRC, i think making them a bit more destructive and durable than they currently are would make them a much more comfortable choice in that PRC slot.

Edit:

I love the idea of a character sacrificing something in order to gain something Bryan…LOVE it.

Bryan?

To see what turn your reserves come on, roll a D3+1. If your warlord has a command value of 8 or higher, you may reroll.

as stated before, i want to make bringing in Reserves (Be it though deep strike, outflank, or walk on) a tactical decision in the hands of the player, rather than a random occurrence you hope for.

And the lasers thing - increase every lasers power by 1 but have them lose 1 Power if over half range. So lasers are buffed to be a bit like meltas. But they lose 2 power through smoke and fog. And lose 3 power when travelling through a model.


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I don't know much about terminators but your changes, I am fully happy with. Loses 2 mobility tho. Power fists are heavy melee weapons, reduce dexterity and mobility by 1. But do tons of damage to compensate3. Also strikes last.


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Yeah but you need to keep some randomness. My idea means you can plan ahead.

Also Bryan is my brother, more autocorrect retardery.

And the lasers thing - increase every lasers power by 1 but have them lose 1 Power if over half range. So lasers are buffed to be a bit like meltas. But they lose 2 power through smoke and fog. And lose 3 power when travelling through a model.

Really interesting idea, could make things like Lascannons ludicrously overpowered and FUN. I particularly like comparing them to meltas, thatd be a cool way of going about it.i think having them lose power if at over half range would be a bit annoying to deal with, but well see.

Unfortunately, the only weapons i know of that are laser weaponry are a few eldar heavy weapons (Maybe, icyfireknight is a much better expert on Eldar than i am), and imperial guardsman las weaponry, and god knows they don't need a nerf. Tau pulse rifles are actually refined plasma weapons if i remember right, so they wouldn't be affected by this.

Edit: lol ok, but why do we need randomness in reserves? All you're doing is taking something that could be a great tactical choice for the player and making it riskier to use without adding a corresponding reward. We could limit it through other means, such as making only a certain number of reserves could enter each game turn, or having units only be able to enter after game turn 1 has ended, that leave that tactical focus in the players control.

Second Edit:

I don't know much about terminators but your changes, I am fully happy with. Loses 2 mobility tho. Power fists are heavy melee weapons, reduce dexterity and mobility by 1. But do tons of damage to compensate3. Also strikes last.

i can work with the dexterity loss, but again, i don't think mobility drops should be a result of weapons, because then you have different units in a squad moving less than others which would be really hard to manage, or frustrating since it slows down the whole squad. Having both a dexterity modifier and last strike might be a bit too much of a nerf to powerfists, but well see what power weapons turn out as, as this distinction could be a deciding factor between the two.

Yeah so you need to move with the slow guy.

I think you still need an element of uncertainty in reserves because anything could happen to them, and otherwise they'll be OP.

Laser weapons, so las, fire prism, all lance weapons, maybe some tau stuff, maybe some necron stuff?

I think you still need an element of uncertainty in reserves because anything could happen to them, and otherwise they'll be OP.

With deep strikes (Maybe outflanks), yes, but thats what scatter distance and mishaps are for. And currently there is no mishap system for normal walk on reserves other than the randomness, and its far from overpowered, so i don't think choosing when they come on would be overpowered. And shouldn't it be our duty as designers to create a system that limits the power of such systems while minimizing randomness, while simultaneously maximizing the control players can exert over their units?

Yeah so you need to move with the slow guy.

I really hate the idea of the whole squad slowing down to meet the speed of one model, because its A) just too big of a disincentive to really expect people to take, and B) slowing a unit down unnecessarily would just be frustratingly deal with.

Laser weapons, so las, fire prism, all lance weapons, maybe some tau stuff, maybe some necron stuff?

I think we need to explore this system more and playtest a bit to determine whether or not this idea will really turn out well, as well as get some exposure to and opinions of all of these weapons before determining whether they should be affected by such a rule.

Well to be honest it can be a bit OP , for example holding a 51 point squad of jetbikes until turn 5 then turboboosting to get that 4 point objective.....

Fine I agree, but one inch off by a heavy weapon is never going to affect coherency.

Simple solution, no turbo-boosting or other special movement ability on entry. That way vehicles can't flat-out on entry, Warp Spiders and Interceptors can't teleport on entry, bikes can't turbo-boost on entry, etc.

More complex topic, do we want standardized game turn limits? Maybe deciding how many turns before turn 1 begins? or stick to the current system?

Im also having some issue dealing with stealth and BS between units. For instance, a space marine at BS 5 with Stealth 4, and a guardsman at BS 3 and Stealth...what? At 3 it doesn't make any sense, at 4 it seems like it would be repetitive, and at 5 he'd be competing with units that are meant to be more stealth focused. So is 4 going to be the default infantry stealth score, sorta? With scout/stealthy/agile units being 5s and 6s? And very large cumbersome loud units being 3's? Maybe have Monsters at 2, and large tanks like land raiders, Leman Russ', and monoliths at 1? Maybe have smaller vehicles like rhinos and chimeras as well as the heavy skimmer tanks at 2s, and vehicles like land speeders and other light skimmers at 3s as well?

Of course dude, 90% of infantry get S4, then around that.
As for the reserves, if you make it so you can literally hold back your army however you want, prepare for some Having them come on at turn 2 to 4 with rerolls most of the time, that's ok.


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I've done some tablehammer, for reserves ,

The chances of you getting the turn you want is 5/9. Not bad, but not reliable. The chances of you getting anything but turn 4 (if you don't want turn 4) is 8/9. Very low chance of disaster - your reserves have been intercepted.

To be honest that's as balanced as it gets.

As for the reserves, if you make it so you can literally hold back your army however you want, prepare for some Having them come on at turn 2 to 4 with rerolls most of the time, that's ok.

what?

The chances of you getting the turn you want is 5/9. Not bad, but not reliable. The chances of you getting anything but turn 4 (if you don't want turn 4) is 8/9. Very low chance of disaster - your reserves have been intercepted.

But what if i wanted this one squad to come in on turn 2, and they get delayed until turn 4? All the ways i could have used that unit are now gone, because the dice didn't favor me.

My point is, if you're going to weaken a system or choice (Be it through adding randomness, limitations, whatever) you need to make sure there is an appropriate reward alongside that weakness. For things like deep strike, this is very well represented, since your unit can mishap, potentially losing them all together, and they can scatter off of where you want them, however, as a reward for taking this risk, that unit doesn't have to handle being shot at while crossing the board, and can land right where you want them to be. Outflank is done similarly too, since there's a chance of your unit winding up on the opposite side of the board from where you want, but if they get the side you want, they don't have to cross the board and deal with being shot at.

Edit: ah ok now i see, the icon was small and distorted on my screen, i couldn't see what it was. And I don't think anyone's ever felt that having units come on the field in smaller numbers without the support of the entire army is cheesy.

Prepare for some ? Cheese?


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Does the icon not work for you -_-


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Ok,

I completely agree with you, I overlooked the compensation. I would like to keep that idea - can you think of any ways to compensate for the SLIGHT randomness?

It doesn't feel like slight randomness when the dice get in the way of your plan, but i know what you mean. And I have no idea on how to compensate for that randomness on walk-on reserves.

Id still like to come up with some early idea of what a power weapon is, so i can start playing around with that and feel it out. Id say something like add 2 strength/Damage to the wielder, but that makes it feel a bit more like a relic blade or powerfists than a power weapon, and has the unexpected side effect of possibly giving the wielder greater ability to wound a Monster, which also doesn't really feel right. Something like add D3 damage would make it feel too much like a chaos weapon, and be frustrating to deal with in large numbers, so im completely lost for ideas

It is slight randomness. It's just like seizing the initiative but 50% less likely! You have to take into account that anything could happen to those reserves. It's just wrong if you're able to keep whatever you want off the board and then walk them on with no penalty whenever you want.

It's hardly as much randomness as you say :/

As for power weapons if we use the weapon types idea, they'd get +1 Power and piercing/force???

Power weapons are obsolete. Replace them with something that actually fits our system.

It's just wrong if you're able to keep whatever you want off the board and then walk them on with no penalty whenever you want.

The penalty is inherent to the choice to keep them off the board. If they're not on the board, they're not attacking the enemy, they're not taking fire (thus keeping shots off of other targets), and they're not closing on the enemy, meaning that there are less turns in the game when they begin to close for Melee. The advantage you are getting is saving them from getting obliterated early, at the expense of them not benefiting your army until they enter, and having less game turns with which to have an effect..

Power weapons are obsolete. Replace them with something that actually fits our system.

I agree, the idea of them being auto-armor-penetrators is over, but i think the idea of an improved Close Combat Weapon is alive and kicking, we just need an idea of how to implement them.

As for power weapons if we use the weapon types idea, they'd get +1 Power and piercing/force???

What does Piercing/Force do? sounds like a cool idea from the name.

It's hardly as much randomness as you say :/

It does'nt have to be a large amount of randomness to mess your plan up, all it takes is 1 or 2 bad rolls, and your plan fall to pieces. You hear battlereports of people putting their monoliths into reserves to deep strike them, then they roll badly and get delayed until turn 5, when they're much less useful than they would have been otherwise, and thats a 200+ point model.

If we're going to have reserves and deep strike and outflank, they should be strategic / tactical choices the player can control, within reason of course. The alternative is that players cant depend on or plan around the random chance, and avoid the choices, especially if we're talking about 200+ point units, where you cant just have that big a chunk of your army not come into play, which is what we see in the game today.

Well my counter-argument is that if you let a bad roll ruin your ENTIRE plan then a) wasn't a very good plan and b) you shouldn't have taken a risk if your plan was so frail.

Piercing would probably affect normal physical armour, while Force does some sort of impact concussive treatment, but I don't know until we've finalised the armor/weapon type stuff.


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Maybe everyone can have an armour type: metal, substitute for power armour, flak, wraithbone..

Alternatively there can be flesh, metal, wraithbone ???

Bad ideas, bad ideas everywhere..

Maybe everyone can have an armour type: metal, substitute for power armour, flak, wraithbone..
Alternatively there can be flesh, metal, wraithbone ???
Bad ideas, bad ideas everywhere..

Lol, yes WAAAY to micro, but cool idea. Not sure we'll be able to get anything from it.

And i'm all for the idea of random chance affecting gameplay, but i don't want it affecting core elements of the game, like charge distances, run distances, and reserves. Those should be elements the player can depend upon, and plan around accordingly, not hope they work in their favor when they need it, otherwise you're just limiting the tools they can depend on, and thus the tactics they are willing to use.

The player CAN depend on their reserves coming roughly when they want. 1/9 chance is very little. However, that TINY risk is MANDATORY to stop people from abusing their reserve powers. People should be punished if they depend too much on their reserves. Don't you agree?

No because there are so many better ways to restrict the power of reserves than saying that there's a chance they wont come in when you need / want them. Reserve entry limits per game turn, limits per activation turn, etc make sure the system is reliable and ensures tactical control remains with the player without being too powerful. I can guarantee there are other ideas floating about on the internet that would similarly restrict the system without randomizing it, regardless of how little random there is.

Reserves should be an add-on, not an auto-take. Otherwise people will just abuse it. Keeping half your army in reserve? Cheese stall (pun?). And chance is THE CORE ELEMENT. I softened the uncertainty here, but I object to it being removed completely. It's just as frustrating for the opponent if he's being manipulated simply because someone abused their straightforward, point and click reserves.


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Edit: I don't want reserves coming on one at a time.

I think you're seriously overestimating the randomness of that idea. D3, rerolls? Comes on latest turn 4 (its exactly the same probability as current reserves, 1/9), and you shouldn't let your strategy be so reliant on a privilege rule.




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On another point reserves shouldn't be 100% yep they can come on now ok good now you ok my strategy is coming together cheese.

Wanna emphasise on the reality part, 1/9 is FINE to give the extra risk-reward. (think reward, tactical superiority) And the fact that again, anything can happen to those reserves.


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I'm sleeping soon, debate with you tomorrow .


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Now that I know you are a Marines guy I'll figure out some stats for some models - terminators will automatically get the changes you proposed and terminator armour upgrades will modify the user's stats.

Could you post the statlines for space marine stuff?

people will just abuse it. Keeping half your army in reserve? Cheese stall (pun?)

If half your army is in reserves then that means that the opponent has 100% of their strength deployed against 50% of yours, until all the rest of your units come into play, which at 50% of your army, is probably going to take at least 2 game turns. That's 2 turns for them to annihilate your units since there are less targets for fire to be split between, and less models to be killed and hit back in Melee.

Reserves should be an add-on, not an auto-take.

This argument doesn't even really make sense to me, since the same could be said of running. "Why would you ever NOT run? you can move 150% of your mobility in one activation". "Yes, but you can't shoot and run in the same activation, and heavy weapons are weakened, if capable of firing at all." For every unit taken off the table, thats one less unit to shoot at the enemy, to move towards the enemy, to draw fire, and to make them think about what the biggest threat is, and what decisions they need to make. That is its own punishment for putting a unit in reserves, all by itself. Add on top of that systems like not being able to Run, Teleport, Turbo-Boost, Flat-Out, etc and suddenly you just lost not only a turn of moving and shooting, but now you have to wait another turn for them to advance closer to the frontlines.

The chances of you getting the turn you want is 5/9. Not bad, but not reliable. The chances of you getting anything but turn 4 (if you don't want turn 4) is 8/9. Very low chance of disaster

Wanna emphasise on the reality part, 1/9 is FINE to give the extra risk-reward. (think reward, tactical superiority) And the fact that again, anything can happen to those reserves.

It's actually only a 5/9 chance that i get them when i want them. And it doesn't help me if i wanted my unit a game turn ago, or next game turn if they're coming in now.

And let's not forget, the system i suggested isn't like the current one where you put reserves down, then go about the phases like they've always been there. They're coming in as part of your activation turn, in fact replacing the first unit activation you would get for that actication turn, potentially the only activation you get that activation turn. That means that the opponent is going to have a chance to retaliate against them immediately. It will help create this Meta-Game situation where you are trying to work your unit activations so that your unit can come in when its most advantageous to you, while your opponent is thinking about what you could be bringing out of reserves, and what units to save towards the end of the turn so that they can hit back before you can have too much of an effect.

And i honestly can't imagine what kind of cheese you think this situation could create. That i'm going to go hide out of LoS, waiting for my units to come in piecemeal on my board edge, while my enemy advances towards me without me shooting at them or advancing myself? Or that i'm going to sit still on my board edge, waiting for them to advance, until they're close enough that i can bring some melee units out of reserves that cant charge them or move quickly upon entry anyways, that would have been taking fire instead of the non-assault units had they been on the table? That those Deep Strike units are going to drop into the middle of my army, and get one shooting phase, and not be able to move or assault, then get cut down and assaulted by my units?

Edit: I don't want reserves coming on one at a time.

Are you suggesting that all reserved units come on all at once?

Now that I know you are a Marines guy I'll figure out some stats for some models - terminators will automatically get the changes you proposed and terminator armour upgrades will modify the user's stats.
Could you post the statlines for space marine stuff?

Much obliged, and currently i think a regular space marine is gonna be
WS == 5
BS == 5
Stealth == 4
Strength == 5
Wounds == 1
Defense == 5
Morale == whatever we work out for this system
Attacks == 1
Mobility == 6"

Terminators are gonna be (with Terminator Armor Bonus / Penalty already included) (+1 to WS and BS is due to veteran status)
WS == 6
BS == 6
Stealth == 3
Strength == 6
Wounds == 1
Defense == 7
Morale == Regular Space Marine Morale +1
Attacks == 2
Mobility == 4"

Scout Marines would be (show that they are in training, and much less tough and powerful without their Power Armor, and their role as scouts and stealth operatives)
WS == 4
BS == 4
Stealth == 5
Strength == 4
Wounds == 1
Defense == 4
Morale == Regular Space Marine Morale -1
Attacks == 1
Mobility == 8"

I've got more, but ill work up a more formalized spreadsheet to post. I cant post the exact stats since i really dont feel like getting in a tangle with GW's legal department, so ill post the what they should roughly be in the new system, before we start making and further changes to them.

You're trying to argue that reserves are stupid anyway because your units aren't on the board? There is a reason people use reserves. To benefit themselves. They wouldn't do it if they wanted their unit on the board doing stuff. All the punishment you said is null because people would only put their units in reserve if they wanted to net some advantage. Not drawing fire? Good. One less unit to shoot and move towards the enemy? Didn't want it to.

And you didn't say anything about the REALITY of it. For the third time, anything could happen to those reserves. It's not real that 100% of the time you direct your units on the table whenever you want. That's not realistic.

I want a third of the army able to be reserved, then they all come on the turn specified before the game. That way both sides can plan for 500 point reinforcement. I want that feel of reinforcements, not one by one..

It's getting a bit heated, I know there's flaws in my argument but I still want there to be SOME uncertainty and risk for those that are willing to use a strategic mechanic in their plan. One should plan proportionately to the chances. 1/9 chance that your reinforcements are delayed - not can you plan ahead to suit your strategy. And if you aren't willing to take the risk, or your strategy relies too much on it then don't put them in reserve. Think about the reality, again.

Also what do you say to making SM 7" movement? I heard in the fluff their armour helps them move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Could you give me the current stats for the space marine stuff i listed a few comments ago? If we figure that out, we can build everything else off that.