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If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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If you could abort a Primarch to change history to favor the Imperium, which would you choose?
Lion El'Jonson
II
Fulgrim
Perturabo
Jaghatai Khan
Leman Russ
Rogal Dorn
Konrad Kurze
Sanguinius
Ferrus Manus
XI
Angron
Roboute Gilliman
Mortarian
Magnus the Red
Horus Lupercal
Lorgar Aurelian
Vulkan
Corvus Corax
Alpharius and Omegon
Even if the results would save quintillions of human lives, abortion is always wrong

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Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

Exactly, also Erebus had already been lying to him the entire time, pretending he was Sejanus, but Horus still trusted everything he said....
   
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Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

Erebus did show him the actual future, though. The statues of Horus, Perturabo, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Magnus, Cruze, Angron, Alpharius, and Lorgar were all missing from the Palace of Terra, and the Emperor is worshiped as a god. The vision just didn't explain why.
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Erebus did show him the actual future, though. The statues of Horus, Perturabo, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Magnus, Cruze, Angron, Alpharius, and Lorgar were all missing from the Palace of Terra, and the Emperor is worshiped as a god. The vision just didn't explain why.


Yes, he did. But Horus was entirely too trusting that it was the truth, with no evidence, after he'd already been lied to. Just because it happened to be the truth doesn't make Horus' blind following of it any more reasonable. Least of all from Erebus.
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




New York City

I believe chaos would very likely seduce Horus no matter which primarch theoretically gets killed on Terra. When you are in such a high position with that much doubt of everything around you, it won't be hard at all.

That being said, I voted for Lorgar. He had early influence over the chaos cults before the Dropsite Massacre happened. Without him, the cults would have probably had a weak start. And the Ultramarines might not have been tied down at the Five Hundred Worlds by two traitor legions and a warpstorm.

Fight for our dead! Death to their living! And claim them in the name of the Emperor!
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The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.


The Emperor was PISSED about how the Night Lords acted during the Great Crusade. Curze was about to be reprimanded when Istvaan III broke out.

So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:



If time-travel is possible then the future is presumably pre-destined. I.e. if you go back in time and do nothing events will unfold in exactly the same way as before. So I could possibly justify killing Lorgar (which would probably have had the greatest effect on preventing a widespread Heresy).


Just throwing this out there... the Heresy that eventually happens could succeed. The Chaos Gods aren't going to roll over and do nothing. They're going to look for openings, which will come from the other Primarchs eventually. Magnus has been shown to take candy from strangers when he smashed his way to tell the Emperor about the heresy. Russ was manipulated by Horus easily enough. Angron was crazy. Curze thought the Emperor was a hypocrite. There's no lack of Primarchs that *could* be corrupted in the right circumstances. The vision proposed to turn Girlyman could have easily worked on Russ as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/17 19:03:24


 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
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Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought




The oceans of the world

Angron, cause without him there are no world eaters
   
Made in gb
Multispectral Hsien





Gosport, UK

 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.


The Emperor was PISSED about how the Night Lords acted during the Great Crusade. Curze was about to be reprimanded when Istvaan III broke out.

So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?


No ones saying that Curze would change his ways. Just that Curze wouldn't have the subtlety to turn the other Primarchs, and who the hell would follow Curze anyway?

Also isn't it Angron who's whole thing is the Emperor is a hypocrite? And Mortarion. I've never got the impression that Cirze and Empy get on but I dunno where he says about the Emperor being a hypocrite. Could've missed it though.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Captain Wracked with Visions






 Kerrathyr wrote:
Without Lorgar, Erebus probably wouldn't be a chaplain/marine, just a religious zealot on a planet, who would not accept the Imperial Truth. Hence, he would have been taken diwn in order to obtain the compliance of said planet.

That's my thinking too. Plus with a loyal Word Bearer legion that means that the rebels;
a) Do not have access to the second most numerous of the Legions
b) Monarchia's devastation never takes place. Because of that the emnity between the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers never develops. This means that the most numerous Legion, Ultramarines, are not tied up during the events of the Shadow Crusade
c) The Lodges would not exist as they did, thus making it harder for any rebels to meet clandestinely
d) The Blood Angels would not be diverted to Signus Prime and distracted from the unfolding events
e) No deamon Angron
f) Significantly weaker rebels mean that the Cabal do not have a way in with the Alpha Legion



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 EmpNortonII wrote:
So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?

He does change his ways; he goes from Primarch of the VIII Legion to joining the Lost Primarchs

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/17 22:01:14


 
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






 ImAGeek wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.


The Emperor was PISSED about how the Night Lords acted during the Great Crusade. Curze was about to be reprimanded when Istvaan III broke out.

So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?


No ones saying that Curze would change his ways. Just that Curze wouldn't have the subtlety to turn the other Primarchs, and who the hell would follow Curze anyway?

Also isn't it Angron who's whole thing is the Emperor is a hypocrite? And Mortarion. I've never got the impression that Cirze and Empy get on but I dunno where he says about the Emperor being a hypocrite. Could've missed it though.

The way I see it, the worst that would happen is Curze would ignore Daddy's summons and force a confrontation, probably with the still loyal Sons of Horus. Curze would die, still feeling vindicated, and his legion would be absorbed by Horus. Not really getting the Curze hatred, and not sure how you interpreted my words the way you did, but take a chill pill dude. And Curze proved twice that he didn't have the ability to turn other Primarchs to his cause, just ask Lion-o and Vulkan.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought





The Beach

 ImAGeek wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.


The Emperor was PISSED about how the Night Lords acted during the Great Crusade. Curze was about to be reprimanded when Istvaan III broke out.

So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?


No ones saying that Curze would change his ways. Just that Curze wouldn't have the subtlety to turn the other Primarchs, and who the hell would follow Curze anyway?

Exactly. It is irrelevant what happens to Curze when taken into custody. He either changes his ways, or he's put down like Primarcsh 2 and 11.

The Curzus Heresy would be a one man show, and very short, lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/18 02:51:03


Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: Tutorial, Posing, Conversions and other madness. The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy

The Ultimate Badasses: Colonial Marines 
   
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The Internet- where men are men, women are men, and kids are undercover cops

We actually already know what happens. Curze already told us.... but mostly he told Fulgrim.

Without Lorgar's intervention (by starting the Horus Heresy), Curze would be taken before the Emperor and killed. AFTER that, Primarchs would die and Astartes would kill each other.

So, let me paint a picture, if you will. Curze is taken before the Emperor to account for his actions in the Great Crusade. Konrad calls the Emperor a coward... and by virtue of his prophetic visions, recounts to his brothers the tale of what happened to the Thunder Warriors. The Emperor then judges Curze guilty and kills him, as forseen.



Some Primarchs have faith in the Emperor, and some dig for information. The most likely to find information is obviously Magnus, because Magnus is fething brilliant and willing to listen to the Lord of Change that conveniently showed up to tempt him in the alternate universe when he broke the Emperor's path to the Webway.

Some Primarchs, like Dorn, would be dumb enough and trusting enough to go along with the Emperor, even though the fate of the Space Marines would likely be the same as the Thunder Warriors. Mortarion, Horus, Angron, Alpharius, and Perturabo would not. Fulgrim's lost to the daemon blade, and serves as Chaos's chance to infect the Heresy, rather than having a secular rebellion.

To his credit, I think Guilliman would side with the rebels. I think learning the fate of the Thunder Warriors would destroy his faith in the Emperor. THAT is what would make the Curze Heresy victorious when the Horus Heresy failed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/18 06:23:21


 Jon Garrett wrote:
Perhaps not technically a Marine Chapter anymore, but the Flame Falcons would be pretty creepy to fight.

"Boss, we waz out lookin' for grub when some of them Spice Marines showed up and shot all the lads."

"Right. Well, did you at least use the burnas?"

"We tried, but the gits was already on fire."

"...Kunnin'."
 
   
Made in us
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






So in a way.... Curze would succeed where Horus failed. I like it!

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
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Maine

Logar is the obvious choice, without him the Horus Heresy would have never happened. Horus and Erebus are sort of meh, Erebus probably wouldn't have had enough sway without Logar and Horus would have never fallen to Chaos. Horus is definitely a good choice too though, because if Horus was dead then the Emperor wouldn't hesitate because he wouldn't have fought his favored son and would have survived.
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





Horus, though hear me out.

Killing Lorgar would only delay the Ruinous Power's plans to corrupt another Primarch to their ends, and though they may concoct another plan- the lack of Horus as the Warmaster greatly changes the way things would turn out.

And Lorgar's corruption is easily dealt with if events with Erebus play out the same way- Loose the Wolves upon him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/23 23:28:21


Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better.

-Roboute Guilliman
 
   
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 Mecha-Streisand wrote:
Horus is definitely a good choice too though, because if Horus was dead then the Emperor wouldn't hesitate because he wouldn't have fought his favored son and would have survived.


It's worth noting that Horus' confrontation with the Emperor was a desperate act, one last attempt to win before the arrival of the rest of the loyalists spelled unavoidable defeat.

Another leader of the Heresy might have very well won or lost before it came to that moment.
   
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

If not Lorgar and Erebus, it would have been someone else. Same with Horus. Chaos would have found a way.


I vote for the Fulgrim Heresy: bewbs and loud music for all!


Actual vote for aborting goes to Logan. The scruffy mutt didn't need much convincing to take down Magnus, and helped the Heresy quite a bit. Plus I hate him and his furries.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

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Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
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The Beach

LordBlades wrote:
 Mecha-Streisand wrote:
Horus is definitely a good choice too though, because if Horus was dead then the Emperor wouldn't hesitate because he wouldn't have fought his favored son and would have survived.


It's worth noting that Horus' confrontation with the Emperor was a desperate act, one last attempt to win before the arrival of the rest of the loyalists spelled unavoidable defeat.

Another leader of the Heresy might have very well won or lost before it came to that moment.
I guess.

Depends on which version of the Heresy we go with, lol.

The "ending" to the Heresy has been alternately described as "We don't know why" to "Space Wolves and Dark Angels were coming" to "Horus was drawing the Emprah into a trap" to explain why/how the Emperor got aboard Horus's ship.

So until The Black Library ends this series sometime in 2022 with the Battle of Terra novel, we won't know what the current timeline suggests.

Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?

True Scale Space Marines: Tutorial, Posing, Conversions and other madness. The Brief and Humorous History of the Horus Heresy

The Ultimate Badasses: Colonial Marines 
   
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Been Around the Block





Bump, I voted for Lorgarbage, but seriously someone should abort Erda.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 JohnHwangDD wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
I voted for Rogal Dorn. Without Dorn, I think the final battle might have gone much different, leading to a possible victory for Horus.

I voted for Dorn as well. He's a totally redundant ass-kisser with no tactical or strategic sense - worthless.

Funnily enough, I'd do it too. Dorn is utterly worthless, he managed to lose every single battle of Heresy he touched, even one he wasn't present in (Phall) after Pollux nearly won it. He couldn't retake Mars despite besieging it for years and also nearly started second Heresy as HH ended. Kill Dorn, and Perturabo is chosen to do the Palace instead, keeping him loyal (and Imperium needs scientist legion much more than masochist bootlickers). Horus won't even get close to Terra without a guy who did most of the work and breached all fortresses in the way to it. You also get rid of annoying Black Templars, win-win
   
Made in nl
Fixture of Dakka





Look I make balloon animal

Yay! We just revived a dead thread from 6 years ago!

Anyways, the obvious choices are Lorgar and Magnus. Lorgar is a good choice because he is so instrumental in bringing about the Horus Heresy (though without Lorgar, Chaos may have found other ways).

But Magnus is the best choice because he did more damage to the Emperor's plans than all other traitor Primarchs combined. Without Magnus, the Emperor's Webway Project would have succeeded and the Emperor and the Adeptus Custodes would have been available to put a swift end to Horus' little insurrection instead of trying to prevent the end of times in the Webway.

Killing Magnus before he ruins the Webway project is the only certain way to prevent the Emperor from ending up on the Golden Throne.

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Yeah, please do not resurrect threads from aeons ago.

Ya'll know what time it is.


   
 
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