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 Venerable Ironclad wrote:
I'm willing to bet that characters will have some kind of exemption from this rule.

Easiest way is to make it just be a Wound and/or allow for Saves to work. If it is just RFP, I can't see it happening.

so its roll for all models embarked, assign ones as wanted!

Yeah panic over for those who were......

So, assault ramps, assault vehicle, all gone?

I was kinda hoping assault ramps would work like Ork boarding planks, and add to your Charge range.

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Was okay to risk the plasma Marines firing their weapon with gets hot but it's not acceptable to risk them because they transport might get blown up?

Most of the concern is the, erm, unplanned-for-feels-bad-randomness. You buy a guy a plasma gun and you are accepting he's probably going to fry himself every once in awhile. The issue is that now we have to wrap our heads around the fact that putting something into a transport might mean it never comes out again....and that's okay, ordinance used to happen before as well.

The annoying issue is seeing Draigo/Calgar/Logan Grimnar/250+ point uber lord getting squished through 3+ wounds, 2+ save and an invulnerable while billy the boltgunner walks out unscathed. Feels bad man.

I'm willing to bet that characters will have some kind of exemption from this rule.

I could see something similer to eternal warrior being baked into the rules for characters

BrianDavion wrote:

 Venerable Ironclad wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:
Was okay to risk the plasma Marines firing their weapon with gets hot but it's not acceptable to risk them because they transport might get blown up?

Most of the concern is the, erm, unplanned-for-feels-bad-randomness. You buy a guy a plasma gun and you are accepting he's probably going to fry himself every once in awhile. The issue is that now we have to wrap our heads around the fact that putting something into a transport might mean it never comes out again....and that's okay, ordinance used to happen before as well.

The annoying issue is seeing Draigo/Calgar/Logan Grimnar/250+ point uber lord getting squished through 3+ wounds, 2+ save and an invulnerable while billy the boltgunner walks out unscathed. Feels bad man.

I'm willing to bet that characters will have some kind of exemption from this rule.

I could see something similer to eternal warrior being baked into the rules for characters

Just don't put them on a transport by themselves. If you have a unit with them, it'll soak the deaths.

 Asmodai wrote:
Just don't put them on a transport by themselves. If you have a unit with them, it'll soak the deaths.

No more than doing so does for Dangerous Terrain or Gets Hot does now...

The new transport rules seem really counter-intuitive.

Let's say I've got a unit of Incubi. They're slow buggers, so I'll put them on a Raider to help them get into combat.

"Okay, turn 2, I'll Move my Raider forward and then disembark my Incubi."
"You can't - their transport moved this turn."
"What?"
"Units can't disembark if their transport moves."
"But that's it's whole function! It's a *transport*. It has literally one job - to move units around the battlefield."
"Them's the rules."
"So, if I want move my Incubi, I first have to get them out of their transport and then have them walk up the battlefield. At which point my now-empty transport can move, the driver giving them a friendly wave as he passes them."
"Yep. Don't worry though - you can also assault units directly with your transport."
"Ah, that's more like it. Okay, I'll assault your marine squad with my Incubi Raider."
"Okay. Now the units inside it get to shoot me."
"Wait, what? You mean they can't attack you with melee weapons?"
"Nope."
"And they can't get out to join the combat either?"
"Nope."
"So, the benefit of assaulting a unit with a vehicle is that I can fire the unit's *guns* at it."
"Yep."
"The same guns they could have fired anyway, had I not bothered charging?"
"Those are the ones."
"Well, I sure am glad that my melee unit can do bugger all when their transport is in melee, whilst my shooting units can blaze away both in melee and at a distance. I'm also super glad that I have these great transports to help get my Incubi to combat. Imagine if they had to walk up the battlefield or stand gormlessly around on top of a transport that's sitting right in the midst of their enemies."

It's a little awkward, but I think it just depends on how much distance you need to cover.

Because basically the situation is that transports are really fast, but you basically have to sacrifice a turn to disembark (ie turn 1: move, turn 2: disembark).

So, if the enemy is only about 12-14" away, it'd be faster to just walk forward 6-8" and then charge 6".

But if the enemy is 24" away or more, spending a turn to disembark from a transport might be worth it. Instead of spending three turns moving before you finally charge, you spend the first turn moving 12" with the transport, then on the second turn you disembark 3" forward, move 6", then charge. In that situation, the transport did indeed save you time.

If you're in a larger play area like a 9x5/8x4 board our an apocalypse game, transports are even more worth it if you're 48" away or more. Because you can spend a couple turns covering lots of ground in the transports, at the cost of having to sacrifice one turn to disembarking at the end.

 ross-128 wrote:

Because basically the situation is that transports are really fast, but you basically have to sacrifice a turn to disembark (ie turn 1: move, turn 2: disembark).

And the enemy then have a turn to move away and shoot your transport.

 ross-128 wrote:
Because basically the situation is that transports are really fast, but you basically have to sacrifice a turn to disembark (ie turn 1: move, turn 2: disembark).

But in doing so, they've removed the entire point of open-top transports like the Raider and Trukk.

Also, surely transports being fast is the whole point of using them in the first place? If they weren't fast, you'd just walk the damn infantry.

 vipoid wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

Because basically the situation is that transports are really fast, but you basically have to sacrifice a turn to disembark (ie turn 1: move, turn 2: disembark).

And the enemy then have a turn to move away and shoot your transport.

 ross-128 wrote:
Because basically the situation is that transports are really fast, but you basically have to sacrifice a turn to disembark (ie turn 1: move, turn 2: disembark).

But in doing so, they've removed the entire point of open-top transports like the Raider and Trukk.

Also, surely transports being fast is the whole point of using them in the first place? If they weren't fast, you'd just walk the damn infantry.

Open topped is useful because you get to shoot out of the thing. And you're not really thinking about the flipside of if you could disembark after moving, which is that every unit in a transport would get a first turn charge every turn on anything within 30ish inches.

Secondly you are REALLY underestimating the value of controlling your opponent's turn. Forcing him to shoot at what you want him to shoot at and move where you want him to move is very powerful.

ERJAK wrote:
Open topped is useful because you get to shoot out of the thing.

Oh wonderful. I'm pleased to hear that my Incubi will be able to shoot their nonexistant guns.

ERJAK wrote:
And you're not really thinking about the flipside of if you could disembark after moving, which is that every unit in a transport would get a first turn charge every turn on anything within 30ish inches.

I didn't say that it should be for every transport - just the open-topped ones. Do you seriously see nothing wrong with it being just as hard to assault out of a Trukk as it is to assault out of a Rhino?

Also, they could have done something like 5th - where the unit can disembark a couple of inches from the vehicle but can't move any further themselves. Or they could say that units can disembark and move if the transport moves half it's maximum move.

ERJAK wrote:
Secondly you are REALLY underestimating the value of controlling your opponent's turn. Forcing him to shoot at what you want him to shoot at and move where you want him to move is very powerful.

And you're REALLY overestimating the appeal of melee units that get completely screwed by the transport rules, compared to melee units that either don't need transports (because they have bikes or such) or else just using shooting units that get an actual benefit from open-top vehicles.

 vipoid wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

Because basically the situation is that transports are really fast, but you basically have to sacrifice a turn to disembark (ie turn 1: move, turn 2: disembark).

And the enemy then have a turn to move away and shoot your transport.

 ross-128 wrote:
Because basically the situation is that transports are really fast, but you basically have to sacrifice a turn to disembark (ie turn 1: move, turn 2: disembark).

But in doing so, they've removed the entire point of open-top transports like the Raider and Trukk.

Also, surely transports being fast is the whole point of using them in the first place? If they weren't fast, you'd just walk the damn infantry.

It's still saving you a turn or two in any situation where you're more than two moves away from your target. And if they do blow up the transport, well now they've disembarked those models for you (minus any 1s they rolled on their rapid unscheduled disembarkment). It seems to be a common theme on this forum that people mistake "situational" for "useless". Your units aren't locked in or out of their transports, just take a look at the deployment zones and enemy deployment before you decide whether to deploy embarked or on foot.

You could also attack in two waves: the first wave charges the transports in to suppress enemy fire and limit their retreat options to a Fall Back move, the second wave stops behind them and prepares to disembark next turn.

You're going to have to adapt your tactics and deployment stance to different situations on the board as they turn up, that's not a bad thing.

 ross-128 wrote:

It's still saving you a turn or two in any situation where you're more than two moves away from your target.

It is. But it's also means that assault units built around having access to fast transports are completely screwed.

 ross-128 wrote:
And if they do blow up the transport, well now they've disembarked those models for you (minus any 1s they rolled on their rapid unscheduled disembarkment).

Er . . . what?

You seem to be implying that this is somehow a benefit, but they've done nothing for you that you couldn't have done yourself.

 ross-128 wrote:
It seems to be a common theme on this forum that people mistake "situational" for "useless".

It seems to be a common theme on this forum that people mistake 'outclassed in every way and fulfils no useful function' for 'situational'.

 ross-128 wrote:

You could also attack in two waves: the first wave charges the transports in to suppress enemy fire and limit their retreat options to a Fall Back move, the second wave stops behind them and prepares to disembark next turn.

I could. Or I could just play a shooting army and have better weapons at better range that can actually use my transports.

 ross-128 wrote:

You're going to have to adapt your tactics and deployment stance to different situations on the board as they turn up, that's not a bad thing.

Now I remember why I stopped bothering with this forum. Can't even go a few posts without "L2P" being thrown around.

What were you expecting to be able to do? Move the transport forward, advance the transport d6, disembark 3" forward, move the disembarked unit, and charge all in the same turn?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that would be? That would give an assault army nearly a 36" threat range on turn 1.

 ross-128 wrote:
What were you expecting to be able to do? Move the transport forward, advance the transport d6, disembark 3" forward, move the disembarked unit, and charge all in the same turn?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that would be? That would give an assault army nearly a 36" threat range on turn 1.

Some people are just too desperate for their Rhino Rush armies from 4th to come back because they think even 5th Transports rules were too limiting. Don't pay any heed to those people.

So, what's exactly wrong with raiders? It's a 2-d or 3-d turn charge anywayz with it's movement speed and increased durability + the movement speed increase of all the elves.

You get an extra 3 inches from disembarking, and eldar might have 7 inch movement base probably. They still have a decent threat range. You just have to think ahead in order to use your transports. Right now? everyone just speeds their transports ahead full speed into the enemy without a thought. There's no strategy to transports in 7th.

Even eldar, you move, flat out, and jink when they shoot at you. Its boring. Now you might actually have to think about ranges.

 ross-128 wrote:
What were you expecting to be able to do? Move the transport forward, advance the transport d6, disembark 3" forward, move the disembarked unit, and charge all in the same turn?

Finish burning that strawman and we'll talk.

 koooaei wrote:
So, what's exactly wrong with raiders? It's a 2-d or 3-d turn charge anywayz with it's movement speed and increased durability + the movement speed increase of all the elves.

The issue is that you don't actually get to use the Raider's movement (including its flight) in any capacity before disembarking. What's more, if you charge the vehicle itself into combat, you're still unable to use the melee weapons of the passengers.

Why would you not just use guns? The advantages of DE assault units are meagre enough without also making them unable to take advantage of their transports. Just compare them to Warriors or Trueborn - who can use the full movement of the Raider to get in position before opening fire, as well as being able to shoot into combat if the Raider charges or is charged.

I think you're really underestimating the degree to which DE melee units relied on their transports.

 Don Savik wrote:
You get an extra 3 inches from disembarking, and eldar might have 7 inch movement base probably.

So, a 2" loss from last edition then. More if they've lost Fleet.

 Don Savik wrote:
They still have a decent threat range.

No, they really don't. They're supposed to be using ultra-fast transports that are open-topped to allow for fast disembarking. And that amounts to . . . no advantages whatsoever over a unit that charges out of a Rhino.

 Don Savik wrote:
You just have to think ahead in order to use your transports.

And hope that your opponent is brain-dead.

Also, L2P fallacy yet again. I think we're done here.

 vipoid wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
What were you expecting to be able to do? Move the transport forward, advance the transport d6, disembark 3" forward, move the disembarked unit, and charge all in the same turn?

Finish burning that strawman and we'll talk.

 koooaei wrote:
So, what's exactly wrong with raiders? It's a 2-d or 3-d turn charge anywayz with it's movement speed and increased durability + the movement speed increase of all the elves.

The issue is that you don't actually get to use the Raider's movement (including its flight) in any capacity before disembarking. What's more, if you charge the vehicle itself into combat, you're still unable to use the melee weapons of the passengers.

Why would you not just use guns? The advantages of DE assault units are meagre enough without also making them unable to take advantage of their transports. Just compare them to Warriors or Trueborn - who can use the full movement of the Raider to get in position before opening fire, as well as being able to shoot into combat if the Raider charges or is charged.

I think you're really underestimating the degree to which DE melee units relied on their transports.

 Don Savik wrote:
You get an extra 3 inches from disembarking, and eldar might have 7 inch movement base probably.

So, a 2" loss from last edition then. More if they've lost Fleet.

 Don Savik wrote:
They still have a decent threat range.

No, they really don't. They're supposed to be using ultra-fast transports that are open-topped to allow for fast disembarking. And that amounts to . . . no advantages whatsoever over a unit that charges out of a Rhino.

 Don Savik wrote:
You just have to think ahead in order to use your transports.

And hope that your opponent is brain-dead.

Also, L2P fallacy yet again. I think we're done here.

You've been done since before this conversation started friend. You decided that your opinion was not only the only correct interpretation you dismiss any counter argument as some made up logical fallacy (l2p fallacy really? Learn to play is the correct answer as often as it's not) sorry you don't get a guaranteed 30" charge every turn.

 vipoid wrote:
The issue is that you don't actually get to use the Raider's movement (including its flight) in any capacity before disembarking. What's more, if you charge the vehicle itself into combat, you're still unable to use the melee weapons of the passengers.

Not that turn, but you can still use it in previous turns.

 vipoid wrote:

 Don Savik wrote:
You get an extra 3 inches from disembarking, and eldar might have 7 inch movement base probably.

So, a 2" loss from last edition then. More if they've lost Fleet.

Hmm, 6" before Charging versus 3+7" before Charging. Where is the 2"? Or were you considering a Run and Charge which will probably be converted to an Advance and Charge ability for null difference?

 vipoid wrote:
No, they really don't. They're supposed to be using ultra-fast transports that are open-topped to allow for fast disembarking. And that amounts to . . . no advantages whatsoever over a unit that charges out of a Rhino.

So far as we know. We don't have the Raider's full datasheet yet, do we?

Have we actually recieved any info about assault vehicles?
If not it's possible that the assault vehicles have a rule that allows models to disembark then shoot and charge at the end of the movement phase or overrides it in another way altogether.

Now that anything can hurt anything parking your Rhinos in front of a couple of units of Guardsmen or Tau to wait a turn is begging for trouble, on the other hand one of Martel's sentiments about 7th edition MCs and GMCs vs Vehicles comes to mind - having a tiny chance to hurt something threatening usually encourages people to waste shots on it, while having no chance stops even the stupid from shooting at things.
If your opponent wastes an entire round of shooting on Rhinos they aren't shooting at the unprotected fast units that might be every bit as threatening, of course there's always the chance that the dice decide to kick you in the nuts but that's the game we play.
Target priority is going to be a properly big deal in this edition.

What are you talking about losing 2 inches you can't run and charge. Also fleet is irrelevant because you cant run and charge.

Before: you can move vehicle and disembark
now: you have to disembark and then move vehicle

Its really not THAT big of a change. We'll learn to adapt.

so I have a question.

If your transport is loaded with a full unit (s) and it assaults. The enemy can overwatch. What if that overwatch kills the transport and most of the units inside survive.

1. In the midst of your enemy what are the specifics of deploying the survivors?

2. The survivors are now NOT in a transport so is there a technicality that would NOW permit them to assault?

Or is there some phase criteria that prohibits this?

3.What about your next turn if your transport survived. You wish to disembark. How does that work with the transport perhaps surrounded by enemy units. ???

any clarifications known....please share

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Have we actually recieved any info about assault vehicles?
If not it's possible that the assault vehicles have a rule that allows models to disembark then shoot and charge at the end of the movement phase or overrides it in another way altogether.

Also a potentiality, some Assault Vehicles may have the internal ability to allow Disembarking AFTER the Vehicle Moves...

Too many tiny details are unknown until we have the datasheets in hand. In fact, I do believe that all those Open-Topped and otherwise Assault Vehicles won't have anything in the 14 page rulebook giving them any benefit. It will all be on the datasheet. And a Dark Elf Raider, Ork Trukk, and Land Raider Crusader may all handle the situation very differently.

 vipoid wrote:
The new transport rules seem really counter-intuitive.

Let's say I've got a unit of Incubi. They're slow buggers, so I'll put them on a Raider to help them get into combat.

"Okay, turn 2, I'll Move my Raider forward and then disembark my Incubi."
"You can't - their transport moved this turn."
"What?"
"Units can't disembark if their transport moves."
"But that's it's whole function! It's a *transport*. It has literally one job - to move units around the battlefield."
"Them's the rules."
"So, if I want move my Incubi, I first have to get them out of their transport and then have them walk up the battlefield. At which point my now-empty transport can move, the driver giving them a friendly wave as he passes them."
"Yep. Don't worry though - you can also assault units directly with your transport."
"Ah, that's more like it. Okay, I'll assault your marine squad with my Incubi Raider."
"Okay. Now the units inside it get to shoot me."
"Wait, what? You mean they can't attack you with melee weapons?"
"Nope."
"And they can't get out to join the combat either?"
"Nope."
"So, the benefit of assaulting a unit with a vehicle is that I can fire the unit's *guns* at it."
"Yep."
"The same guns they could have fired anyway, had I not bothered charging?"
"Those are the ones."
"Well, I sure am glad that my melee unit can do bugger all when their transport is in melee, whilst my shooting units can blaze away both in melee and at a distance. I'm also super glad that I have these great transports to help get my Incubi to combat. Imagine if they had to walk up the battlefield or stand gormlessly around on top of a transport that's sitting right in the midst of their enemies."

I'm trying to understand what exactly your complaint is here.

Turn 1, move your transport at max speed toward the unit you want to assault. Your incubi sit inside the transport for the duration of turn 1. Turn 2, your incubi disembark. Your transport charges the unit you want to assault to soak up overwatch, your incubi charge immediately after. Congratulations, it's turn 2 and your incubi are in combat.

Glad to see you know the Raider's movement stat, so you can say for sure that it'll cross the board in one turn!

Yeah it's amazing what having a brain lets you accomplish.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Glad to see you know the Raider's movement stat, so you can say for sure that it'll cross the board in one turn!

His point still stands. Vipoids argument was a really bad exercise in completely ignoring how to use something properly.

 admironheart wrote:
so I have a question.

If your transport is loaded with a full unit (s) and it assaults. The enemy can overwatch. What if that overwatch kills the transport and most of the units inside survive.

1. In the midst of your enemy what are the specifics of deploying the survivors?

2. The survivors are now NOT in a transport so is there a technicality that would NOW permit them to assault?

Or is there some phase criteria that prohibits this?

3.What about your next turn if your transport survived. You wish to disembark. How does that work with the transport perhaps surrounded by enemy units. ???

any clarifications known....please share

so no one has any thoughts what the rules state about a destroyed transport and its passengers. I hate game rules that models get removed for no reason just because there is no room to place them 'legally'