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 ZergSmasher wrote:

What about Inceptors? Granted they cost a boatload of points,

you said it. If they were 20 points cheaper they'd be fine.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

What about Inceptors? Granted they cost a boatload of points, but they seem like they hit pretty hard on the charge, especially with a 50% chance to cause at least one mortal wound. Those assault bolters throw out plenty of dakka as well.

That's the problem with Dark Angels in melee; all of our decent melee units are fairly expensive in points. Other armies have much cheaper assault troops, like Tyranids with 10-point Genestealers and Orks with big blobs of Boyz with 4 attacks each. And don't get me started on Khorne Berzerkers. We need to win the game in the shooting phase more than the charge and fight phases.

They are 225 points for 3 models...they will not see any play (other than fun games) until GW prices them right, until then they are garbage.

Dark angels have never been known as a CC army. Do we have units that can CC decently well in a pinch or are pretty expensive (knights), sure, but If you want good CC Marines, you need to look at Space Wolves or Blood Angels, probably Black Templars too once the SM book comes out and they get some special rules.

On paper veterans seem pretty decent. Each have two attacks. You can give them a chainsword or two, so they can be upward of four attacks each. Play them with Asmodai for an added attack and rerolls and they could be pretty damaging. They are also fairly cheap. Im thinking about playing some with a chainsword and plasma pistol each.

I feel like Veterans are too squishy to be a good assault unit. Or at least that they must get the charge, as they'll fold quick if they get hit by a dedicated assault unit. I'd prefer my veterans with shooty weapons to kill things from a distance. They may be one unit that can benefit from a Drop Pod, as they can take a bunch of special weapons and drop them in your opponent's face.

Basically the non-codex answer to sternguard, without access to special issue bolters, but most other stuff like spamming combis.

I suspect my guys will start out dual wielding chainswords and eventually end up spamming combis and riding down in my one finished pod before it's over.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Dark Angels wish they had a unit with high movement and 2 attacks, but they don't.

????
Black knights

 bullyboy wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Dark Angels wish they had a unit with high movement and 2 attacks, but they don't.

????
Black knights

yeah but if they're in melee they're not shooting plasma.

Trip report: ATC just finished and I won half my games, tabling two opponents. Deathwing Knights are real.

Were you running pure deathwing or the deathwing supported by Azrael gunline?

 axisofentropy wrote:
Trip report: ATC just finished and I won half my games, tabling two opponents. Deathwing Knights are real.

Good to know that the Sons of the Lion can kick ass and take names even at the big events. Although I hope the guys you tabled weren't some of my buddies who went to that event...

I am concerned that the new Space Marine codex is really going to have a serious edge over our guys soon, and that we're gonna be in for a long wait for our own book. Probably next year.

The Dark Angels were my first army back in 2nd Edition, and I've stayed loyal to them over the years (although I stayed out of 7th Ed). I took a 2,000 point Dark Angels army to my town's first 8th Edition tournament this past weekend. I have to admit that the driving force in my list building was nostalgia: I picked things because I liked them and I lacked discipline. My force had two detachments. The first was a Battalion led by Azrael, supported by a Librarian on a bike. Two full Tactical Squads and a Scout Squad with sniper rifles were the core, backed up by three Ravenwing Black Knights, a Nephilim Jetfighter and a five-man Devastator Squad. The second detachment was a Vanguard led by Belial, supported by a Deathwing Champion, five Deathwing Knights and five Deathwing Terminators. I figured that I would face a lot of power armour lists and that drove the details of my list along with emotional attachment to certain figures.

We played three games: my first was against Chaos while the second and third were both against Orcs. I will post elsewhere with details of the games, but I came 2nd out of 32 players and won all three games. It is very early, but I will offer some observations on my units and tactics:

a. The Deathwing Knights were great. They were let down a little in the first game by poor charge rolls, but against the Orcs they were whirlwinds of death. Led by Belial they can kill pretty much anything.

b. Belial is amazing. Placed correctly he made the Deathwing detachment a beast. The Champion racked up an impressive number of kills, but I think that the points would have been better spent on an Ancient.

c. The normal Deathwing were great, although I should have put a Storm Shield in there. There firepower is great, especially if Belial is giving re-rolls.

d. I used the Deathwing Terminators, the Knights, Belial and the Champion as an integrated team. They beamed in together, with the Terminators softening up targets with firepower. Keeping them together limited flexibility, but dramatically increased combat power and resilience. Two Deathwing Vanguard Detachments could be fun. Belial would lead a shooty one while a Chaplain would lead a close combat one.

e. The Librarian on a bike, created by mercilessly cutting my old Codicier in half with bolt cutters, was a bit of a disappointment. His lack of an invul save is an issue.

d. The Tactical Squads did just fine, with missile launchers and bolters helping to thin the Orc numbers in support of my heavy hitters. The Scouts attracted plenty of firepower and took down a Weirdboy.

e. The Devastators were great in game one, were virtually wiped out by Boom Bombs in game two and wiped out by Stormboyz in game three. I think that they might work better in a full squad of ten to have more resilience. I will also try dropping them for a Predator. I deployed them poorly in game three and I also forgot to use the Signum. Oops.

f. The Nephilim was my mobile reserve of firepower, softening up targets for assaults. He was a flying lawnmower against Orcs. He also took down a wounded Demon Prince. I'll try a Dark Talon, but the Nephilim certainly earned its salt.

g. The Ravenwing Black Knights were a bit of a disappointment, but this is probably because they didn't really fit in the army. Against Chaos they did great (supercharging with Azrael nearby), but against the Orcs they were a bit of a liability. I will not shelve the Black Knights, though, as they probably work better in a proper Ravenwing list.

h. Finally, Azrael is simply amazing. I hadn't used the model since 2nd Ed, but he has certainly shaken the dust off! The re-rolls are great, his save bubble wonderful and he is no slouch in close combat.

Its early, but I'm pretty happy with the Dark Angels so far. The Deathwing certainly seem viable. I thought I was toast against the Orc hordes (each had three units of 30), but the combination of firepower, Deathwing Knight close combat and Belial was great. With an Ancient it would have been even better.

Thanks for reading,

T2B

Widied wrote:
Were you running pure deathwing or the deathwing supported by Azrael gunline?

Deathwing supported by my Ad Mech robbits. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/729624.page

Got max points in my first three games against Genestealer Cult and Tyranids, Leman Russ parking lot, and 12 robots. But then the second day I got tabled by 4 Renegade knights, Smite spam demons, and Tyranids.

Yeah, Smite spam is a real pain for a lot of lists, especially small elite ones like Deathwing. Watchers are okay, but they only provide protection from one Smite and then they're gone. And even that is not a sure thing. Don't get me wrong, a Watcher is totally worth the 5 points for the protection they give, but there is very little anyone can do against 8+ Smites per turn.

Any chance that the new reivers squads (10 man squad is 180 points) might provide a viable, cheap assault squad for Dark Angels?

Have many of you guys run full ravenwing this edition? I will be honest... guilty of only reading back a couple pages :/

I have been considering them since 7th. I mainly just really like Black Knight models. and the Landspeeder vengeance (despite its lack lusterness in 7th)

Reading quickly through some perks getting a shroud, sammuel, and an ancient around you can get a pretty decent ball rolling with a few aura bonuses.

Any thoughts on the matter?

After reading the cool new flavors of space marines, im curious as to how they will approach the dark angels. It seems like they are all flavorful and useful abilities for the most part. I just hope they dont get to us and say 'okay this is the +1 to leadership chapter'. .. lol

I think an all ravenwing army has some potential we have alot of cool tools there. Sammael seems very useful this edition. I bikes to be a bit more expensive than i want them to be. But there are tactical uses for sure.

Sammeal is good and the dark shroud may be the best dark Angel unit after Azreal. But the -1 to shoot Heavy weapons prevents attack bikes and Land speeders from leveraging their movement, and the other bike units try to fill too many niches that are better covered by things like assault Marines or vehicles.

That said, a Ravenwing army will do very well in a Maelstrom format

 axisofentropy wrote:
Sammeal is good and the dark shroud may be the best dark Angel unit after Azreal. But the -1 to shoot Heavy weapons prevents attack bikes and Land speeders from leveraging their movement, and the other bike units try to fill too many niches that are better covered by things like assault Marines or vehicles.

That said, a Ravenwing army will do very well in a Maelstrom format

I am finding my Ravenwing Landspeeders a little underwhelming right now, due in no small part to the -1 to hit when moving that you bring up. The Ravenwing Knights have been great against enemies in power armour, but they struggled against hordes. I'm retooling my Ravenwing and I am planning to run an all-Ravenwing force in the next two weeks.

An all-Ravenwing should probably have a mix of:
Sammeal
Dark Shroud[s]
Black Knights
Bikers with special weapons and maybe combi-weapons
A Dark Talon or three (saw a lot of these at ATC)
Maybe an Ancient or Apothecary or Librarian but not necessarily.

If taking a Flyer Wing, I think a good mix of Nephilims and Dark Talons would work well. I'm figuring on running 2 Nephys with Lascannons and a Dark Talon myself one of these days. With how strong flyers are in this edition I feel like that combo would do some work.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
If taking a Flyer Wing, I think a good mix of Nephilims and Dark Talons would work well. I'm figuring on running 2 Nephys with Lascannons and a Dark Talon myself one of these days. With how strong flyers are in this edition I feel like that combo would do some work.

My one Nephilim did great work at the tournament last weekend (just have to remember that Stormboyz can charge it...) The Nephilim filled the role my Landspeeders used to do as I armed it with an Avenger Mega Bolter. I will try a Dark Talon soon: it should get better results against armies with high-value targets such as Terminators and the like while the Hurricane Bolters can do some damage against horder. I am looking at Flyer Detachment: its quite a points investment but it could be useful as support to a Ravenwing force instead of a bunch of Landspeeders.

I just got 3 dark talons/nephiliums yesterday. I'm going to try to run all 3 in a game i'm playing sunday. 2 Nephs, and 1 Dark talon is what i'm thinking. Arming the nephs for anti tank with the twin las cannon, plus missiles, and the Dark Talon is no anti armor slouch either with the rift cannon. Plus they both have anti-infantry/horde weapons as well. The fact that flyers no longer need facing to shoot at whatever they want, while very goofy, makes them very good. So, anyways, we'll see what happens this weekend.

I just had a game with a friend today. It was his first 8th edition game. We used 2000 point lists with the restriction of no duplications on Elites, FA, or HS choices (for a casual tournament he's going to soon). Here's my list:

My opponent was running a Genestealer Cult list:

He went first and I failed to sieze. He rolled poorly on his Cult Ambush table, then picked off a few models but didn't kill anything completely on his first turn, which hurt him. I dropped all of my Deathwing in on turn 1, with the Knights and Ancient behind his lines looking at his Sentinels, and all the others looking at the Genestealers. I killed several Genestealers on turn 1 with shooting, then successfully charged them with my Terminators and Belial, killing all but four in total. I also killed all but one of the Acolytes on turn 1 with a combination of shooting and melee, causing the last one to flee and netting me First Blood. The DW Knights failed their charge badly enough it wasn't worth burning a command point. They ended up being a big zero all game as my opponent just kited them and killed all of them over a couple of turns. The Ancient gave it up and ran behind the lines where he remained and netted me Linebreaker. Over the next few turns we shot at each other and got into plenty of melee combats. I won't report everyting other than the highlights. I shot up the Aberrants a little bit on one turn after they destroyed all of my regular Deathwing guys on turn 3. Also on turn 3, Belial was a real champ with his parrying blade and my opponent rolled very poorly, missing all but one attack which Belial saved. He had taken a couple of wounds from the Purestrains, though. On turn 4 he chopped up the Patriarch for Slay the Warlord. The Aberrants also got unlucky and only got one attack through the saves on my Gravis CM. He then killed them all over a couple of turns with his gun fist. We traded a lot of units back and forth and ultimately at the end of a full 7 turns, I only had Belial, Ezekiel, the Apothecary, and the Ancient left on the board. My opponent had his Leman Russ, one of the trucks, the Sentinels, and one of the Neophyte squads. I did win though, with 14 points (11 Killpoints, plus StW, FB, and LB). My opponent had 12 points (11 Killpoints, plus LB), so it was close. I really got lucky with my saves and my opponent's dice just crapped on him on the final turn, so to me luck more than skill won me the day.
My takeaway:
Belial is a must-take for Deathwing for sure. I know we've all established that pretty well in this thread, but this game just reinforced it in my head.
Deathwing Knights really do need a Land Raider to work reliably, especially if an Ancient accompanies them. Otherwise if they fail their initial charge the opponent can just kite them and kill them at his leisure as terminators are too slow to catch most things.
Ezekiel is pretty solid. His weapons are better than those available to a standard Librarian, and he is fairly durable with his 2+ save and 4++ invul.
Gravis Captain is also a solid pick. He gets lots of CC attacks, has a choice of melee weapon to tailor for his enemies, and don't underestimate that 3-shot pistol weapon built into his fist. The reroll-1's ability is great for accompanying Hellblasters or other things than like to overcharge their plasma weapons.
Intercessors can really do some work in shooting or CC. Those Bolt Rifles are much better than boltguns, and they get extra wounds and attacks over a Tactical squad. Tacs still have their uses, but I'm definitely going to keep using my Primaris guys.
Deathwing as a whole look quite strong, although I'm not sure an all-Deathwing army will do that well due to low model count. While my DW Knights didn't kill anything, they were an effective distraction and drew plenty of fire that could have killed my other stuff much quicker. 2+/3++ is no joke.
Vehicles are great for tying up other vehicles in combat. I played demolition derby with one of my Razorbacks that was on its last wound, successfully charging a Goliath. That kept it from shooting in the next turn, which helped my guys live a little longer.
Plasma cannons are very swingy and unreliable and I probably won't use them much in the future. Was worth trying though.

Thanks for the ravenwing advice gents. For my first 2k list I am most likely going to run the following. Once the actual book comes out and we hopefully have a perk for taking all <ravenwing> I will switch the knight out.

Sammuel
Ravenwing Ancient
10 Black Knights
6 Ravenwing Bikes (flamers, combi flamer)
Darkshroud (assault cannon)
2 Nephilim (twin las)
Imperial Knight Errant


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It could potentially be better though, to drop the ancient in favor of more bodies on the table. If i drop some of the upgrades. I could fit 10 Ravenwing bikes (or a full squad w/ assault bike). Which could be better with a lower model count list with the knight setup.

So, i want to make a DW army, right now i have:
2x Dark Vengeance terminators (heavy has swappable weapons).
1x DW knights.

What should i buy next, going to get 2 boxes of something and Belial (or should i aim for some other HQ?). I was thinking Ven. dreads 2x, or 1 Venerable and box of terminators for making apothecary, ancient.
Have Greewning, Predator, scouts and DV set DA thats going to be the filler for until i get a decent list.

Araablane wrote:
So, i want to make a DW army, right now i have:
2x Dark Vengeance terminators (heavy has swappable weapons).
1x DW knights.

What should i buy next, going to get 2 boxes of something and Belial (or should i aim for some other HQ?). I was thinking Ven. dreads 2x, or 1 Venerable and box of terminators for making apothecary, ancient.
Have Greewning, Predator, scouts and DV set DA thats going to be the filler for until i get a decent list.

The core of my Deathwing is Belial, a unit of Deathwing Terminators and a unit of Deathwing Knights. Based on what you have, getting Belial and two boxes of the Deathwing Command Squad will get you a decent core. Since you have two DW Terminators and a DW Knight already you could make an Ancient, Apothecary and Champion as well. This would get you going with DW, and you could add support as you see fit.

Cheers

Little bit confused, so you are recommending to get 2x DW boxes so i could make Ancient, Apothecary and Champion.
I should be able to make them from one box or i should make second box into regular DW?
Also i need some units on the board that can handle tanks and other nasty things thats why i was thinking Ven. dread for support.

So I know there's been a lot of talk about DW army list and Dreads but, as I have A LOT of greenwing left over from my (sorely missed) Lion's Blade days in 7th I've been trying to come up with a decent list. This is what I've come to after a couple of games. I will change this as I get different models but this is purely models I own. I do have a lot though and can change this up as needed.

Battalion Detachment

Ezekiel
Primaris LT - Power Sword
Scout squad x 3 with boltguns
Darkshroud
Dark Talon
Razorback x3 - all TL asscan

Spearhead Detachment

Azrael
Techmarin with conversion beamer/axe
Dreadnought w ML/TLLC
Dev Sqad - 4 x ML, Cherub
2 x Tri Las Preds, 1 pred with HK

Start the game with the 3 scout squads, ezekiel, azreal, and the techmarine in the razorbacks to cut down on drops unless my opponent has an elite army with lots of deepstriking. At that point I deploy everything to keep them off my gun line since, unless I seize, I'm not going to go first anyways. What I've learned so far:

- The HQ choices here have been my go to. All the buffs make a gun line incredibly durable. My last game was against nids/GSC (exocrin, 2 x harpies, 1 x hive crone, that thing that spawns gaunts, 20 stealers with patriarch, and 10 of the guys that have rock drills etc., and a few warriors), I think they only managed to do a couple wounds in the shooting phase which was quickly healed by my techmarine. I could keep my vehicles at full HP easily. With all the rerolls to hit/wound I could easily delete 1 big bug a turn. I know turn 1, one predator smoked a harpie with full health by itself.

- Scout are pretty good bubble wrap (so far). If they survive, I fall back and blast stuff with the razorbacks. In a pinch, casting smite on something with ezekial, followed by some shooting and a counter charge has proven pretty effective. The 4 HQ choices counter charging 20 stealers with aversion on them after shooting is hard to stand up to.

- I love my Dark Talon. Every game I play with it, it does work. Favorite tactic so far is to try and start it on the field in the Dark Shrouds/Azreal's bubble if possible and let it scream across the field turn 1 to wreak havoc. It tends to draw a lot of fire and is durable enough to survive a while giving my gun line time to really tear stuff apart.

- I'm still out on the razorbacks. Of the games I've played they've done minimal damage, although, I think a lot of it is me. I'm having problems getting out of my 7th ed mind set.

- Dark Shrouds - excellent. If you have a gun line you need it. The -1 to hit is pretty big. A dev squad in cover with a 2+ armor save, -1 to hit, and 4+ invul is pretty hard to shift.

Problems I've had with the list

I have a lot of points invested in the gun line, which I don't want to move for the first turn minimum, maybe two depending on how the dice roll. In maelstrom type games that can hurt. I'm trying to use the razorbacks/Dark Talons to make up for it. Again, I think I just need to play more and get more comfortable with 8th ed. Also, trying to keep everything in the buff bubbles can be hard.

Number of drops. I have yet to go first in a game. Even against the nids. I just have way to many units to set up. I'd love to find a way to cut that down but I'm not sure how. I think I've been looking at this to close for to long so I'm hoping y'all may be able to help with.

I'm not sure preds are the way to go. They are great, don't get me wrong, but they are 202 points (208 w/HK) and get 4 las shots. I can do the same thing with a dev squad for 170 (that gets 5 shots with the cherub 1 turn). The dev squad usually has at least 1 model hitting on a 2+. With the buffs from the HQs they are durable and effective. I may try swapping the 2 preds for dev squads. Since I can do that now. I think I will eventually move to mortis dreads taking the place of the preds, if not the devs to in the future.

True Assault armies. I haven't played a game where someone is able to get my back field into combat turn 1. Not sure how long I could last against someone getting turn 1 charges.

No pressure in my opponent deployment zone. At least not from deepstriking or fast moving units (aside from the Dark Talon). I basically have to whether an entire turn of shooting every game. So far it's been durable enough to last but in my local meta I haven't played anyone yet that can put out a massive amount of shots turn one. I'm not sure how this would fair against a a Tau/Guard gun line.

Anyways, I'd love some feedback on this list or if anyone else is trying something similar.

Araablane wrote:
Little bit confused, so you are recommending to get 2x DW boxes so i could make Ancient, Apothecary and Champion.
I should be able to make them from one box or i should make second box into regular DW?
Also i need some units on the board that can handle tanks and other nasty things thats why i was thinking Ven. dread for support.

The Deathwing Command Squad box (code 99 12 01 01 096) has the parts to make five models plus a Watcher. You can make Deathwing Terminators x 5, Deathwing Knights x 5, or two of either and three individuals such as Apothecary, Ancient and Champion. Its a very flexible box with lots of bitz! I notice that its out of stock on line right now (at least in Canada), but so are the other Deathwing boxes.

Right now you have two DW Terminators plus a Knight: you need five of each to get a force going. You need a minimum of eight additional models to get two units, so you need two boxes. With one box you could build three DW Terminators to fill out the first unit and could then make an Ancient and a Champion (or more Terminators). With the second box you could make four Deathwing Knights to bring your unit to five and then the Apothecary (or another Knight or another Terminator). Alternatively, you could just fill out two units with DW Terminators (save the Knights for later) and two of the supporters (Ancient, Apoth, or Champion). Add in Belial and you are ready to strike. I am finding that the Ancient is more useful than the Champion, although the Champ has his moments.

As for support, you have a lot of choices. You need something that can neutralize the big threats to your Terminators. A Venerable Dreadnought works nicely as it can benefit from some of the Deathwing buffs from Belial/Ancient. I use Scouts with Sniper rifles as support for DW as well. Something to keep in mind with DW list building is that you can only have half of your units teleport. At a tournament I had enough units so that all of my Deathwing could teleport.

Oh, man, im so sorry, when i wrote 2x DW i meant i have 2x Deathwing squads.
So i have 10 Dark Vengeance terminator models and DW knight squad with 5 models, total 15 models.
But yea, thankie you for your advice, i know what to get.

No pressure in my opponent deployment zone. At least not from deepstriking or fast moving units (aside from the Dark Talon). I basically have to whether an entire turn of shooting every game. So far it's been durable enough to last but in my local meta I haven't played anyone yet that can put out a massive amount of shots turn one. I'm not sure how this would fair against a a Tau/Guard gun line.

Anyways, I'd love some feedback on this list or if anyone else is trying something similar.

I like your list. I have a list I've been working on at 1500 points and the closer I get to 2000 the more my list is probably going to look like yours. I really want to get a dark shroud and dark talon. Ive been curious since the edition dropped. The only key difference I think between our two lists is I'm for the use of venerable dreads as long range/close range options. I have one with a fist/lascannon, and another with ml and lascannon. Also using a pred and devestators for long range. But the dreads might help with your concern about drops in your zone. The combat fist and heavy flamer could be a deterrent.