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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:10:00
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways
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So, you are cool with people being able to sit wherever they like on the bus?
Don't you think it is a bit presumptuous that people can sit wherever they like despite why and what they are? What about tradition? And certain people being unnatural and bad? I mean, have you not seen this book I have explaining all this?
And all because of some hypothetical situation where someone, somewhere, might want to sit somewhere else?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 16:11:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:13:07
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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jasper76 wrote:if I see something I perceive to be unjust or abusive going on, I don't feel any need to stay quiet about it
Perhaps you should feel the need to learn more about what you perceive to be unjust or abusive before going on the offensive. jasper76 wrote:I also realize that many people believe their religious traditions should be free from criticism, and that such criticism may be considered by such people as presumptuous.
This is not really a matter of criticism. What we have here is someone who is not Catholic saying Catholicism should change to suit them. This is actually an example of cultural imperialism.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:13:48
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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cincydooley wrote: jasper76 wrote:
Yes to both, I suppose. I don't think religious traditions deserve any kind of exemption whatsoever from criticism, and if I see something I perceive to be unjust or abusive going on.
What's unjust or abusive about it? No one is forced to be Catholic.
Catholic doctrine has no bearing on their legal protection.
Actually, children are quite frequently forced to be Catholic. And sometimes, their indoctrination is so strong that they can't bring themselves to leave, but that is pretty off topic.
I believe that teaching homosexuals that homosexual sex is sinful is tantamount to psychological abuse. I believe that teaching the children of homosexual couples that there is something sinful about their parents sexual behavior is also physcological abuse.
I believe that abuse is unjust.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 16:15:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:14:53
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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SilverMK2 wrote:So, you are cool with people being able to sit wherever they like on the bus?
Don't you think it is a bit presumptuous that people can sit wherever they like despite why and what they are? What about tradition? And certain people being unnatural and bad? I mean, have you not seen this book I have explaining all this?
And all because of some hypothetical situation where someone, somewhere, might want to sit somewhere else?
I'm trying to decide if this is actually the most poorly constructed analogy I've ever read, or if it's only in the top 5.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:15:00
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike
Waiting at the Dark Tower steps..
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Ouze wrote:But ultimately, yesterday, the Catholic Church decreed that actual homosexuality wasn't sinful, homosexual acts are, and the only marriage can be between a woman and a man.
Today, that's all still exactly the same, right?
Oh no.... The emprah does not approve of such pagan beliefs especially when it involves a religious cult!!
Dude get real I could care less if homosexuals get married. But just to appease people who are like you who are honestly a little demented I say we call Homosexual marriage "A sacred bound between two men or two women that is essentially marriage" does that work for you?
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First rule of Avatars in a room is: you never call the mods. Second rule of Avatars in a room is: you never call the mods. -Tyler Durden |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:15:23
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Manchu wrote: jasper76 wrote:if I see something I perceive to be unjust or abusive going on, I don't feel any need to stay quiet about it
Perhaps you should feel the need to learn more about what you perceive to be unjust or abusive before going on the offensive. jasper76 wrote:I also realize that many people believe their religious traditions should be free from criticism, and that such criticism may be considered by such people as presumptuous.
This is not really a matter of criticism. What we have here is someone who is not Catholic saying Catholicism should change to suit them. This is actually an example of cultural imperialism.
I undertsand your opinion, and disagree with it. I don't think Catholicism should change to suit me. I think it should change to suit its own members.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:15:31
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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jasper76 wrote:Actually, children are quite frequently forced to be Catholic.
This statement makes no sense. It is like saying children are frequently forced to go to bed before 9PM. jasper76 wrote:I don't think Catholicism should change to suit me. I think it should change to suit its own members.
Which ones?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/15 16:16:54
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:16:02
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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cincydooley wrote: SilverMK2 wrote:So, you are cool with people being able to sit wherever they like on the bus?
Don't you think it is a bit presumptuous that people can sit wherever they like despite why and what they are? What about tradition? And certain people being unnatural and bad? I mean, have you not seen this book I have explaining all this?
And all because of some hypothetical situation where someone, somewhere, might want to sit somewhere else?
I'm trying to decide if this is actually the most poorly constructed analogy I've ever read, or if it's only in the top 5.
It's close...
Wonder if if they'd let an American move in with one of the UK's royal family's residence. Ya know... reasons.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:16:39
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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jasper76 wrote:
I believe that teaching homosexuals that homosexual sex is sinful is tantamount to psychological abuse. I believe that teaching the children of homosexual couples that their is something sinful about their parents sexual behavior is also physcological abuse.
Who is teaching them this? Your hypothetical homosexual Catholic couple sending their kids to Sunday school? Isn't that, then on that homosexual couple?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:18:42
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Manchu wrote: jasper76 wrote:Actually, children are quite frequently forced to be Catholic.
This statement makes no sense. It is like saying children are frequently forced to go to bed before nine.
Children are frequently forced to go to bed before nine....I don't get why this statement or mine doesn't make any sense.
Manchu wrote: jasper76 wrote:I don't think Catholicism should change to suit me. I think it should change to suit its own members.
Which ones?
Homosexual Catholics who want to get married in the Catholic Church, and the Catholics who support them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: cincydooley wrote: jasper76 wrote:
I believe that teaching homosexuals that homosexual sex is sinful is tantamount to psychological abuse. I believe that teaching the children of homosexual couples that their is something sinful about their parents sexual behavior is also physcological abuse.
Who is teaching them this? Your hypothetical homosexual Catholic couple sending their kids to Sunday school? Isn't that, then on that homosexual couple?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 16:19:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:23:21
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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I think you're being intentionally obtuse at this point.
In order for the children of homosexuals to be taught that Catechism, those homosexuals have to send them to Sunday School or teach them the Catechism themselves.
So, it's on the parents, then, that they're being "abused." Not the Catholic Church.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:24:54
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Uh... teaching the Catechism is abusive?
I'm not Catholic... but...
wut?
O.o
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:25:48
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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cincydooley wrote:I think you're being intentionally obtuse at this point.
In order for the children of homosexuals to be taught that Catechism, those homosexuals have to send them to Sunday School or teach them the Catechism themselves.
So, it's on the parents, then, that they're being "abused." Not the Catholic Church.
I sincerely was not trying to be intentionally obtuse.
There are churches where the priests give sermons against homosexual activity. There is a English-language TV station that regularly sermons against homosexual activity. I agree with you, though, in that it is up to parents to protect their children from this stuff.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:26:52
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Do you think it is abusive to teach kids that sex outside of marriage is sinful? Automatically Appended Next Post: jasper76 wrote: Manchu wrote: jasper76 wrote:I don't think Catholicism should change to suit me. I think it should change to suit its own members.
Which ones?
Homosexual Catholics who want to get married in the Catholic Church, and the Catholics who support them.
Why them and not the ones who don't support it?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 16:27:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:37:22
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Manchu wrote:Do you think it is abusive to teach kids that sex outside of marriage is sinful?
In order to answer this question fully, which I'd be forced to answer in the affirmative, we'd have to broaden the discussion to include the entire concept of the doctrine of 'sin', and whether that does or does not do real psychological harm to children. Perhaps its better not to open that can of worms, or perhaps a new thread could be started on it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:38:17
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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jasper76 wrote: Manchu wrote:Do you think it is abusive to teach kids that sex outside of marriage is sinful?
In order to answer this question fully, which I'd be forced to answer in the affirmative, we'd have to broaden the discussion to include the entire concept of the doctrine of 'sin', and whether that does or does not do real psychological harm to children. Perhaps its better not to open that can of worms, or perhaps a new thread could be started on it.
Ahhh, so teaching sin in general is abuse.
Okay, well I think I'm done here.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:39:14
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Manchu wrote: jasper76 wrote: Manchu wrote: jasper76 wrote:I don't think Catholicism should change to suit me. I think it should change to suit its own members.
Which ones?
Homosexual Catholics who want to get married in the Catholic Church, and the Catholics who support them.
Why them and not the ones who don't support it?
Because I sympathize with the 'out-group' on this one.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:40:45
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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jasper76 wrote: Manchu wrote:Do you think it is abusive to teach kids that sex outside of marriage is sinful?
In order to answer this question fully, which I'd be forced to answer in the affirmative, we'd have to broaden the discussion to include the entire concept of the doctrine of 'sin', and whether that does or does not do real psychological harm to children
Why would we have to go through all of that to answer a question about premarital sex but you don't have to take any of that into account when making a statement about homosexuality? Automatically Appended Next Post: jasper76 wrote: Manchu wrote: jasper76 wrote: Manchu wrote: jasper76 wrote:I don't think Catholicism should change to suit me. I think it should change to suit its own members.
Which ones?
Homosexual Catholics who want to get married in the Catholic Church, and the Catholics who support them.
Why them and not the ones who don't support it?
Because I sympathize with the 'out-group' on this one.
So, we are right back to you wanting people to change their religion to suit you.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 16:41:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:41:54
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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cincydooley wrote: jasper76 wrote: Manchu wrote:Do you think it is abusive to teach kids that sex outside of marriage is sinful?
In order to answer this question fully, which I'd be forced to answer in the affirmative, we'd have to broaden the discussion to include the entire concept of the doctrine of 'sin', and whether that does or does not do real psychological harm to children. Perhaps its better not to open that can of worms, or perhaps a new thread could be started on it.
Ahhh, so teaching sin in general is abuse.
Okay, well I think I'm done here.
Fair enough. I come from a point of view that people can hold different opinions, even about serious issues, with eachother and still be friendly. So in that spirit, cheers!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:So, we are right back to you wanting people to change their religion to suit you.
I think it's more correct to say that when I observe the internal conflict within the Catholic Church over same-sex marriage, I sympathize with the side that is pro-same sex marriage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote:Why would we have to go through all of that to answer a question about premarital sex but you don't have to take any of that into account when making a statement about homosexuality?
We wouldn't. We could stop at the word 'sin'. But that wouldn't allow us to have the interesting conversation about whether or not its abusive to teach a child that their parents are doing something morally wrong, when there is no good eveidence that what the child's parents are doing is something that is actually morally wrong.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/15 16:50:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:55:12
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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jasper76 wrote: Fair enough. I come from a point of view that people can hold different opinions, even about serious issues, with eachother and still be friendly. So in that spirit, cheers! I agree, I just think that's a fundamental philosophical difference where any discourse isn't going to really further anything. That's all. I think it's more correct to say that when I observe the internal conflict within the Catholic Church over same-sex marriage, I sympathize with the side that is pro-same sex marriage.
[ See, I think there's an important distinction to be made here. I'm incredibly pro homosexual equal rights. Nothing the Catholic Church can or will do will change their rights under the law. I also don't think the Catholic Church should change one of our most holy of sacraments to suit the desires of other people especially since it does not infringe on their rights. We wouldn't. We could stop at the word 'sin'. But that wouldn't allow us to have the interesting conversation about whether or not its abusive to teach a child that their parents are doing something morally wrong, when there is no good eveidence that what the child's parents are actually doing something morally wrong.
I guess I've never heard anyone try and quantify morality before. That's a new one.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 16:55:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 16:57:57
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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jasper76 wrote:I think it's more correct to say that when I observe the internal conflict within the Catholic Church over same-sex marriage, I sympathize with the side that is pro-same sex marriage.
Sure -- when looking into someone else's religion, you want things to change according to your sympathies, your values, your motivations and NOT those of the people you are presumptuously speaking for.
As to sin -- it is almost like you assume "sin" makes you an outsider. For Catholics, sin is the default. The sacraments exist for sinners; they are expressions of grace healing a world that never quite lives up to perfect. They are not rewards for people who don't sin.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 17:04:15
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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I do have a good understanding of the RCC teachings on 'sin', 'original sin', 'mortal sin', 'venial sin', and the system of Sacraments.
As to the gay marriage thing, your point is taken. If I ever came across as trying to speak up for pro-gay marriage Catholics, I fully recognize they can speak for themselves, and I apologize.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 17:04:24
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Sniping Reverend Moira
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Manchu wrote:
As to sin -- it is almost like you assume "sin" makes you an outsider. For Catholics, sin is the default. The sacraments exist for sinners; they are expressions of grace healing a world that never quite lives up to perfect. They are not rewards for people who don't sin.
Yup. I get the impression this portion is misunderstood.....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 17:05:08
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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jasper76 wrote:I do have a good understanding of the RCC teachings on 'sin', 'original sin', 'mortal sin', 'venial sin', and the system of Sacraments.
If so, you have not given any indication of that understanding ITT.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 17:08:50
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Fiery Bright Wizard
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Why is it that people seem to have this odd idea that their ideals need to be first and foremost in everyone elses minds? that their religion is the true one, that their party is the correct one. I mean for things like gay marriage why does anyone have a say in it other then the men and men or women and women who want to get married? I know I'm probably preeching to the choir, but I just want to get that off of my chest.
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I'll never be able to repay CA for making GW realize that The Old World was a cash cow, left to die in a field. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 17:14:26
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Manchu wrote: jasper76 wrote:I do have a good understanding of the RCC teachings on 'sin', 'original sin', 'mortal sin', 'venial sin', and the system of Sacraments.
If so, you have not given any indication of that understanding ITT.
I understand it. I think the Christian (not just Catholic, but Christian in general) concept of 'sin' is itself immoral for many reasons, which I was hoping would be irrelevant to the conversation because it is a more fundamental disagreement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 17:18:29
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Brennonjw wrote:Why is it that people seem to have this odd idea that their ideals need to be first and foremost in everyone elses minds?
It's a good question. Why do non-Catholics believe that the Church must change to suit them? It's weird but they do. You can claim that all day long but you are not demonstrating it and if anything your posts suggest the opposite.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 17:19:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 17:20:43
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Well alrighty then. You haven't stated anything about the Christian (or Catholic) concept of sin that I am not already familiar with. Do you care to point out in what respect I do not understand Christian sin?
I am open to the idea that I am mistaken.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/15 17:23:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 17:30:56
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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[MOD]
Solahma
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You want me to guess what you don't know about the Catholic concept of sin?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/10/15 17:35:53
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Manchu wrote:You want me to guess what you don't know about the Catholic concept of sin?
You are suggesting that I don't know much about it. I have made a claim to the contrary. But if there's something I don't know, I'd like to know what it is.
If you were just stating your opinion and moving on, or if you're not inclinded to let me know what you think I don't know about Catholic sin, fair enough.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/15 17:38:30
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