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Im not trying to say that reserving units is stupid, far from it, since keeping those units out of harms way is a great advantage. But choosing to do so has penalties already included in it that affect every other unit in your army. I've heard the idea of having reserves actually play out as reserves before like you've described, and while im not a fan, i think its a solid system, i just prefer something a little more involved.

And yes anything could happen to those reserves, but if they're just walking onto the field, i think having a chance of something go wrong just feels like busywork and unnecessary difficulty.

As for making Space Marines 7" move instead of 6", yes their armor is meant to help them push through brush and things, and makes them taller which lengthens their stride, but im not sure it merits an increase in mobility. I'd still rather reserve mobility increases of units that are inherently faster than normal, such as scout units like Pathfinders and Scout Marines, Hormagaunts and Genestealers, etc.

How would you feel about instead of going about demonstrating Power Weapons as armor piercers, they improve WS to show their level of craftsmanship? Perhaps on top of a slight strength/damage bonus. This could then be expanded to show the master worksmanship of relic blades and other "super" power weapons, as well as their additional strength/damage. This wouldn't replace master crafting though, which would still provide the reroll.

Edit: which space marine stuff? I can't find which ones you're talking about. Weapons, units, armor, vehicles?

It's far from "busywork and unnecessary difficulty". It's representing what might happen in a real life situation - loss of communication, ambushed by prince yriel, tyranid attack, ork waagh on the reinforcements' position...Presuming you want to reserve things, if you were to be allowed to do it for a tactical advantage and not have to take a risk, then it's unbalanced - people would always take the liberty of using reserves if it benefited them.

It's a good start, having special weapons improve your stats. Perhaps a slim sword gives the user +1 Dexterity but -1 Power for being lightweight. Contrastingly an axe would give +2 Power but -2 Dexterity. Maybe some psychic swords can interact with Safeguard rolls.

But to expand further I need help on the weapon types idea. I'm thinking of two types: Kinetic and Energy. Kinetic is anything physical - bullets, bombs, missiles, shurikens. Energy is everything else - melta, plasma, pulse, laser etc.

Here, got the SM reference sheet pdf:

........................................M..Mk.S...P..R...D...A...V...F..C...Type
Scout...............................7...4...5...5...4...4...1...1...4...3...
Space Marine...................6...5...4...5...5...5...1...1...5...4...
Sergeant..........................6...5...4...5...5...5...2...1...6...5...
Terminator.......................4...5...3...6...7...4...2...1...6...4
Honour Guard...................6...5...4...5...6...5...2...1...7...6...
Chapter Champion...........6...5...4...5...6...6...3...1...8...7...
Chaplain...........................6...5...4...5...5...6...3...2...8...8...
Librarian...........................6...5...4...5...5...6...3...2...8...8...
Captain............................6...6...4...6...5...7...3...3...9...9...
Chapter Master................6...6...4...6...5...7...3...3...9...9...

Should I move Dexterity to before Marksmanship? Or maybe before Power? Or is it good where it is.

What do you think bikes should do? Imo, for normal bikes: +6 Mobility, +1 Stealth, +1 Vitality. For Eldar jetbikes: +8 Mobility, +2 Stealth, +1 Vitality. This is because I don't think its realistic that bikes increase the riders toughness. I swapped it for another wound to simulate the bike blocking a hit or something.

Thinking about Fortitude, a morale test could be a Fortitude test with negative modifiers depending on how many comrades are being lost, or something like that. As for psychic powers, I'd say firstly the psyker takes a psychic test - a Fortitude test. -1 Fortitude for every psyker the opponent has on the field. If failed, psyker takes D3 S4 hits. If passed, and the psychic power was directed at an enemy unit, the unit may roll To Negate the psychic power. The target's controlling player compares its Fortitude with the attacking psyker's Fortitude. The target unit gains +1 Fortitude for every friendly psyker within 6".




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Also, since the damage resolution is now only 2 steps, I am worried that things will die to easily.

Do you think I should raise the Stealth by 1 for everything? Or lower everyones Marksmanship.


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Another idea popping into my head while your away:

Do you think we should lower the armour values of vehicles but compensate with more Hull Points?

Rabid:

The plan I had been going with was to move everything to the 0-10 stat range. If we move into the 11+ category stats begin to lose some of their meaning. Suddenly terminator armor that would be a 5 by your system would be trivial compared to a trukk. Terminator armor is better than a trukk’s.

I had never though about that. Are you willing to not have any stats go above 10, even vehicle stats? To compensate, vehicles will get more Hull Points, and perhaps make it harder to explode.

It's a good start, having special weapons improve your stats. Perhaps a slim sword gives the user +1 Dexterity but -1 Power for being lightweight. Contrastingly an axe would give +2 Power but -2 Dexterity. Maybe some psychic swords can interact with Safeguard rolls.

Glad to hear you're on board. Good ideas on differentiating power axes and powers swords like that, with axes having high damage low dexterity. What do you mean a slim sword? Because id rather just have the typical "power sword" be +1 dexterity, +1 damage or something like that, since they're just better made versions of a normal weapon, with that nasty power field around it.

But to expand further I need help on the weapon types idea. I'm thinking of two types: Kinetic and Energy. Kinetic is anything physical - bullets, bombs, missiles, shurikens. Energy is everything else - melta, plasma, pulse, laser etc.

what did you have in mind for this distinction?

Should I move Dexterity to before Marksmanship? Or maybe before Power? Or is it good where it is.
What do you think bikes should do? Imo, for normal bikes: +6 Mobility, +1 Stealth, +1 Vitality. For Eldar jetbikes: +8 Mobility, +2 Stealth, +1 Vitality. This is because I don't think its realistic that bikes increase the riders toughness. I swapped it for another wound to simulate the bike blocking a hit or something.

I'd say put mobility at the end of the Statline, it just feels a bit odd having it near the front. beyond that, lets not worry about where things are on a Statline before worrying whats on it. And I don't think a bike would increase the riders "wounds", that would be hard to balance without massive point increases and raising toughness makes some sense, since there's a big chunk of metal between you and whoever is firing at you, its essentially pseudo-heavy-cover you carry on you. Beyond that, i like the increase in mobility you had for both examples, as well as the stealth increase.

I don't really think the current Psychic Power system needs to be changed, since it works in a believable and straightforward manner, but having nearby Psykers give squads a bonus for their "abhor the witch" would be cool, but dangerous since eldar would be EXTREMELY hard to affect. I would like to see this fortitude roll off idea in some sort of Psyker-Duel idea, where rather than attacking or casting powers, its a duel of the minds, and would let them cause wounds without a save allowed, maybe even instant death in rare cases, and their mastery level is their number of attacks in this system.

Also, since the damage resolution is now only 2 steps, I am worried that things will die to easily.
Do you think I should raise the Stealth by 1 for everything? Or lower everyones Marksmanship.

thats just going to come with the territory if you take out a resolution step. I'd say for now we let it be, but keep an eye on it to make sure they don't die off too quickly. If it feels like things are dying too often, we come back and rework things to fix it. Ideally, systems like the more reliable cover system, modifiers for various things, etc would help relieve some of this, but we'll see.

The plan I had been going with was to move everything to the 0-10 stat range. If we move into the 11+ category stats begin to lose some of their meaning. Suddenly terminator armor that would be a 5 by your system would be trivial compared to a trukk. Terminator armor is better than a trukk’s.

I had never though about that. Are you willing to not have any stats go above 10, even vehicle stats? To compensate, vehicles will get more Hull Points, and perhaps make it harder to explode.

its not a bad idea, but im afraid then almost any weapon would be able to wound those vehicles, especially since we made their stealth values so low. With a D6, space Maine Bolters could penetrate a land raider at armor 10, which would be annoying, and keeping track of a large number of hit points would be frustrating. Moving on, how do monsters fit into this? Suddenly they would need tons of wounds too. Not to mention that if we use a 1-10 scale, we can't have troop stats extend from 0 to 6, since we need those high values for characters, HQs, and high-strength weapons.

Edit: as to your space marine statlines, i would argue veteran units ( regular veterans, terminators, veteran sergeants, honor guard) should have 6 BS,since theyre going to be much more restricted than they currently are, and should have a BS increase to show their experience. This would also be the default BS for units like chaplains, techmarines, and librarians as well, while captains, chapter masters, and masters of the forge would have BS 7. This would give the strong shooters at BS 7 the ability to be hitting on 2s vs normal infantry at stealth 4, while the lower ones at BS 6 would only be able to hit that 2+ against units at lower than average stealth (3 or less) which feels right. This kinda gets back to my idea that i always felt that there needed to be values between 3 and 4, and 4 and 5 in standard 40K, which is what the values of 4 and 6 accomplish on this new scale.

Mhm, but we have to make sure that we price power swords correctly (20 points or so) if we're gonna have it like that - jeez that will help in combat a lot! Is there any way we can make each power weapon distinct instead of them just giving a different P/D modifier each time?

I have a lot on my mind for the distinction, but I can't express it to you since its so convoluted. I was wondering if I could get your unmodified ideas/opinion on it first.

What are you thinking for the Bolter vs. Land Raider thing? Unless we are still using the current vehicle damage system If you don't want more HP, then how are you going to assure that Terminator armour is indeed better than a Trukks?


Actually normal infantry is supposed to be in the 3-5 range. Rare cases go to 2 and 6.

If we make special stuff in the 6-8 range, with outliers at 5 and 9/10.

(I didn't even put veterans on there lol)

........................................M..Mk.S...P..R...D...A...V...F..C...Type
Scout...............................7...4...5...5...4...4...1...1...4...3...
Space Marine...................6...5...4...5...5...5...1...1...5...4...
Sergeant..........................6...5...4...5...5...5...2...1...6...5...
Veteran............................6...6...4...5...5...6...2...1...6...5...
Vet. Sergeant...................6...6...4...5...5...6...2...1...7...6
Techmarine......................5...5...3...5...7...4...2...1...5...4
Terminator.......................4...5...3...6...7...4...2...1...6...5...
Honour Guard...................6...5...4...5...6...5...2...1...7...6...
Chapter Champion...........6...5...4...5...6...6...3...1...8...7...
Chaplain...........................6...6...4...5...5...6...3...2...8...8...
Librarian...........................6...6...4...5...5...6...3...2...8...8...
Master of the Forge.........5...7...3...5...7...6...3...2...8...8...
Captain............................6...7...4...6...5...7...3...3...9...9...
Chapter Master................6...7...4...6...5...7...3...3...9...9...
Primarch..........................6...9...4...6...6...9...4...4..10.10..

I don't know what these Techmarine things are, I just see a bunch of machine arms on them and stat them appropriately (easier to hit, slower, beefier, another attack from the arm?).

EDIT: Vehicles going from 7-9, with rare cases at 10?

............................................................[Armour]
..........................................M..Mk.S...[Fr..Sd..Rr]..HP...Type
Dreadnought.......................5...5...3....8....8....7.....4....
Drop Pod............................0...5...1....8....8....8.....5....
Land Raider.......................5...5...1....10..10..10....7....
Land Speeder...................13...5...4....7....7....7.....4....
Predator.............................6...5...2....9....8....7.....5....
Rhino..................................6...5...2....8....8....7....5....



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............HQ.............................................................
.............||...............................................................
==============......===========......................
||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||......=============
||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||===||...Elite...Elite...||
||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||......=============
||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||===||...Elite...Elite...||
||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||......=============
||...Core...Core...||===||...Support...||===||...Elite...Elite...||
============================================

Ahahaha this came out better than I expected - so how does it look? Mandatory 1 HQ 2 Core, then each 2 Core unlocks 1 Support, and each 2 Support unlocks 2 Elite. This means that you need a decent army of 1 HQ, 4 Core and 2 Support before you're even able to get Elite!

Orange - 500 points mandatory
White + orange - 1000 points mandatory
Olive + white + orange - 1500 points mandatory
Violet + olive + white + orange - 2000 points mandatory
Grey - Optional

Mhm, but we have to make sure that we price power swords correctly (20 points or so) if we're gonna have it like that - jeez that will help in combat a lot! Is there any way we can make each power weapon distinct instead of them just giving a different P/D modifier each time?

idk, at 15 points per model on a Space Marine they feel about right, its the price of a normal model. As for further differentiations, without excessive special rules this is probably all we can provide for them. It has lots of room for differentiation though, so lets see. Plus, that +1 to WS will be valuable, but only up to a point. Btw are we using the universal resolution chart for damage vs defense? Or a slightly modified comparison chart, because the main chart just doesn't feel right for that situation.

What are you thinking for the Bolter vs. Land Raider thing? Unless we are still using the current vehicle damage system If you don't want more HP, then how are you going to assure that Terminator armour is indeed better than a Trukks?

i agree the current system has its flaws, but i like them being able to ignore small arms fire, and be able to have things like weapon destroyed, wrecked, exploded, etc. we can work on finding another way to implement these ideas though, i just dont like the massive Hitpoints direction, itd just be hard to keep track of. As for making a terminator harder than a trukk, i have no idea. It might just have to be a casualty of the system, but im open to suggestions.

I don't know what these Techmarine things are, I just see a bunch of machine arms on them and stat them appropriately (easier to hit, slower, beefier, another attack from the arm?).

yeah that's the idea, for the most part. Each arm is essentially another arm wielding a thunderhammer, with upgraded version having extra arms, and some special guns on two of them. They have 2+ armor, and can repair vehicles. That's a tech marine in a nutshell.

I have a lot on my mind for the distinction, but I can't express it to you since its so convoluted. I was wondering if I could get your unmodified ideas/opinion on it first.

id think something like your laser weapon idea expanded to all energy weapons, with kinetic weapons firing like normal would be a good direction. Go ahead and say your ideas, no matter how convoluted, we can't polish them if theyre not said.

Edit: I.LOVE.THAT.CHART.
The idea of points limit mandatory increases is good, i like it

Btw are we using the universal resolution chart for damage vs defense?

It's universal for a reason

As for high HP, it's not THAT hard to keep track of...At maximum 7 HP of a Land Raider, you can fit it into one die, it's no different to now really....

id think something like your laser weapon idea expanded to all energy weapons

I think this would be good on melta weapons, but not plasma. Imperial plasma weapons fire a ball of plasma surrounded by a magnetic field to stop it from dispersing, so it's not the same sort of thing.

Go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon while I have breakfast


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Edit: LOL!

As for high HP, it's not THAT hard to keep track of...At maximum 7 HP of a Land Raider, you can fit it into one die, it's no different to now really...

yeah but with a D6, a Bolter at Damage 5, will be taking a Hitpoint on anything armor 9 or less on a roll of 6, which means vehicles are going to be made out of tissue paper, even more so since their stealth values will be so low. And Im not sure i like the universal chart applied to damage vs defense, but ill playtest some and see.

id think something like your laser weapon idea expanded to all energy weapons
I think this would be good on melta weapons, but not plasma. Imperial plasma weapons fire a ball of plasma surrounded by a magnetic field to stop it from dispersing, so it's not the same sort of thing.

I agree that it should apply to Melta, but this was just the first idea that sprang to mind, id like to know your ideas so we can hammer this out into something worthwhile.

No Bolters are Damage 4 silly

And it has to be applied to damage and defense, that's a must. Then we mould it.

Damage 4? I think it'd be kinda insane for them to be weaker than a space marine punching something.

Edit: nvm retread the chart. Why not just have space marines at strength 5? That would let us open up a stat for things between space marines and guardsman in strength, things like orks, tyranid gaunts, etc, while not actually altering the rolls for anything, as well as firming up the space marine at 5 for every stat.

which means vehicles are going to be made out of tissue paper, even more so since their stealth values will be so low

Ok - so:

AV10 = AV14
AV9 = AV13/12
AV8 = AV11
AV7 = AV10

Bolters will only ever damage vehicles on a 6+, and even then they'll have 4/5 HP.

Shall we say Melta weapons are P8 but gain 1 Power if within half range? 40k Wiki says: "Melta Weapons have a short range but are very powerful and their thermal blast's intensity increases as the distance to the target decreases." Apparently they are plasma weapons, but I don't want them to function like it.

............................................Rg...P...A...Type
Lasgun.................................24...4...1...Laser
Lascannon...........................48...9...1...Laser
Meltagun..............................12...9...1...Plasma
Plasma gun..........................24...7...1...Plasma
Starcannon..........................36...7...2...Plasma

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Rav1rn wrote:
Damage 4? I think it'd be kinda insane for them to be weaker than a space marine punching something.

Edit: nvm retread the chart. Why not just have space marines at strength 5? That would let us open up a stat for things between space marines and guardsman in strength, things like orks, tyranid gaunts, etc, while not actually altering the rolls for anything, as well as firming up the space marine at 5 for every stat.

What crack are you on Space Marines are P5

........................................M..Mk.S...P..R...D...A...V...F..C...Type
Space Marine...................6...5...4...5...5...5...1...1...5...4...
Ork Boy............................6...2...4...5...4...4...1...1...3...4...
Hormagaunt......................7...3...4...4...3...4...2...1...3...4...
Imperial Guardsman..........6...4...4...3...3...4...1...1...4...4...


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If you're really into the 5s, 5s everywhere, then we can do that, but then we have to raise command and stealth to average 5, then bearing in mind they'll be M5 which doesn't reflect their power armour.

Bolters will only ever damage vehicles on a 6+, and even then they'll have 4/5 HP.

Yeah, until they have 20+ of them being shot at them. 1 Grey Knight Strike Squad could wipe out almost any non-heavy vehicles, especially with lower stealth values, even before you bring the amazing psycannons into play.

If you're really into the 5s, 5s everywhere, then we can do that, but then we have to raise command and stealth to average 5, then bearing in mind they'll be M5 which doesn't reflect their power armour.

Why? If we leave the average stealth at 4, then space marines will be hitting most units on 3's which fits what the current system plays as, while BS 4 will be hitting stealth 4 on a 4, which also reflects the current system. Also, i don't mean mobility 5, i still would rather avoid differences of 1, so leave their mobility at 6 I still say we leave command as a stat to leaders/HQ's/Characters and use the system and notation that Lanrak brought up a while ago.

Shall we say Melta weapons are P8 but gain 1 Power if within half range?

Feels a bit weak for Melta. I'd Prefer something more along the lines of them being Damage 8 or so, and receive an extra D3 Damage at half range. Far from a finalized concept, but a starting point.

Second Edit: Jeez i am stuck in the old system. Ok, since the shooter is no longer rolling for penetration, something like damage 8, they gain +2 damage for being at half range would be ok, but if prefer something a little more unique for them. What do you have in mind for plasma weapons and all that good stuff?

Also, just for the sake of keeping everything straight and easy to read, can we keep to WS, BS, Strength, Defense, Stealth, Wounds, Morale, Command, Damage, and Attacks, and avoid using other terms? Having to juggle these different values is starting to get out of hand. We can always deal with the new terms towards the end, but for the sake of record keeping, can we stick to these?

Im attaching a spreadsheet of what i think most of the troop units would look like using the new values. Of course still open to reworking, and i made some changes that i felt would make much more sense, such as shuriken catapults having 2 shots instead of 1, since they are described as firing 100's of rounds per pull of the trigger. I even tried adding in some of Lanrak's range modification due to unit BS idea on some of them, but lets see how that works out.

Edit: Whoops left out mobility as a stat. I'll come back to that later though, this should just give a rough idea of general combat strength.

20 bolters, or 20 bolter rounds? because if it's 20 bolter rounds, that's only ~3 wounds.

But like I said, since things will die much quicker now, having Stealth as 5 is a balance. Also you want a SM statline to be all 5s, so......?

I want command on everyone. If some profiles have another stat but some don't that'll look reaaaaaaaaaaally weird.

I don't like the idea of meltas doing uncertain damage. It's not really realistic and doesn't really add much.

Shuriken catapults do have 2 shots. Seriously what crack are you on? xDDDD

Sweet jesus I don't even have excel on this computer. Soz, can you put it in a pdf?

Shuriken catapults do have 2 shots. Seriously what crack are you on? xDDDD

Minimal experience against Eldar over here, and i lack the codex, so doing my best. Whenever i say something blatantly wrong, assume its due to my lack of codex/experience, so im trying to make up throguh forums, guides, tacticas, etc.

I want command on everyone. If some profiles have another stat but some don't that'll look reaaaaaaaaaaally weird.

I agree, but that doesnt mean we cant have (---) for their Command value.

Sweet jesus I don't even have excel on this computer. Soz, can you put it in a pdf?

Sadly not, but google should be able to open this problem free, give that shot.

But like I said, since things will die much quicker now, having Stealth as 5 is a balance. Also you want a SM statline to be all 5s, so......?

Things should die faster in this system, but vehicles shouldnt worry about your average space marine killing them, unless they have lowest armor possible or are being shot at in the rear. And to take your misunderstanding of what i mean even further, lets give them 5 wounds and 5 attacks each? obviously assume i dont mean crazy amounts of 5's, but they should be dominated by those 5's. And yes having stealth 5 as average would make it harder to hit things, but then we run into the fun of most non MEQ units only being able to hit on 5's, which would feel AWFUL, and i fear would push more people into the Marine Armies, which i definitely dont want to happen, since they already dominate the game in terms of players. Instead, people will take advantage of cover more, especially since its now advantageous to every unit, people will think more about positioning and cover to maximize survivability. Trying to recapture the old level of survivability while leaving out a resolution is just going to cause too many problems,so instead think about how the new systems can synergize and improve each other.

20 bolters, or 20 bolter rounds? because if it's 20 bolter rounds, that's only ~3 wounds.

neither situation is good, i don't want 2 of my Strike Squads to total a vehicle in one turn, even disregarding my psycannons, which let me tell you, can lay down the hurt. If you take away that protection from small arms fire, heavy weapons become obsolete, since all the points youd put into weapons that can take out vehicles (as well as wreck infantry), can instead be put into larger amounts of base models, since they can take down vehicles as is, just not quite as well.

As for weapon types, I've decided there can't be just 2 or 3 or 4 weapon types for everything.
Because when some weapons are "energy", kinetic IS a form of energy, so it doesn't really work..

So maybe:

Projectile/Kinetic/Ballistic
Explosive
Force/Impact
Laser
Plasma
Electric
Toxic/Chemical/Poisoned

PS: You should read this article it is quite entertaining pahh.. http://www.cracked.com/article_16477_5-famous-sci-fi-weapons-that-theyre-actually-building.html

Kinetic, Laser, Plasma, Explosive should be good for nearly everything (sorry Necrons), but i want to avoid getting too involved in the individual weapon stats, as its gonna slow down things to a degree. Unless there's some really amazing, out there difference between these groups, id say simple is better. For example, that laser idea is definitely worth exploring, and Poisoned has a unique mechanic we need to work into things.

Edit: yeah seen some of those in action. They actually tried something almost exactly like a boltgun a few decades ago, it was called the gyrojet. Had interesting properties, but they ran into some problems with ammo production quality if i remember, that basically doomed the project.

Nah I can't get excel without having to fill in credit card details :s

That'll be terrible :O --- all over the place! Normal models deserve command, it's like a rank.

Just put yourself back into reality. If you've got little experience with guns, how hard is it to hit a target dozens and dozens of metres away? Definitely not half the time...

i don't want 2 of my Strike Squads to total a vehicle in one turn, even disregarding my psycannons, which let me tell you, can lay down the hurt

Strike squads are squads of 5 no? with storm bolters I'm guessing? Ok, so 20 bolter rounds goes to ~3 HP. And what do psycannons do? I assume they're meant for AT. 10 Grey Knights with all the add-ons and stuff I'd imagine to be at LEAST 200 points....that's about right if you want to down a 150 point vehicle in one turn.


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Unless there's some really amazing, out there difference between these groups, id say simple is better. For example, that laser idea is definitely worth exploring, and Poisoned has a unique mechanic we need to work into things.

I completely agree, some weapon types should be unique - laser weapons are already 2/3 figured out.

I don't think there should be a few types that EVERY weapon falls into. Every weapon will fall into a type, whether it be Chemical, Gauss, Electric, Sonic etc...

I'd say Laser is not a weapon type, just a weapon special rule. Thermal covers laser and plasma.

Just put yourself back into reality. If you've got little experience with guns, how hard is it to hit a target dozens and dozens of metres away? Definitely not half the time...

We're talking about a game dominated by 8 foot tall warrior monks that are often hundreds of years old wielding guns as heavy as a man that fire exploding missiles, and covered in half a cars worth of hypothetical materials, and have over a dozen bionic / genetic upgrades that were originally derived from an immortal superhuman who was born through the sacrifice of hundreds of psychic shamans before human civilization was born. i think we're WAAAAAAAAYYYY past the point where saying "Think about it realistically" is in play. We should be focused on what makes the system fun to play, not realistic, and having the vast majority units hit 33% of the time is not it.

Strike squads are squads of 5 no? with storm bolters I'm guessing? Ok, so 20 bolter rounds goes to ~3 HP. And what do psycannons do? I assume they're meant for AT. 10 Grey Knights with all the add-ons and stuff I'd imagine to be at LEAST 200 points....that's about right if you want to down a 150 point vehicle in one turn.

Max strike squads are of 10, typically with 2 psycannons on them. Thats 18 storm bolter shots, with 8 Psycannon shots each . Psycannons are 4 shot, str 7, rending guns, with some weird rules im not going into. Yes those 2 squads would cost you about 440 points or so, but i can do this turn after turn after turn. Typical infantry should not be able to affect vehicles except in the rarest of cases, otherwise why would vehicles even be a thing? Im all for reducing the quantity of vehicles in the game, but this would just be frustrating to play.

I don't think there should be a few types that EVERY weapon falls into

I agree, but rather than it being a trait of the weapon, when there needs to be a difference, just make it a special rule attached to it, like Poisoned, Rending, Melta, Overheat, Lance, and the upcoming Laser.

Edit: Ok got the spreadsheet into PDF, and UGH did it mess up all the formatting

and having the vast majority units hit 33% of the time is not it.

So how do you want to balance it, then?

440 points or so, but i can do this turn after turn after turn

wow o.o That's not turn after turn after turn btw, you forgot about getting shot.


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Lol that pdf..its ok

So how do you want to balance it, then?

I dont know, but reducing hit chances isnt it. For one, the game could probably do with a little more model loss, not a ton, but some. Second, by making things like cover easier to get and use (since its no longer a flat save that may or may not be useful, it can now affect not only a units Defense, but the Shooters BS, players will learn to use cover more. If we add in some modifiers for shooting, whatever those will turn out to be, that will have an effect as well. We dont need to reduce the open field shooting capability, we need to make it so that players think about the field more. Second, the unit-by-unit activation system will make it seem like theres less things dying, even if more overall are, since theyre broken up and not all at once like in the current system.

Second, how do you feel about the Psyker duel idea i brought up a while ago? im really excited about what could be done with it.

Regarding your mentally challenged pdf:

- Dire Avengers shouldn't be stronger! We're Eldar guddammit.
- Agree with Guardian down to WS/BS 4
- Instead of Scout +1St, I would keep them at St4 but their cloaks amplify cover saves instead
- Space Marine with D5 but Avenger with D2? pls
- Why do Genestealers have better Stealth?
- Too many 2s everywhere imho.
- Ork Boy shouldn't have better WS than a Guardian. They should be D3 too.
- Object to Defense stat - I just said D3.
- Agree with Necron Warrior WS4.
- Necron should be D5. Easily.
- Tau should be BS3, read mahtamori's comments

- What's up with the Boltgun 24" and Boltgun 18"?
- Why are Boltguns better than shuriken catapults -.-
- I would make Storm Bolters 18" - the avenger shuriken catapult of the spacederps!
- Gauss too strong
- Formatting too good....
- What would you say Lasguns get 18" P4 A2 Laser (lose 1P if over half range)


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Can you say your psyker duel idea again? Can't find it


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Edit: Ok don't worry.

This is what I am thinking:


In the Secondary Phase a Psyker may challenge an enemy Psyker within 12 x Psyker's Mastery Level to a Psychic Duel. This is similar to combat - the Attacks is the Psyker's current Warp Charge, and the Dexterity is the Psyker's Fortitude.

Idk...

- I would make Storm Bolters 18"

I would probably force choke you if we went that route, kiting at 24", then charging when they get frustrated is one of the core facets of the Grey Knights.

- Gauss too strong

Gauss is said to disintegrate and violently pull stuff at the molecular level. I think they warrant a bit of extra strength. Plus, this helps some if we decide to make rending not a random roll.

- What's up with the Boltgun 24" and Boltgun 18"?

Scout trainee vs initiated Space Marine, as per Lanrak's ideas.

- Why are Boltguns better than shuriken catapults -.-

Because you get more shots. I wouldn't mind them being Damage 5, but that could be a bit extreme at 2 shots on some not-expensive models.

- What would you say Lasguns get 18" P4 A2 Laser (lose 1P if over half range)

The problem with dropping lasgun range is that since guardsman units will not want to move and are slowish, enemy units could just sit outside their range and shoot them all day long. To do this and solve this, youd have to give officers some sort of "AIM" command to get that extra bit of range, which would always be necessary, and render all other orders obsolete. I do love the idea of the lasgun being damage 4, then damage 3 past half range.

- Dire Avengers shouldn't be stronger! We're Eldar guddammit

no experience with dire avengers here buddy, im taking wild shots in the dark with what little data i have.

Why do Genestealers have better Stealth?

Because they are infiltrating, scout units that just happen to hit like a runaway ice cream van in close combat. Admittedly, stealth 7 may be a bit extreme, but they should be higher than average, maybe higher than even "Stealth average".

- Ork Boy shouldn't have better WS than a Guardian.

Debatable. From what i understand, a Guardian is more or less just a civilian Eldar pressed into military service, and not an active member of the path of war, where as war and bashing people on the head is not only the only thing orks live for, its what their society is based off of. Plus they need something to offset their ABYSMAL BS.

- Instead of Scout +1St, I would keep them at St4 but their cloaks amplify cover saves instead

Again, they're a scouting, infiltrating unit, which means they use stealth. Playtesting will decide it, but im going with this route right now.

- Tau should be BS3, read mahtamori's comments

They should be lower than a space marine, however they use technology to supplant this. Not to mention they are better equipped and trained than a guardsman, so they should get a reward for this So raw theyre better than a guardsman, with the markerlight buffs theyre at MEQ levels.

As to all the talks about Defense, the way im converting is
T4/3+ == 5
T4/4+ OR T3/3+ == 4
T3/4+ == 3
T3/5+ OR T4/6+ == 2
T3/6+ == 1

In the Secondary Phase a Psyker may challenge an enemy Psyker within 12 x Psyker's Mastery Level to a Psychic Duel. This is similar to combat - the Attacks is the Psyker's current Warp Charge, and the Dexterity is the Psyker's Fortitude.

Very solid ideas, thank you. I'd rather just have the pschic duel area be a fixed 12" area or so, because otherwise your'e gonna have high mastery level models sniping other, weaker psykers without them being able to hit back.

Gauss is said to disintegrate and violently pull stuff at the molecular level. I think they warrant a bit of extra strength

We should be focused on what makes the system fun to play, not realistic

It's ok, I was mainly looking at the Gauss BLASTER which was S7. S6 is k.

Scout trainee vs initiated Space Marine, as per Lanrak's ideas

Maximum range of weapon is not affected by BS. Potential to hit at range IS affected by BS.

Because you get more shots. I wouldn't mind them being Damage 5, but that could be a bit extreme at 2 shots on some not-expensive models.

They're fine as they are now, just convert them - same stats as a bolter just without the 24" single shot capability. BTW S4 guns should stay at S4 right now, S5 is for scatter lasers, heavy bolters etc.

The problem with dropping lasgun range is that since guardsman units will not want to move and are slowish, enemy units could just sit outside their range and shoot them all day long

Lasguns are negligible when fired at 24", but decent at 12". That's why I settle at mediocre at 18", strong at 9".

Hahah yeah, all you need to know about Eldar is that they're T3 except hipster Eldrad.

Because they are infiltrating, scout units that just happen to hit like a runaway ice cream van in close combat. Admittedly, stealth 7 may be a bit extreme, but they should be higher than average, maybe higher than even "Stealth average".

*Bolden words "in close combat". They are just as easy to hit from range, but in combat their WS means they are agile killers.

a Guardian is more or less just a civilian Eldar pressed into military service, and not an active member of the path of war, where as war and bashing people on the head is not only the only thing orks live for, its what their society is based off of

You're right that Guardians are just plumbers sent to battle but they've still got the inhuman reaction's of the Eldar race. Orks, even if they live for it, are just plonkers.

Again, they're a scouting, infiltrating unit, which means they use stealth. Playtesting will decide it, but im going with this route right now.

Doesn't make them harder to hit in open air. When they use cover, yes they may amplify it.

Your defense conversions are solid, but remember to keep the balance at all times.

It's ok, I was mainly looking at the Gauss BLASTER which was S7. S6 is k.

Immortals wield higher power versions of the gauss flayer, thats just what it is.

Maximum range of weapon is not affected by BS. Potential to hit at range IS affected by BS.

Look back at Lanrak's ideas to see what i mean, but im beggining to think max range should never be decreased except for extreme cases like Imperial Guard Whiteshields, but veteran units could wield them at slightly better range. Not saying 100% lets do that, but its an interesting option.

They're fine as they are now, just convert them - same stats as a bolter just without the 24" single shot capability. BTW S4 guns should stay at S4 right now, S5 is for scatter lasers, heavy bolters etc

ummmmm.......? Strength 5 in the new system would be a value of 7, so idk what you mean.

lasguns are negligible when fired at 24", but decent at 12". That's why I settle at mediocre at 18", strong at 9".

that still doesnt address the issue that people will just sit outside their range and poke them to death, since if they leave cover they cant fire, and they're dead out of cover.

*Bolden words "in close combat". They are just as easy to hit from range, but in combat their WS means they are agile killers.

Yes but if we cant have units that are scouts and infiltrating have higher stealth, who does get stealth increases? thered be maybe 2 or 3 units that would benefit, negating the putpose of having a stealth stat.

(Regarding Scouts)Doesn't make them harder to hit in open air. When they use cover, yes they may amplify it

See my above arguement, but its not open air, its a battlefield, even if to us it looks like a flat plane. There's wreckage, outcroppings, dust, shadow, hills, valleys, and all sorts of terrain for them to take advantage of that does not have a terrain representative. Plus they're going to do their best to sneak about the place rather than just stomp through it like a Space Marine, so lets show that.

You're right that Guardians are just plumbers sent to battle but they've still got the inhuman reaction's of the Eldar race. Orks, even if they live for it, are just plonkers.

Agreed, which is why Eldar should have "Swift Strike" special rule, while orks have "Sluggish Strike". You're going to hit first, but they are better at hitting, its what they love to do.

Strength 5 in the new system would be a value of 7, so idk what you mean.

No, idk what YOU mean Average infantry value is 4. Average gun is 4. Bolter are shuriken are S4. Las is S3 (most of the time). Pulse and Gauss would be good at 5.

its a battlefield, even if to us it looks like a flat plane. There's wreckage, outcroppings, dust, shadow, hills, valleys, and all sorts of terrain for them to take advantage of that does not have a terrain representative. Plus they're going to do their best to sneak about the place rather than just stomp through it like a Space Marine, so lets show that.

seconded

Agreed, which is why Eldar should have "Swift Strike" special rule, while orks have "Sluggish Strike". You're going to hit first, but they are better at hitting, its what they love to do.

I've removed those. Since everything strikes at the same time, but some things gain Strike First, I reworked them.

Charging is now +1D only when attacking in combat.
Orks now ALL have Furious Charge (+1P on the charge).
Eldar now ALL have Nimble Fighter (+1D only when being attacked in combat).

I look at Orks and I think that, wow they're beefy but not exactly agile! Orks now strike at a ferocious D5 S6 on the charge, but only one attack. Whereas Eldar are pretty hard to hit in combat due to their superhuman sixth sense (+1 for alliteration).


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What's your opinion on splitting WS? I've encountered 5+ situations where dexterity of combat is not the same as hitting in combat.

If we split it then the stuff I've stated above can instead be something like this:

Charging into combat gives +1 Weapon Skill
Nimble Fighter gives +1 Dexterity

Any ideas for poisoned? I'm all blank.

Charging is now +1D only when attacking in combat.
Orks now ALL have Furious Charge (+1P on the charge).
Eldar now ALL have Nimble Fighter (+1D only when being attacked in combat).

I look at Orks and I think that, wow they're beefy but not exactly agile! Orks now strike at a ferocious D5 S6 on the charge, but only one attack. Whereas Eldar are pretty hard to hit in combat due to their superhuman sixth sense (+1 for alliteration).

while i agree with the logic, there needs to be a way to demonstrate faster units and slower units. Necrons may have above guardsman level combat skills, but they are sloooooow. Tau firewarriors may have trash combat skills, but they arnt slow-witted or anything. The idea of giving special rules for attacking or being attacked is exciting and full of potential, but it just feels more confusing than saying this unit is faster than that unit, period. And I can almost guarantee ork players would be up in arms over them not getting two attacks in favor of one slightly stronger attack. And no way would an ork ever hit harder than a space marine. For one, just no, secondly, that ork would be hitting just as hard as a space marine with a power sword under our current system, which is insane, and just as hard as a terminator, which is even more insane.

No, idk what YOU mean Average infantry value is 4. Average gun is 4. Bolter are shuriken are S4. Las is S3 (most of the time). Pulse and Gauss would be good at 5.

are we talking about original 40k or the new system? Because id like to have an area between Bolters and Lasguns for things like tyranid flesh borers, ork gunz, hell guns, etc. i put them in that category because it felt like it fit, but i don't have a problem with them being damage 5 alongside Bolters.

Any ideas for poisoned? I'm all blank.

best idea i have is for any values equal to or less than the poison value, you reroll that die. So a poison 1 weapon would reroll all 1s, poison 2 would reroll 1s and 2s, etc etc etc

What's your opinion on splitting WS? I've encountered 5+ situations where dexterity of combat is not the same as hitting in combat.

my opinion is against this, but i want to explore it, as it could be just as interesting as stealth and BS, so lets find out ASAP.

Hi Folks.
Glad to see you are focusing on core rules and resolution methods and not getting bogged down in special rules and how you want units to work before the core game play is finalized.....

The maximum range of a ranged weapons IS determined by the skill of the user.

Games can display this as maximum effective range , and give the chance to hit at this range .(Current 40k.)

OR they can state the EFFECTIVE RANGE FOR THAT USER, eg better shots hit target further away UP TO the maximum effective range of the weapon.

As respect to scaling weapon and armour interaction .

Have you finalized the suppression mechanic ?As this removes the focus on HAVING to cause physical damage to targeted units.
And would you be better served by defining the overlapping zones of interaction , before scaling the effects?

Just some thoughts ...

Wikipedia. Helps me make a realistic game

A plasma round would glow very brightly due to blackbody radiation, leading to quick substantial energy loss. This might also represent a blinding hazard for the operator and bystanders. From basic physics, a 1 cm ball of plasma at 10,000 Kelvin (K) would be equal to a 180 kilowatt (kW) bulb.

Perhaps incorporate a blinding effect.

Many materials already exist that are highly resistant to plasma, reinforced carbon-carbon used on the Space Shuttle's nose cone for example; or the ceramic inserts used in bulletproof vests.

Ceramic plating (2 or 3pts/model?), gives them +2R when being hit by a Plasma weapon.


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Wow lanrak 1 second!


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while i agree with the logic, there needs to be a way to demonstrate faster units and slower units. Necrons may have above guardsman level combat skills, but they are sloooooow. Tau firewarriors may have trash combat skills, but they arnt slow-witted or anything. The idea of giving special rules for attacking or being attacked is exciting and full of potential, but it just feels more confusing than saying this unit is faster than that unit, period. And I can almost guarantee ork players would be up in arms over them not getting two attacks in favor of one slightly stronger attack. And no way would an ork ever hit harder than a space marine. For one, just no, secondly, that ork would be hitting just as hard as a space marine with a power sword under our current system, which is insane, and just as hard as a terminator, which is even more insane.

Actually Ork players will still get 2 attacks, one being an attack from the slugga. Orks are strong right? They're buff as hell...

I wouldn't mind it at all if they were P4 R4 D4 with furious charge and 2 attacks + 1 pistol.

A plasma round would glow very brightly due to blackbody radiation, leading to quick substantial energy loss. This might also represent a blinding hazard for the operator and bystanders. From basic physics, a 1 cm ball of plasma at 10,000 Kelvin (K) would be equal to a 180 kilowatt (kW) bulb.
Perhaps incorporate a blinding effect.
Many materials already exist that are highly resistant to plasma, reinforced carbon-carbon used on the Space Shuttle's nose cone for example; or the ceramic inserts used in bulletproof vests.
Ceramic plating (2 or 3pts/model?), gives them +2R when being hit by a Plasma weapon.

interesting, but feels way too involved. Ceramite plating would be bonkers as an upgrade, nowhere do you buy protection from one type of weapon, save invulnerable saves.

And welcome back Lanrak, glad to see you still have an interest in this thread.

Have you finalized the suppression mechanic ?As this removes the focus on HAVING to cause physical damage to targeted units.
And would you be better served by defining the overlapping zones of interaction , before scaling the effects?

not yet, we've been working out other facets of the game right now. Input and ideas on this would be appreciated.

OR they can state the EFFECTIVE RANGE FOR THAT USER, eg better shots hit target further away UP TO the maximum effective range of the weapon.

i like it, lets see where it goes, but it could be tricky to implement, so kinda 50/50 on the idea.

Actually Ork players will still get 2 attacks, one being an attack from the slugga. Orks are strong right? They're buff as hell...

but the should still get 2 attacks if they take a shoota, orks have tons of attacks, thats one of their defining characteristics as an army. And yes they are very strong, but as strong as a genetically engineered human in strength enhancing armor? Probably not. I know i sound like a massive space marine fanboy, but that furious charge bonus is a large part of ork tactics.

are we talking about original 40k or the new system? Because id like to have an area between Bolters and Lasguns for things like tyranid flesh borers, ork gunz, hell guns, etc. i put them in that category because it felt like it fit, but i don't have a problem with them being damage 5 alongside Bolters.

The current weapon stats fit in pretty well with the chart. 3-5 for normal weapons is exactly what I want to see, because it is complimentary to the 3-5 Resilience of normal infantry.

best idea i have is for any values equal to or less than the poison value, you reroll that die. So a poison 1 weapon would reroll all 1s, poison 2 would reroll 1s and 2s, etc etc etc

splendid

my opinion is against this, but i want to explore it, as it could be just as interesting as stealth and BS, so lets find out ASAP.

me too...


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interesting, but feels way too involved. Ceramite plating would be bonkers as an upgrade, nowhere do you buy protection from one type of weapon, save invulnerable saves.

how too involved? This is a scenic direction How about 1 point per model. For just 10 points, it's a good deal unless you're tight on points.


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@Lanrak. Welcome back,

This is how I see it. Weapons have an innate unmodified maximum range - bolter rounds sinking to the floor, or a plasma containment field dissipating. The firer would fire at any target within his weapon's range. He has a higher chance of hitting closer targets; he has a lower chance of hitting targets further away.

That's it.

The current weapon stats fit in pretty well with the chart. 3-5 for normal weapons is exactly what I want to see, because it is complimentary to the 3-5 Resilience of normal infantry.

yes but that's what made tau pulse rifles so good, was their higher than Boltgun damage. There need to be things between a Boltgun and a Lasgun, just like there need to be things above a Boltgun. And if a space marine is Defense 5, I'd like for the very scary weapons to be wounding them on more than a 50% chance.

how too involved? This is a scenic direction How about 1 point per model. For just 10 points, it's a good deal unless you're tight on points.

well for one, it would have to be costed appropriately between armies, and second, its too situational to expect people to consider seriously, so i dont see a point in even having it.