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Zimko wrote: But they're only described as moving like Jump units within a rule that is not yet 'called' sequentially. You're being inconsistent. At the point in which the rule you're paraphrasing is called, FMCs have not been described as moving like Jump.
Right. So this is your argument. Which is NOT the same as mine. I am working from A track. You are working from B track.
b) FMCs are only described as moving like Jump units when they are using one of two flight modes. While in Reserves they have yet to choose a Flight mode and therefore are not described as moving like Jump units. As such they cannot Deep Strike until after they arrive from Reserves (which is too late).
I believe the 'B track' is true, yes, but I'm ignoring that for the sake of this thread and assuming we're dealing with a FMC who has the Deep Strike USR.
Assuming that, we know a FMC with MF can not utilize Swoop. And we know that by using Deep Strike, we are going to force the FMC to enter play in Swoop. Knowing this means we can not legally use Deep Strike on a FMC with MF.
You're saying that since we're following the rules sequentially, we can ignore the fact that we know a conflict will arrise and go ahead and Deep Strike anyway. This logic conflicts with your previous thread where you said we knew in the future that an FMC will move like a Jump unit and therefore gains Deep Strike.
Grendal is merely pointing out this inconsistency in your arguments.
nosferatu1001 wrote: That you must be in swoop. Are you allowed to be in swoop? No, unless you break the formation rule. What allows you to break either ds or the formation rule? Page and graph.
Quote the rule that you are having trouble with and let's discuss when that rule is called.
Based on evidence, I'm not having any issues with the rules.
I note you failed to answer where you are gaining permission to break a rule from. Any chance you could do so this time? As per the tenets and all. Thanks.
nosferatu1001 wrote: That you must be in swoop. Are you allowed to be in swoop? No, unless you break the formation rule. What allows you to break either ds or the formation rule? Page and graph.
Quote the rule that you are having trouble with and let's discuss when that rule is called.
Based on evidence, I'm not having any issues with the rules.
I note you failed to answer where you are gaining permission to break a rule from. Any chance you could do so this time? As per the tenets and all. Thanks.
I am asking you to quote the rule where you have a problem. The burden is on you to indicate clearly where the problem is. Otherwise there is no problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 18:51:08
col_impact wrote: My whole theory revolved around reading the rules as they actually are and not conflating these two statements.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Your whole theory conflated those two statements.
No, you want to NOT follow the rule step by step in order to grant Deep Strike, and then insist that you MUST follow them step by step in order to try and worm around a restriction.
You only follow the order of rules when it is convient for you, and then don't when it isnt. You're never consistent in your arguments.
col_impact wrote: My whole theory revolved around reading the rules as they actually are and not conflating these two statements.
A) "Units that are described as 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
B) "Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Your whole theory conflated those two statements.
No, you want to NOT follow the rule step by step in order to grant Deep Strike, and then insist that you MUST follow them step by step in order to try and worm around a restriction.
You only follow the order of rules when it is convient for you, and then don't when it isnt. You're never consistent in your arguments.
You implement a house rule which drops "described as" from the rule above. I don't implement that house rule. The FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit and so indeed is granted Deep Strike.
There would only be a problem with inconsistency if I was trying to reconcile a rule that was stated like this with what I am saying now.
"Units that are 'moving like' Jump units follow all of the rules for Jump units, and use the same special rules."
Luckily for me, the rule is not stated like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 19:01:29
The problem is you cannot deploy the tyrant in any mode other than swooping RAW if you deploy by deep strike.
the skytyrant rule specifies that you must always glide, it does not state you may count as gliding at all times, or even count as gliding when deep striking.
therefore you are allowed to hold the unit and reserves, and you are allowed to deep strike the unit as per the RAW. but you may not place the tyrant when you deep strike as it has to be placed in swooping, when it is required by RAW in this case to be gliding.
placing the tyrant would be breaking the rules, in any way you try to say its "okay" it is not.
either the tyrant is gliding when it is required to be swooping, or the unit is swooping when its not allowed to as the gargoyles have no rule granting them permission, the formation does not grant it, and the HT cannot extend the rule to the gargoyles-even if it could you would be breaking the rule for the formation that requires the HT to always be gliding.
either way you end up in a situation where models in the unit cannot legally by the rules be placed on the table.
RAW the unit has deepstrike, but the rules of the game prevent you from using it.
col_impact wrote: You implement a house rule which drops "described as" from the rule above. I don't implement that house rule. The FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit and so indeed is granted Deep Strike.
It's not described as that while in reserve.
Only by NOT following the rules in order, step by step, can you claim it is.
But that's an argument for another thread. One that was locked.
I was simply observing with some amusement you lack of consistency, as now you claim you must follow them step by step, as it suits your wishes this time.
I'll leave you to your debate, try not to get this one locked by bringing up the old one
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 19:02:33
So to sum up THIS thread, following the rules sequentially allows one to Deep Strike a FMC. Which then leads to a conflict where a FMC is in Swoop when it is not allowed to be in Swoop and we have no rules to resolve the conflict.
The ethical thing to do is to disallow Deep Strike in this case so as to not give a player an advantage that may not have been intended by the rules.
The RAW thing to do is nothing... because there's no rule on how to resolve the conflict.
blaktoof wrote: The problem is you cannot deploy the tyrant in any mode other than swooping RAW if you deploy by deep strike.
the skytyrant rule specifies that you must always glide, it does not state you may count as gliding at all times, or even count as gliding when deep striking.
therefore you are allowed to hold the unit and reserves, and you are allowed to deep strike the unit as per the RAW. but you may not place the tyrant when you deep strike as it has to be placed in swooping, when it is required by RAW in this case to be gliding.
placing the tyrant would be breaking the rules, in any way you try to say its "okay" it is not.
either the tyrant is gliding when it is required to be swooping, or the unit is swooping when its not allowed to as the gargoyles have no rule granting them permission, the formation does not grant it, and the HT cannot extend the rule to the gargoyles-even if it could you would be breaking the rule for the formation that requires the HT to always be gliding.
either way you end up in a situation where models in the unit cannot legally by the rules be placed on the table.
RAW the unit has deepstrike, but the rules of the game prevent you from using it.
It's a good thing the rules TELL US what to do in these kind of situations
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They
include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules
for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a
special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability
to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader
or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike,
a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games
Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
col_impact wrote: You implement a house rule which drops "described as" from the rule above. I don't implement that house rule. The FMC is indeed described as moving like a Jump unit and so indeed is granted Deep Strike.
It's not described as that while in reserve.
Only by NOT following the rules in order, step by step, can you claim it is.
But that's an argument for another thread. One that was locked.
I was simply observing with some amusement you lack of consistency, as now you claim you must follow them step by step, as it suits your wishes this time.
I'll leave you to your debate, try not to get this one locked by bringing up the old one
And I am amused by your inability to wrap your mind around the phrase "described as"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 19:05:31
There is nothing preventing me from Deep Striking, so I go ahead and Deep Strike, correct?
Incorrect. By doing so you'd break a rule.
Just like if you moved a Tac Squad 7" in the movement phase.
What rule do I break by Deep Striking?
For reference, here are the Deep Strike Rules. What rule do I break when I perform them?
You forgot to quote a rule. Let me help you out:
Spoiler:
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Please explain how you are not breaking this rule, given the restriction from ever Swooping.
Edit: oh, and a repeat of Basic vs Advanced won't help your argument unless you actually, I dunno, explain how breaking an Advanced rule is handled.
As you've been asked before.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 19:12:08
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
There is nothing preventing me from Deep Striking, so I go ahead and Deep Strike, correct?
Incorrect. By doing so you'd break a rule.
Just like if you moved a Tac Squad 7" in the movement phase.
What rule do I break by Deep Striking?
For reference, here are the Deep Strike Rules. What rule do I break when I perform them?
You forgot to quote a rule. Let me help you out:
Spoiler:
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Please explain how you are not breaking this rule, given the restriction from ever Swooping.
Edit: oh, and a repeat of Basic vs Advanced won't help your argument unless you actually, I dunno, explain how breaking an Advanced rule is handled.
As you've been asked before.
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
That rule doesn't happen until AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking, correct?
Zimko wrote: So to sum up THIS thread, following the rules sequentially allows one to Deep Strike a FMC. Which then leads to a conflict where a FMC is in Swoop when it is not allowed to be in Swoop and we have no rules to resolve the conflict.
The ethical thing to do is to disallow Deep Strike in this case so as to not give a player an advantage that may not have been intended by the rules.
The RAW thing to do is nothing... because there's no rule on how to resolve the conflict.
I disagree in the conclusion - any game relies on "break no rule unless told" - so you cannot here intentionally break th rules, which is what col is requiring. They won't state it, but that is the truth as evaluated here.
Zimko wrote: So to sum up THIS thread, following the rules sequentially allows one to Deep Strike a FMC. Which then leads to a conflict where a FMC is in Swoop when it is not allowed to be in Swoop and we have no rules to resolve the conflict.
The ethical thing to do is to disallow Deep Strike in this case so as to not give a player an advantage that may not have been intended by the rules.
The RAW thing to do is nothing... because there's no rule on how to resolve the conflict.
I disagree in the conclusion - any game relies on "break no rule unless told" - so you cannot here intentionally break th rules, which is what col is requiring. They won't state it, but that is the truth as evaluated here.
There is no rule being broken. A conflict emerges between sources and we have a rule to sort that out.
You guys are going all over the place with talk of ethics, non-sequential, and stuff that isn't in the BRB. Let's follow the rules as they are written, okay? No babies will be aborted in the process.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/25 19:22:02
There is no conflict, as pointed out. You can meet both requirements,
I note you still refuse to cite your permission. So I will assume you cannot, and therefore failing to follow the tenets. Please mark your posts appropriately, currently they are not raw despite your claims.
nosferatu1001 wrote: There is no conflict, as pointed out. You can meet both requirements,
I note you still refuse to cite your permission. So I will assume you cannot, and therefore failing to follow the tenets. Please mark your posts appropriately, currently they are not raw despite your claims.
Okay. So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
There is no way for those two to coexist, so you must choose the one that breaks no rules. The FMC can not Deep Strike.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
There is nothing preventing me from Deep Striking, so I go ahead and Deep Strike, correct?
Incorrect. By doing so you'd break a rule.
Just like if you moved a Tac Squad 7" in the movement phase.
What rule do I break by Deep Striking?
For reference, here are the Deep Strike Rules. What rule do I break when I perform them?
You forgot to quote a rule. Let me help you out:
Spoiler:
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
Please explain how you are not breaking this rule, given the restriction from ever Swooping.
Edit: oh, and a repeat of Basic vs Advanced won't help your argument unless you actually, I dunno, explain how breaking an Advanced rule is handled.
As you've been asked before.
“If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.”
That rule doesn't happen until AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking, correct?
And you've been asked before - how is the timing relevant?
Is a rule broken because you chose to Deep Strike - yes or no?
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Ghaz wrote: There is no way for those two to coexist, so you must choose the one that breaks no rules. The FMC can not Deep Strike.
Okay. So you see a conflict. The conflict happens AFTER THE FACT of Deep Striking. We use Basic Vs Advanced to resolve conflicts between sources.
Which is what exactly?
The Monstrous Flock rule doesn't change its Flight Mode. So how is the conflict resolved?
I don't necessarily see a conflict. Tell me exactly how these rules conflict.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
Flight Mode wrote:Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding.
You can't have both.
The Monstrous Flock rule never States that a FMC Swooping changes to Gliding. It never forces or allows a change. It is simply a restriction.
What rule allows a Swooping FMC to change to Gliding?
Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both. So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.
I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.
So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
col_impact wrote: Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both.
That's an actual rule, I just quoted it.
So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.
Yet the rule doesn't state that it takes it away or replaces the Flight Mode.
The rule gives no way to resolve the conflict.
By choosing to Deep Strike, you create an impossible situation that the rules don't cover, where you break one of two rules no matter what you choose.
The only legal option, is to choose NOT to Deep Strike. That is the only option that breaks no rules.
col_impact wrote: Okay so the conflict for you is that the FMC can't have both.
That's an actual rule, I just quoted it.
So per Basic Vs Advanced, the formation source either takes away the conflicting Swooping mode and puts the Flyrant into MC mode or it sets the mode to gliding mode. Strict RAW is probably the former since we have to get to the next movement phase to set the gliding mode.
Yet the rule doesn't state that it takes it away or replaces the Flight Mode.
The rule gives no way to resolve the conflict.
By choosing to Deep Strike, you create an impossible situation that the rules don't cover, where you break one of two rules no matter what you choose.
The only legal option, is to choose NOT to Deep Strike. That is the only option that breaks no rules.
Spoiler:
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override
any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a
model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions,
a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always
takes precedence.
If the Flyrant has a rule per MF that it "can only use Gliding mode" then "can only use" will take precedence over the BRBFMC rule per the Basic Vs Advanced Rule and take the Flyrant out of Swooping mode.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Again, no conflict. Simple repetition isn't helping. Please, answer the questions posed, as do far you have a distinct lack of rules, or logic.
I am fine with the consequence of what you are saying - that there is no conflict.
So Deep Strike happens. Flyrant counts as Swooping. Flyrant can only use gliding mode. I agree there is a way of reading that so that there really is no conflict. I am fine with a solution that simply has these co-exist.
Flyrant counts as Swooping.
Flyrant can only use gliding mode
There is no conflict as per dealing with conflicts. There is a rule being broken, either way
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