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Yeah, the Azrael kill bubble gunline thing is pretty solid, but one problem I had in a recent game was having 30 Ork Boyz use Da Jump and then assault into the dreads. They only did one wound to one of them, but on the next turn the dreads had to lose their shooting to back away so my other units could clear out the boyz. What kind of units work well as bubble wrap for Azzy and friends?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
What kind of units work well as bubble wrap for Azzy and friends?

cheap: Scouts

expensive: Deathwing Knights

So I have been working on a 1500 point Vanguard list for DA. I'm hoping to put pressure on one side of my opponents army with the bikes/talon/termies/razor while my shooty back field takes out key targets. What do you all think?

Azrael

Scout Squad x5 - Snipers, ML
Tactical Squad x5 - Flamer, Combi Flamer

Deathwing Terminators x5 - Plasma Cannon
Venerable Dread - ML, TL Lascannon
Venerable Dread - ML, TL Lascannon

Ravenwing Bike Squad x6 - Flamer x2, Powerfist

Ravenwing Dark Talon

Razorback - TL Assault Cannon

1499 points

I'm wondering right away if the bikes just wouldn't be better as another five man tac with a razorback maybe tech'd out a little differently with plasma.

Can anyone tell me where in the Index: Imperium 1 is Balthasar from Dark Vengeance set?
I simply cant find him.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Balthasar

Araablane wrote:
Can anyone tell me where in the Index: Imperium 1 is Balthasar from Dark Vengeance set?
I simply cant find him.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Balthasar

he's just a Company Master. No special rules. That said, he probably will have a dataslate with his name on it in the repackaged Dark Vengeance box.

 axisofentropy wrote:

Araablane wrote:
Can anyone tell me where in the Index: Imperium 1 is Balthasar from Dark Vengeance set?
I simply cant find him.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Balthasar

he's just a Company Master. No special rules. That said, he probably will have a dataslate with his name on it in the repackaged Dark Vengeance box.

I thought the same but there is no Company master in the index, or im just blind?

Has anyone else noticed that Venerable Dreadnought's are Deathwing models?
This means Belial makes them reroll all misses.This means if you throw a twin-lascannon/ML on one, it's rerolling hits on a 3+ with it's lascannons when it moves.

Araablane wrote:
I thought the same but there is no Company master in the index, or im just blind?

On page 107 it says to use the Captain dataslate for a Company Master.

labmouse42 wrote:Has anyone else noticed that Venerable Dreadnought's are Deathwing models?
This means Belial makes them reroll all misses.This means if you throw a twin-lascannon/ML on one, it's rerolling hits on a 3+ with it's lascannons when it moves.

Belial lets them reroll misses, and a 2 is not a miss until the -1 modifier is applied AFTER the re-roll. So it's the same effect as any Captain letting them re-roll 1's.

Belial does help Dark Angels Librarians tho...

 axisofentropy wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:Has anyone else noticed that Venerable Dreadnought's are Deathwing models?
This means Belial makes them reroll all misses.This means if you throw a twin-lascannon/ML on one, it's rerolling hits on a 3+ with it's lascannons when it moves.

Belial lets them reroll misses, and a 2 is not a miss until the -1 modifier is applied AFTER the re-roll. So it's the same effect as any Captain letting them re-roll 1's.
Belial does help Dark Angels Librarians tho...

Thanks for the catch. That's still not bad.
I was debating a list with 2 dreads, Belial, and 3 units of deathwing deep striking. The dreads provide long range support, and the termies appear where they need to.

I'm also really impressed by the ancient. It increases the melee damage output by 50%. When combined with Belial, it means a 10 man terminator squad with 9 PFs, is doing this vs MEQ.
(3/4 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 27 attacks = 2025/144 (14.06) plus
(8/9 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 4 attacks = 160/108 (1.48).
This is a total of over 15 wounds per round to a MEQ squad. That's crazy overkill. If you run the numbers against tanks, you will get similar results.

The hitting 3/4 of the time with Belial and getting 3 attacks with the ancient are massive buffs to deathwing.
Edit : Does the Anclient and Asmodai stack? Would that be 4 attacks base per model and 5 for the serg?

So what are the units of choice to go in the Azreal death blob? Dreads, razors, some mix? I assume you need to also either teleport terminators or get some bikes to handle nuisances or objectives down field yes?

Do we guard it with scouts, or maybe small tactical squads with double flamers to try and speed bump +and burn) charging units?

Also, if you're taking a Deathwing ancient to boost your terminators do you keep him stock, cheap out with the claws, or spring for the shield and hammer? Does the answer change if he's by Belial?

I usually use Dreads and a Las Predator with Azrael. If there's room to put Azrael and those units next to a ruin, I put some Las Devastators up there. Of course, that makes more of a gunline list, but the more stuff in his bubble the better.

Hmm. I have 4 dreads I was stockpiling for whatever reason a ways back so that kinda works. Kinda fluffs out like a council of ancients taking the field.

So I assume smacking a darkshroud and maybe a primaris Lt as a cherry on top couldn't hurt. I'll have to play around with what fits in the 6" bubble.

Can't go wrong with an LT. Darkshround would be nice as well, but good luck getting all of that to get all of the benefits (there's only so much room for all those models to be within 6" of each other).

I'm thinking Darkshrouds will be necessary for Ravenwing lists, as they are almost as expensive as Terminators (if they have special weapons) yet are just as easy to kill if not more so. Unfortunately, the more I look at the index the more I'm convinced that the days of competitive pure-Ravenwing lists are over. That being said, the flyers are actually looking BOSS for the first time in, like, ever.

labmouse42 wrote: Does the Anclient and Asmodai stack? Would that be 4 attacks base per model and 5 for the serg?

yes and yes! Asmodai will probably ride in every Land Raider and Drop Pod I ever field.

GrimDork wrote:So what are the units of choice to go in the Azreal death blob? Dreads, razors, some mix? I assume you need to also either teleport terminators or get some bikes to handle nuisances or objectives down field yes?

This is a great question I intend to answer after next week's ATC tournament. Centurions aren't an option, so Predators would be the obvious answer but 102 points is just too much. Razorbacks are most efficient, but it's obviously hard to squeeze so many both within 6" and within the fire lane you want. Dreadnoughts are probably the sweet spot: 5 points more than a razorback holding twice as many weapons, easy to fit in bubbles, 8 wounds doesn't degrade and is mitigated by Azreal's 4++ and dark shroud's -1, and can land more Melee blows than tanks.

With re-rolls, I don't think the Venerable dread is worth the extra 20 points, but I'll math it out. With the 6+ FNP it effectively has 9.3 Wounds...

But the best parking lot may be a mixture. Maybe a Land Raider up front, 2-4 dreads on the sides, darkshroud in the back? Maybe a razorback or two full of Devastators? Do Land Speeders have a niche here with these buffs?

And what options will Primaris stuff provide? efficient transports full of Hellblasters? Primaris dreadnought? Rumored Primaris devastators to fill the Centurion-shaped hole in the Dark Angels faction?

GrimDork wrote:Do we guard it with scouts, or maybe small tactical squads with double flamers to try and speed bump +and burn) charging units?

You know I'm hot for Deathwing Knights, but I don't know what's the best answer here. Jump pack Assault Squads? Imperial Knights?

GrimDork wrote:Also, if you're taking a Deathwing ancient to boost your terminators do you keep him stock, cheap out with the claws, or spring for the shield and hammer? Does the answer change if he's by Belial?

Storm Shield every day. It's a lifesaver. Might even be the best choice for Belial, tho that Sword of Silence is hot for the -1 to Hit.

Bonus pic of my Ancient I just finished:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 axisofentropy wrote:
With re-rolls, I don't think the Venerable dread is worth the extra 20 points, but I'll math it out. With the 6+ FNP it effectively has 9.3 Wounds...

Let's say the best dread loadout for a bubbled parking lot is twin lascannon and twin autocannon. That totals, um, 30 melta bombs plus 3 points. A Venerable Dreadnought with the same wargear is about 11.6% more expensive. Does the +1 to hit and 6+ FNP justify it's cost?

With re-rolls from a Chapter Master, how many more hits will it land?
BS 3+ with re-roll lands 32 of 36 hits.
BS 2+ with re-roll lands 35 of 36 hits, an 8.6% increase.
That's marginal, but it also makes the shooting more consistent and predictable, which competitive players value.

The 6+ FNP makes it 16% more durable, so yes the Venerable Dread is probably worth the extra points. (unless your threat model contains only Imperial Knights' Reaper Chainswords!)

Another factor harder to quantify: Concentrating your investment into a smaller footprint also has some value. It's easier to fit 8 Venerable Dreads in a bubble than 9 normal dreads for the same price.

Ancient and Asmodai stack...I guess why wouldn't they? Smashy smashy terminators!

Good shout on the storm shield, and nice looking Ancient, I'm thinking back banner is the only way to go and still have the paid for weapons.

I guess I'll see what I can cram into the auras, gonna run out of dreads before I do space probably.

Let's also consider the Forgeworld Mortis dreadnought. It's 5 points more than the basic dread, but can equip both twin lascannons. That's many more Wounds against tough models, but less against 1 and 2 Wound models.

 axisofentropy wrote:

BS 2+ with re-roll lands 35 of 36 hits, an 8.6% increase.
That's marginal, but it also makes the shooting more consistent and predictable, which competitive players value.

The 6+ FNP makes it 16% more durable, so yes the Venerable Dread is probably worth the extra points. (unless your threat model contains only Imperial Knights' Reaper Chainswords!)

Another factor harder to quantify: Concentrating your investment into a smaller footprint also has some value. It's easier to fit 8 Venerable Dreads in a bubble than 9 normal dreads for the same price.

Ven dreads can also move and shoot their heavy weapons at a 3+ instead of a 4+. That's pretty significant.
With rerolling 1s to hit, they hit (1/9) + (6/9) = 7/9 (77.77%)

Normal dreads, when rerolling 1s to hit are this.
(1/12 + 6/12) = 7/12 (58.33333 % to hit)

That's a pretty big jump in damage output for only ~13% cost. Sure, there might times where your models stand still, but you will be moving often enough to make this matter.

Edit
Compare the ven dread with twin LC and twin AC to a squad of hacos (as they can take ACs).
The havocs, to have 8 wounds clock in at 194 for the two AC and two LC options. The ven dread hits more often, has a higher toughness, and can move and shoot with the same accuracy as the static havocs.
It's a really good deal if you are looking for raw firepower.

Agree with the above. I'm leaning more and more towards Ven Dread as a backfield staple. That may change if Relic rules get "fixed," but it sure is tough to ignore that kind of firepower and durability. Backed up with Azrael and/or with CCWs, they're pretty unlikely to get dropped on, too.

BTW, enjoy your new Deathwing dudes, labmouse. Hopefully they serve you well!

edit: Also, what's this I hear about DA flyer spam being a popular option? I suppose I can see how multiple Dark Talons could really tear some stuff up for a reasonable cost. Nephilim are not too shabby for the price, either. Perhaps worth a shot for those of us trying to get a competitive army going.

I've only got one venerable dread so far but I'm definitely getting another. They are so incredibly dependable with Azrael in both damage and defensive ability. My backfield is going to be two ven dreads and a pred annihilator. Now that I feel I have armor/monsters figured out. Need a way to fit in some anti horde. I'm thinking razorbacks with twin assault cannons filled with flamer stocked tac squads and maybe a dark talon. The Dark Talon seems really solid this edition. I cannot wait for the model I ordered to come in. It's good multi purposed vehicle.

I've only been looking at the Dark Angels for a short time, but there are a few things I've picked up. As I have recently acquired a Deathwing army, it will focus on Deathwing.
These are just my casual observations.

Why Deathwing?
There are a few reasons the deathwing army is the best 'terminator' army IMHO. It is not the cheapest -- that goes to CSM terminators. Deathwatch terminators can bring a lot more firepower by stacking on 3 heavy weapons per 5 terminators.
Deathwing shines in it's ability to benefit from fantastic auras, and the ability to mix and match weapons in it's deathwing squads. Deathwing knights are the superior assault terminator unit.


Unforgiven
This is a rock solid ability that has normal marine players crying themselves to sleep (at least until the new codex comes out)
Automatically passing morale tests means you can bring large squads of deathwing and not worry about losing 7 of them in a single round. Even more marines are prone to failing badly given those odds, where deathwing just don't care.
The way 8th edition was made, there is an advantage to running large units. You can already split fire, you reduce your drops, and you make it harder to give up first blood.
Large units can also increase your footprint, making it easier to take advantage of auras.


Azrael
This guy is amazing for his buff auras. Not many units give reroll all hits. First glance shows that Pedro and Marneus are the only others.
Azrael also gives a 4++ to all models near him. This is amazing with dreads. The reason for this is that most weapons that can hurt the T7 at range have a greater rend than a -1.
Take an enemy LC. Instead of saving on a 6+, the dread has a 4+ to make the save, greatly increasing it's overall durability.
This does not help against massive small arms fire, like conscripts blobs shooting at the dread, but those are not the big threat to the dread -- multi-wound weapons are.

As an added bonus, Azrael is a beatstick. Swinging 5 times at STR 6, with -3 rend and D3 wounds is enough to make even daemon princes sweat.
He also comes with a combi-plas, just because he was not good enough by himself.

Overall, this guy is a 'must have' more many builds.


Belial
What I like about Belial is that he gives all Deathwing rerolls 'to hit'. If you are running lots of terminators or Librarians it's a nice advantage.
His Sword of Silence is also much better than it appears at first glance. It will be hitting 35/36 of the time. It also wounds non-vehicles on a 2+, making it great against enemy terminators, great daemons, etc. The -3 rend and 2 wounds is rock solid, meaning that Belial can pretty consistently throw wounds on a target.
Belial can also drop in with some knights if you are wanting to deep strike an assault force behind enemy lines.
Overall, he's a good choice. IMHO, Azrael is just a little better for only 40 more points -- but Belial is not a bad choice at all.


Asmodai & Deathwing Ancient
This guys are force multipliers if you are running deathwing units. Having both of them plus Belial/Azrael means that your deathwing become close combat monsters.
I showed some of the math earlier -- 9 powerfists/chainfists smashing with 4 attacks each hitting 75% of the time will wreck face. This is what it will do against a knight, for example.
(3/4 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (5/6 failed save) * 36 attacks * 2 wounds per attack = 22.5 wounds done. The power sword should pluck off another .61 of a wound.


Deathwing Apothecary
This guy runs you 75 points, and you can use him to restore 50 points deathwing models 50% of the time.
He will likely have ~4 turns to be effective in a game. (You might go first, you might not have any models to revive, etc)
This means you can expect him to bring back ~100 points of deathwing models. Since they come back at 1 wound it's not as good, but it's still not bad.
Effectively, this guy will pay for himself in most games, making the model effectively free.


Deathwing Champion
I'm not sold on this guy. If he is by the attack buffs, he's getting 7 attacks at STR 7, -4 AP, 2 DMG -- which can put some hurting on most targets.
The thing is, in today's meta of 150 conscripts -- it's just not that amazing. If the melta starts showing a lot more MEQ, then this guy becomes great fast. For example, it will rip apart bike squads.


Deathwing Terminators
Terminators have gotten so much better in 8th edition. The 2+ save is more valuable than it was before. They have also doubled in firepower and doubled in wounds.
8 storm bolters and 2 assault cannons within 12" of an enemy with Belial supporting results in 17.50 dead GEQ a turn. Fully buffed, they can also kill another 24.4 GEQ in assault, wiping 4/5 of a conscript blob in one round. Yes, those situations are very unlikely to happen in a real game, but the illustration is they have decent damage output. Not fantastic damage output like Scions, but decent.
These guys, in every way, are better than their imperial versions. They come with unforgiven, they can grab a 'watcher in the dark' for 5 points.
They also can swap out any model with a TH/SS or dual LC. This lets you mix/match your terminator squads to include a few TH/SS models inside. If the unit is hit by a plasma cannon, take the hit on the TH/SS termie. If it's from a heavy bolter, take it on a SB/PF termie.


Deathwing Knights
Deathwing knights are brokenly good, and a prime example of how GW missed the ball on perfect balance. Deathwing knights are superior to C:SM assault terminators in every way.
The flail of the unforgiven is an amazing weapon. It's STR 6 is perfect for squishing T3 GEQ, or even vehicles. It's exceptionally good vs soft targets because the wounds carry over. This means that 5 fully buffed knights with flails will kill 31 guard. On average they will also do 10 wounds a round to a rhino.
The Mace of Absolution makes thunder hammers cry themselves to sleep. They are only -2 instead of -3 rend, but they are not -1 to hit. This means that they are slightly better against armor -- and cost 11 points less than the TH/SS terminator. The only target where the TH is better is against 2+ save targets, like Land Raiders or other terminators.
I've seen how effective the threat of 5 knights deep striking can be. It forces your enemy to adjust their lines, and I can see a spot for 5 of these guys in every army.


Dreadnoughts
Excellent fire platforms, given their ability to reroll to hits. Normally I advocate putting a DCCW on each one as to not waste the attacks -- but in a deathwing army there are enough power fists to where I think you can get away with not bringing them on these guys.
I really like these guys more than predators as fire platforms for their smaller base. Getting 5 of them wrapped around Azrael is very doable.


DarkShrounds
Imagine this is a force field around your units. The buff they provide is very solid as a -1 to hit will reduce the amount of incoming damage from 16.66% less to half. Smart opponents will just shoot the darkshround first.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I've only been looking at the Dark Angels for a short time, but there are a few things I've picked up. As I have recently acquired a Deathwing army, it will focus on Deathwing.
These are just my casual observations.

This is great! I've added this post to this thread's OP, and I've also updated it with my own unit summaries:

 axisofentropy wrote:

Spoiler:

UNITS that are now much better and i will field:

* Deathwing Knights are the stars of the faction. They effectively pay 18 points for a mace that's generally better than a Thunder Hammer, and Storm Shields keep them on the table.

* Belial and a Deathwing Ancient are the best characters to join Deathwing Knights, nearly doubling their damage output.

* But if mobility isn't a factor, Asmodai is the star buffing HQ, giving all Dark Angels infantry the same bonuses Belial and the Ancient give the Deathwing. The +1 Attack even stacks! And bonus -1 Leadership to enemies.

* Azreal is probably the best Chapter Master (who isn't also a Primarch.) He's best deployed managing a parking lot in the backfield. Park him next to Dreadnoughts (including Venerable and Mortis!), Razorbacks, Predators, etc. Dark Angels in his 6" bubble re-roll misses and are protected by the 4++. See this recent post: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/727176.page#9478048

* Speaking of, Dreadnoughts are excellent shooting weapon platforms. 8 Wounds is tough but doesn't degrade. Note that upgrading to a Venerable is worth the premium cost. And consider a Forgeworld Mortis for all the Lascannons.

* Scouts are still an incredible value. Conscripts wish they could deploy 9" away from enemies.

* The Darkshroud's -1 to hit bubble is even better than it first sounds. It effectively makes nearby Dark Angels 1/3 more durable against BS 4+ shooting and 25% more durable against 3+ shooting. A must for any parking lot or Ravenwing army.

UNITS i want to playtest and give a chance:

* Ravenwing still offer mobility, we'll see how valuable that is in new missions. Sammeal is good in this context.

* Dark Angel librarians must use Interromancy which is not as good as Librarius (which I think is OP). But Interromancy can help against powerful units like Knights. ditto Ezekiel who finally gets an invulnerable save. needs playtesting.

* Deathwing Terminators are not as good as Deathwing Knights and you're not gonna convince me otherwise. You're paying for those power fists so they must reach melee to make their points back, and Knights do Melee better. No, Storm bolters and assault cannons do not make them as good: other units can shoot hoards more efficiently (hint: razorbacks and dreads.)

* Missile Launchers are now very good, and Devastator Squads may be the best way to field them, but they need range and cover for protection.

* Assault Squads and Company veterans are worth considering. A veteran with two free chainswords has 4 Attacks!

* land raider doesn't have a clear advantage over Rhinos or razorbacks now, and if i want to park a monster on an objective i'll bring a Knight. The lascannon Land Raider may still may have a place. The Crusader is not enough of a threat once empty, and the Redeemer will find itself unable to shoot when mooks run up and tag it.

* Not yet sure how valuable flyers are, but they probably have a niche somewhere.

UNITS that will stay on the shelf:

* tactical squads still worse than scouts unless I'm totally missing the mark on transports. I mean they may compliment razorbacks if they're as good as i think?

* Predators?? like razorbacks but without transport and much more expensive for no good reason.

* Inceptors, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds are all too expensive for now, but could fill broad niches with points decreases.

* land speeders: 85 points is 20 too many, compare to razorback or dreadnought value.

* dreadnoughts with short-range weapons can't ride in normal drop pods, and the Forgeworld pods are too expensive.

* who would i even want to put in a drop pod??

* The -1 To Hit when moving with Heavy weapons means the Attack Bike can't leverage its mobility. Ditto the Landspeeders.

* interrogator-chaplains not worth premium over chaplains (except Asmodai who's incredible.)

I think only the Knight Master gets a Flail of the Unforgiven, not the rest of the DW Knights. They get the maces. Believe me, these guys are still rock solid contenders and beat vanilla Assault Termies by a country mile. Also, now I'm going to have to pick up Asmodai. I never bothered before because he sucked, but now I think I need him. He's the only DA special character I don't have.

 labmouse42 wrote:


Unforgiven
This is a rock solid ability that has normal marine players crying themselves to sleep (at least until the new codex comes out)
Automatically passing morale tests means you can bring large squads of deathwing and not worry about losing 7 of them in a single round.

Well yeah, you don't have to worry about the morale check after losing 7 terminators in a single squad in 1 round, but you got much worse issues to deal with instead.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Deathwing Knights
Deathwing knights are brokenly good, and a prime example of how GW missed the ball on perfect balance. Deathwing knights are superior to C:SM assault terminators in every way.
The flail of the unforgiven is an amazing weapon. It's STR 6 is perfect for squishing T3 GEQ, or even vehicles. It's exceptionally good vs soft targets because the wounds carry over. This means that 5 fully buffed knights with flails will kill 31 guard. On average they will also do 10 wounds a round to a rhino.

Only the Knight Master gets the flail, the rest of the knights use the maces. 5 flails would be ridiculously OP in CC, and they are already good in CC as it is.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Also, now I'm going to have to pick up Asmodai. I never bothered before because he sucked, but now I think I need him. He's the only DA special character I don't have.

He still sucks, but his auras are awesome now!!

bobafett012 wrote:
Well yeah, you don't have to worry about the morale check after losing 7 terminators in a single squad in 1 round, but you got much worse issues to deal with instead.

Suffering 350 points of model damage in an alpha strike sucks, but it happens.
Last night my opponent had 4 Kastelan robots with triple phosphor blasters. That's 72 STR 6, -2 AP shots with Cawl behind them letting them reroll 1s. He also had a Cerastus Knight-Atropos and 6 destroyers throwing another 30 heavy grav cannon shots.
That is completely capable of killing 7 terminators in a round. Unforgiven means that there is no way they will roll badly and lose another 150 points of terminators in the morale phase.

bobafett012 wrote:
Only the Knight Master gets the flail, the rest of the knights use the maces. 5 flails would be ridiculously OP in CC, and they are already good in CC as it is.

Thanks for the catch.

Convince me to field terminators in units larger than 5 models.

More units means more charge rolls.

I haven't tried a 10 man unit of deathwing yet but it is going to happen soon. As far as i can see the main advantages are increased value from the unforgiven rule, less deployment choices so increased chance of going first, a much more durable unit that will be a considerable threat that your opponent will have to react to and lastly its easier in my experience to cover one unit with character buffs than two.

Yes there is an element of "all eggs in one basket" here but overall i believe it will be worth it. hopefully ill be able to try this out tomorrow and report back.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Convince me to field terminators in units larger than 5 models.
More units means more charge rolls.

8th edition encourages you to field larger units.
* You can split fire. There is no 'wasted shots' like in earlier editions
* You lower your drop count, greatly increasing the chance of going first
* You lower your changes of giving up first blood
* It helps you get in auras. If you have 1 terminator within 6" of Azrael, the other 9 can be outside and you can still gain the perks of the 4++ and reroll to hits.
* In missions that use kill points, fewer squads means fewer KPs you give up. (This is partially addressed by the ETC)
* 3 dreadnaughts starting on the table would let you drop 30 terminators in from deep strike.

There are some advantages to MSU
* You can spread your squads out
* You sometimes don't need more than 5 terminators. Generally 5 knights can do the job.
* You are less likely to have models away from being able to effect their target.

At the end of the day, it's up to you. In the ways that I see 8th edition, larger squads are the way to go.

I hadn't considered adding in even a single ss/th to block high AP shots. Costs a few more points and eats into your storm bolter output but blocking a TEQ killer like overcharged plasma, melta, etc could be a big deal.

That's seems like a reasonable plan. I may have to give that a try. Saving yourself a Terminator or two could really make a huge difference, and if your tank guy survives, he may get to eat a few wounds against some combat monster your opponent throws at them, as well. I was thinking you could divert shots by having a unit of DWK drop nearby, but split fire eliminates that plan, for the most part. That is, I'd imagine the anti-TEQ stuff would train on the Termies, while everything else went to the Knights.

 labmouse42 wrote:

* It helps you get in auras. If you have 1 terminator within 6" of Azrael, the other 9 can be outside and you can still gain the perks of the 4++ and reroll to hits.

Sadly, the 4++ benefit specifies that models within 6" of Azrael get it, so no joy there. However, the To Hit Rerolls happen if even one model from a unit is within 6", which is awesome! Believe me, Azrael is still probably the best thing in our codex.

I'm going to have to consider the big termie blob. Seems reasonably good. Problem is, I just played against a nasty list with 8 Nurgle Daemon Princes that hid behind a bunch of Nurglings. So 8 Smites a turn, plus a bunch of Warp Bolters. Smites are the ultimate TEQ killer, as it ignores all those fancy 2+ armor or storm shield saves. And if you're running a lot of Termies, you don't have the wounds to spare since they are super expensive, and that big blob of termies can only take 1 Watcher in the Dark. I'm starting to wonder if running Libbys is a good idea just to possibly deny some Smites (and throw out a few of my own). Now, in my game I wasn't running any Deathwing, but I imagine if I was it would have gone even worse for me.