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2014/10/13 17:15:46
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
Vatican proposes 'stunning' shift on gays, lesbians
By Delia Gallagher, CNN
ROME (CNN) – Using strikingly open language, a new Vatican report says the church should welcome and appreciate gays, and offers a solution for divorced and remarried Catholics who want to receive Communion.
At a press conference on Monday to present the report, Cardinal Louis Antonio Tagle of the Philippines said the most-discussed topics at a meeting of Catholic clergy here has been the impact of poverty, war and immigration on families.
But the newly proposed language on gays and civil marriages represents a “pastoral earthquake,” said one veteran Vatican journalist.
“Regarding homosexuals, it went so far as to pose the question whether the church could accept and value their sexual orientation without compromising Catholic doctrine,” said John Thavis, a former Rome bureau chief for Catholic News Service.
The Rev. James Martin, an author and Jesuit priest, called the report's language on gays and lesbians "revolutionary."
“This is a stunning change in the way that the Catholic Church speaks about gay people.”
The Catholic Catechism calls homosexual acts “intrinsically disordered” and calls on gays and lesbians to live in chastity.
But Pope Francis, while hewing to Catholic teaching, has signaled a gentler tone, famously saying in 2013 "Who am I to judge?" gays and lesbians.
The synod report released Monday is a summary of a week of closed-door discussions of nearly 200 bishops, cardinals and priests, together with Pope Francis, on the topic of the family.
The discussions continue this week and a final report will be issued at the end of the week.
The goal of this meeting, officially called the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops on the Family, is to present working proposals for a larger meeting to be held next October 2015.
Here’s a summary of where the church may be heading on hot-button issues.
Gays and lesbians
The report firmly re-states the Catholic Church’s position that marriage is between a man and a woman and therefore, “unions between people of the same sex cannot be considered on the same footing as matrimony between a man and a woman.”
However it notes that, there are examples of good gay relationships “in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of partners.”
The report states:
“Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community. Are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a church that offers them a welcoming home. Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?”
The report adds that the church should pay "special attention to the children who live with couples of the same sex, emphasizing that the needs and rights of the little ones must always be given priority.”
Finally, the report laments any outside pressure from “international bodies” that make “regulations inspired by gender ideology” a prerequisite of financial aid.
Communion
On the hotly debated question of Communion for divorced and remarried Catholics, the synod’s report offers a solution of the “penitential path” or a period of reflection and penance which would allow the partners in a second marriage to receive communion.
This solution, it says, must not be a “general possibility” but one which could be applied in certain cases. It would be up to the local bishop to make the decision.
The document states that this was only one possible solution and that the problem requires further study.
Annulments
“The speeding up of the procedure” of granting annulments was requested by many, according to the report. Various ways to make annulments “more accessible and flexible” were suggested by the Synod.
Contraception
The synod discussions re-iterated the church’s “appropriate teaching regarding natural methods” of birth control.
Citing economic factors which sometimes contribute to the decision not to have children, the synod nonetheless states that “being open to life is an intrinsic requirement of married love.”
Cohabitation and civil marriage
The synod discussions emphasized the “positive reality” of civil weddings and cohabitation which, while not the ideal of Christian marriage, nonetheless contain “constructive elements.”
Many couples who choose to live together, according to the synod, do so for economic reasons.
“Simple cohabitation is often a choice inspired by a general attitude, which is opposed to institutions and definitive undertakings, but also while waiting for a secure existence (a steady job and income).”
“In other countries common-law marriages are very numerous…because getting married is a luxury, so that material poverty encourages people to live in common-law marriages.”
In these cases, the synod says, “The church is called on to be the house of the Fathers, with doors always wide open…where there is a place for everyone, with all their problems.”
The summed up version is that the Catholic church is now seemingly poised for a shift or adjustment to how it views gays. While it is not a fully revolution and complete acceptance, what it is is a new focus on recognizing the good in people and offering them a "welcoming home".
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing anything fundamentally different here. While it is admirable lip service, there is no actual change here: gay people would be committing a sin if they ever consummated a relationship, let alone get married. It's more "hate the sin, love the sinner", right?
My mom is always raving about how awesome the new Pope is but ultimately it seems to me to just be a new, friendly wrapper on the same package. Right? Or am I missing something?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/13 17:49:47
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2014/10/13 17:58:31
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?
Without denying the moral problems connected to homosexual unions it has to be noted that there are cases in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners.
Ouze wrote: I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing anything fundamentally different here. While it is admirable lip service, there is no actual change here: gay people would be committing a sin if they ever consummated a relationship, let alone get married. It's more "hate the sin, love the sinner", right?
My mom is always raving about how awesome the new Pope is but ultimately it seems to me to just be a new, friendly wrapper on the same package. Right? Or am I missing something?
From what I read, it seems like the Church may be shifting away from it's current stance of "being gay is inherantly sinful, so if you have to be gay, be celibate and never sex anyone up" to the slightly more tolerant "gays can be people too, sometimes, and if they are in a committed relationship, they can sex each other up, but no marriage for them because that's still for heteros only". To a liberal American, that may not seem like any kind of difference, but to a monolithic organization as resistant to change as the Catholic Church, it's a massive change.
Baby steps, people. Baby steps.
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2014/10/13 18:02:55
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
Keep in mind, "being gay" is not inherently sinful. Homosexual acts are sinful. The Church has been making this distinction for a long time but you know in practice it doesn't do much to mitigate prejudice and the feeling of unwelcomeness that gay Catholics feel regarding their religion.
What we have here is the idea that non-ideal relationships (not limited to homosexual ones) have dimensions that are more than "non-sinful" but are actually good and commendable.
Also the Catholic Church is in no sense "monolithic."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/13 18:03:23
Manchu wrote: Keep in mind, "being gay" is not inherently sinful. Homosexual acts are sinful. The Church has been making this distinction for a long time but you know in practice it doesn't do much to mitigate prejudice and the feeling of unwelcomeness that gay Catholics feel regarding their religion.
Watch all those facts, Manchu. You and I both know they have no place when it comes to begrudging the Holy See
2014/10/13 18:06:32
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
Ouze wrote: I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing anything fundamentally different here. While it is admirable lip service, there is no actual change here: gay people would be committing a sin if they ever consummated a relationship, let alone get married. It's more "hate the sin, love the sinner", right?
My mom is always raving about how awesome the new Pope is but ultimately it seems to me to just be a new, friendly wrapper on the same package. Right? Or am I missing something?
From what I read, it seems like the Church may be shifting away from it's current stance of "being gay is inherantly sinful, so if you have to be gay, be celibate and never sex anyone up" to the slightly more tolerant "gays can be people too, sometimes, and if they are in a committed relationship, they can sex each other up, but no marriage for them because that's still for heteros only". To a liberal American, that may not seem like any kind of difference, but to a monolithic organization as resistant to change as the Catholic Church, it's a massive change.
Baby steps, people. Baby steps.
Change doesn't happen overnight. It is little by little. Until one day, you are so different, bUT you may not recognize it
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2014/10/13 18:11:29
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
But ultimately, yesterday, the Catholic Church decreed that actual homosexuality wasn't sinful, homosexual acts are, and the only marriage can be between a woman and a man.
Today, that's all still exactly the same, right?
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2014/10/13 18:27:53
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
Ouze wrote: But ultimately, yesterday, the Catholic Church decreed that actual homosexuality wasn't sinful, homosexual acts are, and the only marriage can be between a woman and a man.
Today, that's all still exactly the same, right?
Marriage in the Catholic church bears the responsibility of procreation. Gay couples can't fulfill that. So, in that regard, it will never change.
2014/10/13 18:30:41
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
There is an intellectual realm of concepts and ideas where subtle distinctions make a big difference.
And then there is life, where people say one thing and do another. For example, they say "love the sinner, hate the sin" but in practice it seems just like hating the sinner.
So a lot of what Pope Francis has done is taking the discussion out of that hypothetical world of the intellect and putting Christian love into practice. Rather than give a complicated homily about the theological virtue of charity, Pope Francis showed the world a charitable act when he said "who am I to judge?"
Marriage in the Catholic church bears the responsibility of procreation. Gay couples can't fulfill that. So, in that regard, it will never change.
Oh, is that so? Does the church refuse to solemnize marriages between men who have had vasectomies or are impotent, or women who have had hysterectomies, or are simply barren?
Look, I get that the Catholic church is not going to do gay marriage anytime soon. That's sort of the brand, and that's where they draw the line, and that's OK. Free market and all that, as it were.
But why, you know, make the sympathetic noises instead of flat out doubling down? At best the message is confusing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/13 18:34:29
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2014/10/13 18:36:33
Subject: Re:Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
Oh, is that so? Does the church refuse to solemnize marriages between men who have had vasectomies or are impotent, or women who have had hysterectomies, or are simply barren?
Dogmatically? Yes, it does. Impotence is one of the canonical impediments that would prevent a couple from holding a catholic wedding.
It's also the most common granted a dispensation.
It's actually the "cleanest" path the Pope has to allowing homosexual marriages in the Catholic church, as well. Not saying that'll happen, of course.
2014/10/13 18:38:17
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
So put your platonic thinking cap on, Ouze. You need to remember the concept of "form." The form is the idealized type. For Catholics, the form of marriage is the consummation of love in procreation. Not all actual marriages "live up" to this form but they are marriages nonetheless. Any relationship that inherently cannot participate in the form cannot be a marriage.
Cincy -- keep in mind that the prospective spouses being of the same sex is more than a mere impediment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/13 18:39:32
Cincy -- keep in mind that the prospective spouses being of the same sex is more than a mere impediment.
Well, you're right there.
I think what I'm trying to say that I do believe there is a path to acceptance by the Catholic church if they want it to be. Not an easy one, mind you, but I think you could argue it canonically, especially if science was to able to prove homosexuality was an evolutionary measure for population control.
2014/10/13 19:07:37
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
So a lot of what Pope Francis has done is taking the discussion out of that hypothetical world of the intellect and putting Christian love into practice. Rather than give a complicated homily about the theological virtue of charity, Pope Francis showed the world a charitable act when he said "who am I to judge?"
I think that, IMO this is one of the biggest differences between this pope and previous ones. We have here a Man in a funny hat, we don't have an "infallible being" in a funny hat. For many, many years it's sort of been preached that the Pope is the ultimate example of Catholicism, and that, often times he was treated as though he had never, and was incapable of sinning.... Francis here is continually reminding people that he is simply a man. He came from sin, lived in sin, and through the "grace" of the sacrement and Christ, etc. is "Saved", but he is still ultimately a man.
It'll be interesting in the coming months and years of his pope-ship to see what changes, and how much, and what stays the "same"
2014/10/13 19:24:24
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
The pope is not the church. And the church is very much a hypocritical institution who have less than zero moral integrity to tell people how to live their lives.
Manchu wrote: The Church is comprised of all the faithful. The moral depredations of priests does not invalidate the faith or the tradition.
All the faithful except all those people that the priests say are all bad and icky and everyone should shun them and please ignore the priest behind the curtain doing everything that we have told you is bad and then ignore the entire institution protect him and work to keep the victims silent so that we can contine taking your money, defiling your children in body and mind and pushing our dogma despite all the harm it does to the people we claim to love and claim that god loves (terms and conditions apply).
I'm sorry, but the catholic church has invalidated itself from the moral high ground through the actions of those who control it.
Manchu wrote: The Church is comprised of all the faithful. The moral depredations of priests does not invalidate the faith or the tradition.
All the faithful except all those people that the priests say are all bad and icky and everyone should shun them and please ignore the priest behind the curtain doing everything that we have told you is bad and then ignore the entire institution protect him and work to keep the victims silent so that we can contine taking your money, defiling your children in body and mind and pushing our dogma despite all the harm it does to the people we claim to love and claim that god loves (terms and conditions apply).
I'm sorry, but the catholic church has invalidated itself from the moral high ground through the actions of those who control it.
Okay... that's your opinion... carry on.
OP: Good for the pope to provide more clarity.
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2014/10/13 20:31:26
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
Manchu wrote: The Church is comprised of all the faithful. The moral depredations of priests does not invalidate the faith or the tradition.
All the faithful except all those people that the priests say are all bad and icky and everyone should shun them and please ignore the priest behind the curtain doing everything that we have told you is bad and then ignore the entire institution protect him and work to keep the victims silent so that we can contine taking your money, defiling your children in body and mind and pushing our dogma despite all the harm it does to the people we claim to love and claim that god loves (terms and conditions apply).
I'm sorry, but the catholic church has invalidated itself from the moral high ground through the actions of those who control it.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
If thats okay with you, we'll continue the discussion we were having.
2014/10/13 20:37:25
Subject: Vatican proposes shift on Catholic view of homosexuality
SilverMK2 wrote: the catholic church has invalidated itself from the moral high ground through the actions of those who control it
As long as you go on about "high ground" you'll keep missing the point.
The point being one person in a fancy hat saying a few plattitudes while nothing actually changes either in the dogma or the rotten core of the priesthood? Yep, got that point.
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