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 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just played against a nasty list with 8 Nurgle Daemon Princes that hid behind a bunch of Nurglings. So 8 Smites a turn, plus a bunch of Warp Bolters. Smites are the ultimate TEQ killer, as it ignores all those fancy 2+ armor or storm shield saves. And if you're running a lot of Termies, you don't have the wounds to spare since they are super expensive, and that big blob of termies can only take 1 Watcher in the Dark. I'm starting to wonder if running Libbys is a good idea just to possibly deny some Smites (and throw out a few of my own). Now, in my game I wasn't running any Deathwing, but I imagine if I was it would have gone even worse for me.

I played a 8 nurgle prince list for a few games, and it is really nasty.

It's got a few weaknesses. Princes are not the best vehicle killers. They are good, but when compared to a bloodthirster or GUO, they just don't pack the punch. The difference is they only do 2 wounds per swipe instead of d3.

If someone is using princes for smite spam -- they are doing it wrong. Princes should be in assault every round. Of course, princes are afraid to assault terminator squads because they are saving on a 4+ and have a returning PF that is wounding on a 3 and causing ~2 wounds. Princes are to expensive for smite spam.
If you are having serous problems with smite spam, take a blob squad of conscripts with a lord commissar behind them. 50 conscript plus a commissar clocks in at just over 200 points and gives your terminators a nice buffer from smite.
If you are concerned at all that it's not fluffy...your playing someone who has brought 8 DPs. The fluff has left the building.

Nurglings should be shredded by bolters. Bolters wound them on a 2+. You need to do ~8 wounds to wipe a stand out. Nurglings are great for deep strike denial, for engaging lone devastators or LRBTs, or generally being a pain in the ass, but they won't hurt terminators at all.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Convince me to field terminators in units larger than 5 models.

More units means more charge rolls.

I think taking Deathwing in larger than 5 man squads is a terrible idea outside of allying them into another force or just in a general Dark Angels force. In a Deathwing heavy army, very bad idea. Cons far outweigh the Pros in that scenario.

FAQ for first two Forge World books. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/09/forge-world-faq-july9gw-homepage-post-4/

The Mortis dreadnought can now take an additional Cyclone Missile Launcher. I think that makes it the most efficient heavy weapon platform for parking lot armies. 30 melta bomb points of weapons on a 15 melta bomb point model is a hell of a ratio. Azreal and a dark shroud can protect that investment.

Nice to see them fix the Relic LOW rule - now we can take that Spartan and not need another non-Relic LOW to do it.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Nice to see them fix the Relic LOW rule - now we can take that Spartan and not need another non-Relic LOW to do it.

...and there was much rejoicing!

MilkmanAl wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Nice to see them fix the Relic LOW rule - now we can take that Spartan and not need another non-Relic LOW to do it.

...and there was much rejoicing!

Glad to see them fix it so quickly, it was so foolish that it must have been an oversight. Gonna buy one for my green marines now!

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just played against a nasty list with 8 Nurgle Daemon Princes that hid behind a bunch of Nurglings. So 8 Smites a turn, plus a bunch of Warp Bolters. Smites are the ultimate TEQ killer, as it ignores all those fancy 2+ armor or storm shield saves. And if you're running a lot of Termies, you don't have the wounds to spare since they are super expensive, and that big blob of termies can only take 1 Watcher in the Dark. I'm starting to wonder if running Libbys is a good idea just to possibly deny some Smites (and throw out a few of my own). Now, in my game I wasn't running any Deathwing, but I imagine if I was it would have gone even worse for me.

I played a 8 nurgle prince list for a few games, and it is really nasty.

It's got a few weaknesses. Princes are not the best vehicle killers. They are good, but when compared to a bloodthirster or GUO, they just don't pack the punch. The difference is they only do 2 wounds per swipe instead of d3.

If someone is using princes for smite spam -- they are doing it wrong. Princes should be in assault every round. Of course, princes are afraid to assault terminator squads because they are saving on a 4+ and have a returning PF that is wounding on a 3 and causing ~2 wounds. Princes are to expensive for smite spam.
If you are having serous problems with smite spam, take a blob squad of conscripts with a lord commissar behind them. 50 conscript plus a commissar clocks in at just over 200 points and gives your terminators a nice buffer from smite.
If you are concerned at all that it's not fluffy...your playing someone who has brought 8 DPs. The fluff has left the building.

Nurglings should be shredded by bolters. Bolters wound them on a 2+. You need to do ~8 wounds to wipe a stand out. Nurglings are great for deep strike denial, for engaging lone devastators or LRBTs, or generally being a pain in the ass, but they won't hurt terminators at all.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. The thing about the Nurglings is, they deploy far forward of the Princes, meaning that for the first couple of turns I'm having to shoot at Nurglings while the Princes hide behind them and throw Smites out and shoot stuff with their Warp bolters. The Nurglings themselves did not cause a single wound to me in that game, but they enabled his Princes to get up close and personal after softening up a lot of my stuff with Smites, and they wrecked me from turn 3 on. I was tabled on turn 4. To be fair, I had some crappy luck in there and I really didn't play very well against it (my army was too spread out and I moved aggressively to engage as many Nurglings as possible, hoping to take them all out quickly, which didn't pan out). I was eating 8 Smites a turn for about 16 or more unsaveable wounds, plus a fair number of wounds from the warp bolters, so my army was getting pasted without me being able to do much about it. I think my opponent only failed to cast Smite like 3 times, and one of those he got anyway thanks to a command reroll. So that was pretty lucky, I guess. I could beat that list if I tailor against it, but then some other list would destroy me. I'm not sure what to do about it.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I just played against a nasty list with 8 Nurgle Daemon Princes that hid behind a bunch of Nurglings. So 8 Smites a turn, plus a bunch of Warp Bolters. Smites are the ultimate TEQ killer, as it ignores all those fancy 2+ armor or storm shield saves. And if you're running a lot of Termies, you don't have the wounds to spare since they are super expensive, and that big blob of termies can only take 1 Watcher in the Dark. I'm starting to wonder if running Libbys is a good idea just to possibly deny some Smites (and throw out a few of my own). Now, in my game I wasn't running any Deathwing, but I imagine if I was it would have gone even worse for me.

I played a 8 nurgle prince list for a few games, and it is really nasty.

It's got a few weaknesses. Princes are not the best vehicle killers. They are good, but when compared to a bloodthirster or GUO, they just don't pack the punch. The difference is they only do 2 wounds per swipe instead of d3.

If someone is using princes for smite spam -- they are doing it wrong. Princes should be in assault every round. Of course, princes are afraid to assault terminator squads because they are saving on a 4+ and have a returning PF that is wounding on a 3 and causing ~2 wounds. Princes are to expensive for smite spam.
If you are having serous problems with smite spam, take a blob squad of conscripts with a lord commissar behind them. 50 conscript plus a commissar clocks in at just over 200 points and gives your terminators a nice buffer from smite.
If you are concerned at all that it's not fluffy...your playing someone who has brought 8 DPs. The fluff has left the building.

Nurglings should be shredded by bolters. Bolters wound them on a 2+. You need to do ~8 wounds to wipe a stand out. Nurglings are great for deep strike denial, for engaging lone devastators or LRBTs, or generally being a pain in the ass, but they won't hurt terminators at all.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. The thing about the Nurglings is, they deploy far forward of the Princes, meaning that for the first couple of turns I'm having to shoot at Nurglings while the Princes hide behind them and throw Smites out and shoot stuff with their Warp bolters. The Nurglings themselves did not cause a single wound to me in that game, but they enabled his Princes to get up close and personal after softening up a lot of my stuff with Smites, and they wrecked me from turn 3 on. I was tabled on turn 4. To be fair, I had some crappy luck in there and I really didn't play very well against it (my army was too spread out and I moved aggressively to engage as many Nurglings as possible, hoping to take them all out quickly, which didn't pan out). I was eating 8 Smites a turn for about 16 or more unsaveable wounds, plus a fair number of wounds from the warp bolters, so my army was getting pasted without me being able to do much about it. I think my opponent only failed to cast Smite like 3 times, and one of those he got anyway thanks to a command reroll. So that was pretty lucky, I guess. I could beat that list if I tailor against it, but then some other list would destroy me. I'm not sure what to do about it.

Honestly, it seems like just another spammy, cheesy list, and I personally wouldn't want to play against it again. That doesn't answer your question if you're gung-ho on beating it, but it just doesn't sound like a good time. Just another example of players spamming one powerful unit over and over again, regardless of what edition we're playing.

I think you could compete against that with a balanced Deathwing list. It's definitely rough to take that many mortal wounds per turn, though. You'd have to get fancy. I'm betting a Ven Dread backfield could reliably take out at least 1 prince per turn, and a drop of ~10 stormbolter-toting Termies could probably dakka down another without much trouble. If you were fortunate with positioning, you could take out still another with a drop charge (supported by a CP reroll, if necessary). It's an uphill battle and bad matchup, for sure, but there are ways to win.

Glad to see them fix it so quickly, it was so foolish that it must have been an oversight. Gonna buy one for my green marines now!

Heck yeah! I plan on rolling one into battle most of the time, for sure.

Double post - please ignore

I've come around to this Azrael/Dread combo, and I'm trying to figure out what I can cram in a Spartan to accompany them. So far, I have a core of the following:

Azrael - 180
3 Ven Dreads - twin las, ccw - 540
Spartan - 2 quad las, twin hb, multi-melta - 524
Belial - 150

That leaves 604 pts to play with. I'd like to squeeze an Ancient and an Apothecary in that space, which would cost 204 pts (127 for a chainfisting Ancient and 77 for the Apothecary). That'd allow for 8 DWK in the Spartan along with Belial and the elite characters. That's my leading option, though I'd also like to remove the Apoth and Ancient and shrink the DWK unit in favor of a Termie squad to deep strike on something for some extra horde control.

Ideally, I'd keep Azrael near enough the Spartan to keep it in 4++ range since that'll obviously be priority one for opponents. With so few units, the overall strategy is pretty straightforward: roll up the field, blast stuff with lascannons, and unload a world of hurt on something that deserves it once the Spartan is close enough. Thoughts?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Nurglings should be shredded by bolters. Bolters wound them on a 2+. You need to do ~8 wounds to wipe a stand out. Nurglings are great for deep strike denial, for engaging lone devastators or LRBTs, or generally being a pain in the ass, but they won't hurt terminators at all.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. The thing about the Nurglings is, they deploy far forward of the Princes, meaning that for the first couple of turns I'm having to shoot at Nurglings while the Princes hide behind them and throw Smites out and shoot stuff with their Warp bolters. The Nurglings themselves did not cause a single wound to me in that game, but they enabled his Princes to get up close and personal after softening up a lot of my stuff with Smites, and they wrecked me from turn 3 on. I was tabled on turn 4. To be fair, I had some crappy luck in there and I really didn't play very well against it (my army was too spread out and I moved aggressively to engage as many Nurglings as possible, hoping to take them all out quickly, which didn't pan out). I was eating 8 Smites a turn for about 16 or more unsaveable wounds, plus a fair number of wounds from the warp bolters, so my army was getting pasted without me being able to do much about it. I think my opponent only failed to cast Smite like 3 times, and one of those he got anyway thanks to a command reroll. So that was pretty lucky, I guess. I could beat that list if I tailor against it, but then some other list would destroy me. I'm not sure what to do about it.

Firstly, the DP spam is a bad RPS for pure terminators. The fact that talons do 2 wounds a hit is bad news for terminators, as it means they are effectively 50 point models. If you are running pure deathwing, it might be fluffy, it's also a spammy army, and there will be bad matchups with any spam. DPs are one. I played my buddies bike army with DP army and tabled him 4 times in a row -- and he was rated the top marine player in the ITC for a good portion of last year.

The best solution is to run a conscript squad with a single commissar lord in front of your deathwing. Screens are a thing in 8th. Not only does it block smite spam, it also gives you protection against deep striking scions, it lets you throw bodies at objectives, it soaks up all kinds of incoming damage. It also counts as 2 drops, letting you deep strike in more units. And, the best thing, is that it's dirt cheap. 50 conscripts plus a commissar lord clocks in at just over 200 points, ensuring you have ~1800 points for your terminators. It's pretty cheap in RL prices too to get 50 guard.
Smite has to target the closest unit, no matter if they are in assault or not. Even if he attacks the guard with his nurglings, the conscripts will hold them in place. For giggles add 'iron hand' striken and a priest to your allied group to give the conscript blob 3 attacks each in assault and FRFSRF. Nothing is as shocking as having 15 guard throw 45 attacks at your daemons!!! That happened to me last weekend and I was like "WTF" as my GUO was taking tons of damage. Even hitting on 5s and wounding on 6s, with so many attacks they get through. It would also wreck nurglings day.
This would also give you 4 drops, allowing you to drop your terminators into the game where you wanted as a deep strike, which is a great option.

Another thing that makes me sweat bullets is someone throwing lascannons at my greater daemons. Even my GUO - who is my quarterback of my daemon force, it's not a good feeling with the LCs start flying. That's because they do 3.5 wounds per hit. Even though 1/3 of them will DR, those LCs that get through rack up fast. 4 LC hits is about 6 wounds on my GUO, halfway killing him. Do you know what could do this and wreck my daemon's day? 3 Twin-LC/Twin-AC ven dreads with azrael in the middle Princes also fear 5 PFs coming in -- especially with rerolling hits.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I've come around to this Azrael/Dread combo, and I'm trying to figure out what I can cram in a Spartan to accompany them. So far, I have a core of the following:

Azrael - 180
3 Ven Dreads - twin las, ccw - 540
Spartan - 2 quad las, twin hb, multi-melta - 524
Belial - 150

That leaves 604 pts to play with. I'd like to squeeze an Ancient and an Apothecary in that space, which would cost 204 pts (127 for a chainfisting Ancient and 77 for the Apothecary). That'd allow for 8 DWK in the Spartan along with Belial and the elite characters. That's my leading option, though I'd also like to remove the Apoth and Ancient and shrink the DWK unit in favor of a Termie squad to deep strike on something for some extra horde control.

Ideally, I'd keep Azrael near enough the Spartan to keep it in 4++ range since that'll obviously be priority one for opponents. With so few units, the overall strategy is pretty straightforward: roll up the field, blast stuff with lascannons, and unload a world of hurt on something that deserves it once the Spartan is close enough. Thoughts?

Do you need that many Lascannon shots in a list? That's 14 shots per turn right and unless you are going up against and all armoured/monster list you will run out of targets? That is allot of points for D6 wounds on 1-2 wound targets...

I am no expert however would it be worth looking at Autocannons for the Dreads jus to have a more balanced shooting phase?

It could also be challenging to score objective points as apart from the Spartan nothing else can quickly move around. I wonder if you would be better off dropping a Dread and squeezing in a unit of DWT, you can DS them in to grab an objective and they can still put out some pain in the shooting phase?

Definitely a thought. Mass hordes are a big problem for the list, to be sure. I like the ability to take out big scary stuff at range, though, since some of it can be fast or hiding in the back. I'm hoping that mass of bodies will go down to leadership, and I'll win a war of attrition.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Definitely a thought. Mass hordes are a big problem for the list, to be sure. I like the ability to take out big scary stuff at range, though, since some of it can be fast or hiding in the back. I'm hoping that mass of bodies will go down to leadership, and I'll win a war of attrition.

Yeah, as Gibs said, there is no reason you'd need to bring that many las cannons and then only run 600 points of actual terms. If you want more anti-tank, then drop the DCCWs and run either missiles or twin auto cannons as the other arm. that gives you around 1200 points for terms/apoths and such to work with. imo, you need at least 4 5 man squads of terms. Less than that gets real dicey. The only Deathwing lists that used to be somewhat successful with less squads did so because they ran tri LRCs filled with TH/SS terms and rushed across the table unscathed, and even that wasn't exactly "successful".

bobafett012 wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:
Definitely a thought. Mass hordes are a big problem for the list, to be sure. I like the ability to take out big scary stuff at range, though, since some of it can be fast or hiding in the back. I'm hoping that mass of bodies will go down to leadership, and I'll win a war of attrition.

Yeah, as Gibs said, there is no reason you'd need to bring that many las cannons and then only run 600 points of actual terms. If you want more anti-tank, then drop the DCCWs and run either missiles or twin auto cannons as the other arm. that gives you around 1200 points for terms/apoths and such to work with. imo, you need at least 4 5 man squads of terms. Less than that gets real dicey. The only Deathwing lists that used to be somewhat successful with less squads did so because they ran tri LRCs filled with TH/SS terms and rushed across the table unscathed, and even that wasn't exactly "successful".

The Spartan on its own has enough firepower to nullify 1-2 large threats per turn given you can split fire the Lascannons (4 per target). The problem if you sit back is that you have another 500+ points sitting inside doing nothing, so really you want the Spartan pushing forward which then means Azrael on foot simply will not keep up. Personally I feel you are best to drop the Spartan in favour of a LRC and equip the Dreads with Las and auto sitting with Azrael for the 4+, then use the rest of the points to get more DWT units. Alternatively drop all bar 1 of the Dreads (las + auto) and Azrael and focus on getting more Terminator units to provide an increased board presence in support of the Spartan. I would keep one Dread so that you can viably split fire the Spartan and then use the Las on the Dread to finish a key target without have to overkill it.

I feel you are falling into the same trap as myself in building lists, as a new player I just want to take all the big stuff because it is cool. It is possible, however I am quickly realising that is not the best way to build a viable all comers army list.

Option 1

Belial
Techmarine on Bike

Apothecary
Venerable Dread

7 DWK
5 DWT
5 DWT
5 DWT

Spartan

Option 2

Azrael
Belial

Apothecary
Venerable Dread
Venerable Dread
Venerable Dread

5 DWK
5 DWT
5 DWT

LRC

I feel you are falling into the same trap as myself in building lists, as a new player I just want to take all the big stuff because it is cool.

Ha! Guilty as charged, my man! This is my first foray outside of Tau for a long time, and it's a lot of fun playing with all the new toys. In case it wasn't obvious, I'm pretty determined to run a Spartan unless it just turns out to be absolutely terrible. We'll see how it goes!

While we are on the subject of Deathwing builds, how does this sound?
Detachment 1: Vanguard Detachment
HQ:
Belial
Elites:
5 Deathwing Terminators w/Assault Cannon
5 Deathwing Terminators w/Assault Cannon
5 Deathwing Knights w/Watcher in the Dark
Deathwing Ancient w/Hammer & Shield
Deathwing Apothecary
Heavy Support:
Land Raider Crusader w/Multimelta
Detachment 2: Air Wing Detachment
Nephilim Jetfighter w/Twin Lascannon
Nephilim Jetfighter w/Twin Lascannon
Dark Talon
Total 1999 points if 3 Chainfists are taken in the Termie squads, 5 Command Points
The flyers provide some heavy firepower while the termies mulch softer targets with their storm bolters and assault cannons. The Land Raider has the Knights and Ancient in it. The Apothecary waits until turn 2 to drop so he can heal a unit that takes fire on the first turn. With such a low number of drops, I feel like this list will go first a lot. My main concern, though, is the low model count, meaning every casualty really hurts. Thoughts?

This is currently what im thinking for a Deathwing list:

HQ:
Bellial - Bolter and Sword of Silence
Azrael - Lions Wrath, Sword of Secrets

Elites:
DW Terminator x 5, assault cannon
DW Terminator x5, assault terminator
DW Knights x5
DW Ancient (Thunder Hammer and Storm if points allow)
Ven Dred - CCW, flamer, Twin Las
Ven Dred - CCW, flamer, Twin Las
Ven Dred - CCW, flamer, Twin Autocanon

Heavy Support:
Land Raider Redeemer - Flamestorm x2, twin assault canon.

Set up:
Azrael and the 3 ven dreds in backfield as range support. CCw and flamer to prevent/deal with deepstriking charges. Azrael for obvious reasons.

DWK, Bellial and Ancient in Redeemer moving up the field.

DWT x2, Teleporting in maybe turn 2/3 behind the enemies back while they distracted with the bigger units. Lots of dakka from the bolters and assault cannon, plus charge with PFs.

has the potential to take more dakka on the dreds as well if facing more marine based armies.

Also could drop the land raider and bring 3 troops to switch detachment if I need more command points.

Just need to buy myself 3 ven dreds and an auto canon, have everything else already. Is Forgeworld the only place to get the canon?

Thoughts on the list? I think its a decent all-rounder. Good anti-infantry, very good CC, some heavy hitters for Armour.

garetheves wrote:

Just need to buy myself 3 ven dreds and an auto canon, have everything else already. Is Forgeworld the only place to get the canon?

I'm gonna order a lot of dreads with lascannons and cyclone missile launchers from glorious China. Look into it.

 axisofentropy wrote:

garetheves wrote:

Just need to buy myself 3 ven dreds and an auto canon, have everything else already. Is Forgeworld the only place to get the canon?

I'm gonna order a lot of dreads with lascannons and cyclone missile launchers from glorious China. Look into it.

To tell couldn't find anything on Aliexpress if that's what you mean?

Here's the parking lot list I'm workshopping, in two parts of one 2000 point Battalion Detachment:

• Azreal
• Mortis Dreadnought -Twin Lascannon, Twin Lascannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher
• Mortis Dreadnought -Twin Lascannon, Twin Lascannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher
• Mortis Dreadnought -Twin Lascannon, Twin Lascannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher
• Mortis Dreadnought -Twin Lascannon, Twin Lascannon, Cyclone Missile Launcher
• Ravenwing Dark Shroud - Heavy Bolter

That's the parking lot. At full strength, the dreads can do an average of 30 damage to Imperial Knights each turn. If the dreads stay within 6" of both Azreal and the Dark Shroud, they re-roll misses and are protected by 4++ and -1 to shoot. Is that enough to protect this 900 point dreadnought investment?
Then the rest of the detachment screens and goes for objectives:

• Asmodai (6" re-roll Melee misses, +1 Attack, -1 enemy Leadership)
• 5 Company Veterans - 4 with 2 chainswords each, Sergeant with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
• Razorback - Twin Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter
• 5 Company Veterans - 4 with 2 chainswords each, Sergeant with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
• Razorback - Twin Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter
• 5 Scouts, maybe knives?
• 5 Scouts
• 5 Scouts
• 5 Scouts

I know, this could probably be accomplished better by conscripts or other Imperials. I really wish I could use Fenrisian Wolves or even Death Company. But these Dark Angels at least have a chance at Azreal's bonus bubbles in some missions or in first turns. Maybe combine two of the Scout squads to 10 models to conga line? Or three squads of 6-7?

I'm thinking about dropping the land raider in my list for 3x razorbacks, one twasscan-back and two lasbacks. Similar cost, similar firepower. I have (iirc) 3 DWT squads and one unit of knights who were gonna ride in the raider. I'm thinking of dropping one DWT squad to get some company vets in the assault cannon razorback to go with azmodai. Just chance the DWK making their charge after porting. If they miss they can soak a lot of fire while the other guys get the work done. Then azmodai meets the teleport team (including Belial and an ancient probably) in the middle for all the glorious synergy.

Of course then I have to decide if I want to keep my vendread with the lasbacks or readjust there too. If I trade some termies for company vets I'll have some wiggle room.

I'm starting to wonder if Dark Angels could run a flyer-heavy list like the one that won that GT a little while back. Like 2 Air Wing detachments with 4 Nephys and 2 Dark Talons. That would come to about 1100 points or so, leaving room for some ground troops or even a Darkshroud for a potential -2 to hit the flyers (at least when they move close enough to it). I'm not sure I'd try that but maybe it could work?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if Dark Angels could run a flyer-heavy list like the one that won that GT a little while back. Like 2 Air Wing detachments with 4 Nephys and 2 Dark Talons. That would come to about 1100 points or so, leaving room for some ground troops or even a Darkshroud for a potential -2 to hit the flyers (at least when they move close enough to it). I'm not sure I'd try that but maybe it could work?

I personally wouldn't advocate for more flyer spam, and against some lists with AA you're pretty roasted.

I'm doing an escalation type league with some friends and Ravenwing is my choice (they've been sitting around waiting to be painted for awhile). I do have other DAs to add later, but going to finish the RW first. I'm definitely seeing the issue of weapon choice as you don't always want to get in so close to units if you're not going to get the charge. Melta is not what it used to be, as it's difficult to knock out a tank/monster with just a few shots, and the Attack Bike has really taken a hit with the -1 to hit when moving.
I have one unit of 3 bikes with 2 meltas right now and figured the 2 MM attack bikes would just ride shotgun with it to add to the melta shots on one target. The problem is that you are now having to get really close to do damage, so picking on an already damaged unit would be better. Due to points, I was actually considring adding combi-flamer on the sgt (just didn't have the points for combi-melta) just as a little defence to be counter charged after getting into melta range.

Also running plasma bikers and think these are a great medium range unit and can really lay down some FP when they do get within 12" with all the bolter shots, plasmas and combi-plasma on sgt. Each unit would be supported by a LS tornado with HB and AC for more shots.

I'm pretty disappointed in the LS really and the typhoon is super expensive (as someone else said...why not take a dread instead?) Only advantage with the LS (if it survives) is that it can leave combat and still shoot.

What believe the RW list lacks is good ranged firepower and so I'm considering adding 2 Nephilim fighters with twin las to the mix. Each nephilim is the same cost as a LS tornado and MM AB and I feel that is a fair trade off. The Dark Talon is a great weapon too, but I feel that what the RW list lacks is best made up by the Nephilim. Hitting transports from range to strip wounds, then let the melta bikes finish it off, while black knights/plasma bikers handle the occupants will hopefully be viable.

Sammy with Black knights, apothecary, ancient and darkshroud is definitely a great mix IMHO. Saw a guy advocate overscharging the plasma talons on these guys after always advancing (5+ jink) but only rerolling the 1s that miss instead of any 2s (you have a choice on reroll). Going to miss quite a few that roll 2s and 3's, but decent damage otherwise. Hate the idea of losing a BK to a roll of a 1 though...50pts a pop. Guess that's what the apothecary is for.
As for the DS, I plan to only ever take the HB with it as I never plan to shoot. Always advancing to get the 5+ jink to keep it alive seems so much more useful as it's their purely for the -1 to hit.

I'm also conidering putting the Vengeance back on the table. It's cheaper than a Typhoon, more survivable and armed with an assault cannon too can dish out some decent pain. Does 2 damage on regular fire and 3 on overcharge, it's not too shabby, especially if within 6" of Sammy.

My second HQ choice is going to be the Librarian....not really because of the DA powers as such, but more for the Deny the Witch roll...as Smite is just too easy to kill expensive RW bikers.

Has anyone else tried an Assault Squad with 2 flamers, riding in a Rhino/Razorback? I tried it and it really didn't do much. For all that everyone says about how good Flamers are in 8th, they seem very swingy. It didn't help that in a recent game, the one time they got shots off with the flamers they rolled double 1's for number of shots. Maybe that has soured my opinion of Assault squads. Maybe they really need Jump Packs this edition? Or maybe I just need to try it again.

Dark Angels wish they had a unit with high movement and 2 attacks, but they don't.

I do think Company Veterans with double Chainswords might have a niche in transports, like Razorbacks that would otherwise be empty. Maybe thunder hammers on veteran sergeants. Maybe a flamer, but those S4 hits from a flamer end up costing more than more models with double Chainswords.

I'm looking at 5 company vets to go with Asmodai as a bodyguard in case his razor gets shot down while he's in transit to my teleporting terminators blob. Doesn't hurt that they can get to 5 attacks with two chainsword and the aura for no additional points. Ideally I'd spare then a couple of storm shields and maybe a Thammer on the sgt but points are thin and i feel like turn 1 HKs may be more useful.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Dark Angels wish they had a unit with high movement and 2 attacks, but they don't.

What about Inceptors? Granted they cost a boatload of points, but they seem like they hit pretty hard on the charge, especially with a 50% chance to cause at least one mortal wound. Those assault bolters throw out plenty of dakka as well. Another fast unit that gets base 2 attacks on the charge is Ravenwing Black Knights. 14" move plus 2d6 charge is not too shabby, plus they get an Assault 2 plasma talon. I'm debating running 3 of them with Sammael and a Champion (because the Blade of Caliban is just nuts now). Really I'd like to run more of them, but I only have 3 Black Knight models.

That's the problem with Dark Angels in melee; all of our decent melee units are fairly expensive in points. Other armies have much cheaper assault troops, like Tyranids with 10-point Genestealers and Orks with big blobs of Boyz with 4 attacks each. And don't get me started on Khorne Berzerkers. We need to win the game in the shooting phase more than the charge and fight phases.