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Close combat means nothing still. Even with BA, you can force me to charge chumps.

"isn't easily accomplished" is a bit of an understatement.

Maybe oblits are undercosted. They don't get used enough as far as I can tell to make a clear determination.

I guffawed at the assertion that Eldar fail psychic tests they want to pull off. Yeah its pretty much automatic, like 90%.

 Galef wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:

I also feel that this statement is disingenuous: "can move/charge over 80 inches while killing two/three units a turn" as this also requires a Psyker to can a power in order to work. You pay the points for the Psyker too and it is hardly a garunteed power to go off.

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mokoshkana wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
40 is still too low to be a fair unit. 200 pts for 5 of these guys is a steal. Go look at what other factions get for 200 pts.

Obliterators (3 for 195) are pretty amazing for their points. Should we go ahead and raise the points for that unit too? They can deepstrike where needed, and if I am not mistaken, they can use a Strategem to shoot twice in the same turn. With a 24 inch range, they can get their firepower where its needed pretty easily.

When you look at what Reapers provide, you have to remember that they struggle in close combat. Marine equivalents, while not as brutal in shooting abilities, get +1 str and tough. Reapers can be tied up in close combat, although that isn't easily accomplished.

Actually yes, Obliterators are too cheap for what they can do, and even more with the slaanesh mark and shooting double stratagem. One unit being OP doesn't justify Eldar units being OP. When to justify the "power" of Dark Reapers you jump to the most OP unit in other very competitive Codex... yeah.

And I'm sorry but the fact that they struggle at close combat is just... a non issue. It could be a issue if they had 20" range and they need to be close to the enemy to do their job. But they have 48" range. They aren't gonna be charged by anything if you know how to deploy.

 thejughead wrote:
I guffawed at the assertion that Eldar fail psychic tests they want to pull off. Yeah its pretty much automatic, like 90%.

It's 50/50 actually. The power in question is NOT cast by a Farseer and is level 7. The only way to reroll any part of it is to use the CP reroll.

Do you play Eldar? Have you tried this tactic? Well, I have and it fails about half the time.
It is this kind of assumption that keeps driving the Eldar hate and I do not appreciate it.
Please, let's all try to make an effort to know the rules. Sometimes you might find they have limitations.

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 Galas wrote:

mokoshkana wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
40 is still too low to be a fair unit. 200 pts for 5 of these guys is a steal. Go look at what other factions get for 200 pts.

Obliterators (3 for 195) are pretty amazing for their points. Should we go ahead and raise the points for that unit too? They can deepstrike where needed, and if I am not mistaken, they can use a Strategem to shoot twice in the same turn. With a 24 inch range, they can get their firepower where its needed pretty easily.

When you look at what Reapers provide, you have to remember that they struggle in close combat. Marine equivalents, while not as brutal in shooting abilities, get +1 str and tough. Reapers can be tied up in close combat, although that isn't easily accomplished.

Actually yes, Obliterators are too cheap for what they can do, and even more with the slaanesh mark and shooting double stratagem. One unit being OP doesn't justify Eldar units being OP. When to justify the "power" of Dark Reapers you jump to the most OP unit in other very competitive Codex... yeah.

And I'm sorry but the fact that they struggle at close combat is just... a non issue. It could be a issue if they had 20" range and they need to be close to the enemy to do their job. But they have 48" range. They aren't gonna be charged by anything if you know how to deploy.

I never attempted to justify Reapers being overpowered. I agree with Galef in his assessment of some tweaks.

Additionally, outside of Shining Spears, I haven't heard or seen too much discussion surrounding other Eldar units being over the top, but I could be wrong. Either way once Reapers are adjusted, the next best Eldar unit will see increased utilization and the discussion will start about how that unit is too powerful and needs nerfed. That is the nature of games like this. Players who want to field a winning army will gravitate towards the better stuff, especially when it is in a tournament setting. Every army has its great, good, mediocre, bad, etc units. The problem with Eldar is that the army excels at utilizing synergy, which compounds the screams of OP due to the fact that its quality buffers can make the great units OP, the good units great, the mediocre units...you get the point.

Yeah, thats the nature of games like this. But when you keep nerfing the very, very powerfull stuff, and then lists stop spamming it, and you see varied lists with different units, because theres no auto-take unit that is better than everything else, then thats the point we should try to reach. Or GW at least.

Of course balance can't be achieved just by nerfing the OP stuff, you need to buff the weak too, and redesign the units /rules that just don't work.

 Galef wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I guffawed at the assertion that Eldar fail psychic tests they want to pull off. Yeah its pretty much automatic, like 90%.

It's 50/50 actually. The power in question is NOT cast by a Farseer and is level 7. The only way to reroll any part of it is to use the CP reroll.

Do you play Eldar? Have you tried this tactic? Well, I have and it fails about half the time.
It is this kind of assumption that keeps driving the Eldar hate and I do not appreciate it.
Please, let's all try to make an effort to know the rules. Sometimes you might find they have limitations.

-

I feel like this is a theme with non-Eldar players. Assumptions are made that each Eldar army, regardless of how its built, can do everything at all times, when that is just not the case. Eldar armies have limitions, every unit in an army cannot have an across the board -4 to hit. With Alaitoc, at best you can get a sizable amount of -2 through Shadow Specters, Warp Spiders, Rangers and flyers, but after that you have one shot at Conceal (which doesn't work on flyers) and one use of Lightning Reflexes to improve that -2 modifier. Some of the best psychic powers in the Eldar arsenal (Protect/Jinx/Quicken/Conceal) are cast by Warlocks who don't get to reroll psychic tests.

Many people know a lot of the Eldar rules in a broad sense, but they don't know the specifics of those rules. What then happens is we end up hearing that an Alaitoc army was a flat -4 to hit across the board for all units and how that is incredibly broken. If that were true, I would absolutely agree, but its not. If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, thats the nature of games like this. But when you keep nerfing the very, very powerfull stuff, and then lists stop spamming it, and you see varied lists with different units, because theres no auto-take unit that is better than everything else, then thats the point we should try to reach. Or GW at least.

Of course balance can't be achieved just by nerfing the OP stuff, you need to buff the weak too, and redesign the units /rules that just don't work.

The most powerful stuff will always be spammed in tournaments. There will be a few different iterations of lists, but the meat and potatoes will be the same. People are actively looking to min/max in those settings, and where there is a will, there is a way...

People is trying to min/max, yeah. Theres always gonna be tiers, and even a 5% advantage will be enough for tournament players to spamm that unit. But when the disbalance is low, different lists emerge, and skill is more important.

Assuming that theres always gonna be a "op unit" that is gonna be spammed doesn't get us anywhere. Is like a pseudo justification of some units being OP.

 Elbows wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Dark Reapers needs to have their damage output lowered. Increasing their point cost would just make them an even glassier glass-cannon.

And again, no. Eldar are glass cannons, and Dark Reapers have always been glass cannons. They've also always been armed with proper missile launchers until GW retro'ed that for a while. Stop trying to make them into something they're not.

Fine by me. Then they should be 13+25 points per model, and then add another 7 points for the inescapable accuracy rule. 45 points per model with Heavy 1 str8 AP-2 dam D6, or Heavy D6, str 4 Ap0 dam 1. That sound about right. It is probably also where GW will be heading, which is a shame.

I'd take all day, every day before a Strength 8, -2 Save, Damage 2 weapon.

pismakron wrote: Fine by me. Then they should be 13+25 points per model, and then add another 7 points for the inescapable accuracy rule.

On what planet is a base Reaper 13 points with their signature rule? A Fire Dragon is 7 without their gun and they have melta bombs too. You're saying a Reaper without their special rule is worth an 8 point increase and then 7 points on top of that for the rule? That's definitely going to ensure they are never played again.

mokoshkana wrote:

pismakron wrote: Fine by me. Then they should be 13+25 points per model, and then add another 7 points for the inescapable accuracy rule.

On what planet is a base Reaper 13 points with their signature rule? A Fire Dragon is 7 without their gun and they have melta bombs too. You're saying a Reaper without their special rule is worth an 8 point increase and then 7 points on top of that for the rule? That's definitely going to ensure they are never played again.

Elbows wants reapers to be like devastators with missile launchers, and they are 38 points per model, and that is without the very powerful inescapable accuracy rule. I agree that they will rarely be played again if they are made that expensive, and even if they were, it would only be in alpha-strike gamble lists which is not exactly what the game needs.

I said earlier that reapers needs to have their damage output reduced, but not their point costs increased. Glass cannon units only works well if they are melee units, fast units or have short range weapons. Like fire dragons and, in fact, most other Eldar infantry. Glass-cannon units with 48" range will always be hard to balance properly. They are either too good or too fragile with almost nothing in between.

Just a thought here based loosely on what I remember of the fluff for dark reapers, but rather than make them as points inefficient as marine devs (and destroy any concept of flavour).
How would eldar players feel about an additional special rule

Recoil compensation any model with this rule can not fire heavy weapons if it moved during the owning players last turn.

Doesn't make reapers dust collector's, but removes the to my mind the uterly unfluffy always running around reapers.

In all of this, what ever happened to the Eldar being a dying race,
so mustering 20 Dark Reapers would be... unlikely as all get out,
given that they would have been targeted by everyone for a long time beforehand, due their scary potential to wreck face.
Same with wave serpents.
Seems to me that Reapers could stay OP,
so long as GW capped them at say 1 unit of 5 dudes max every 1500points.
Wave serpents should be 3 max for every 1500, and have to pay extra for working shields.

 jeff white wrote:
In all of this, what ever happened to the Eldar being a dying race...

When have logistics ever impacted on the tabletop? How is Guilliman able to be in literally every battle the Ultramarines fight? Why do Guardsmen have more plasma guns than Marines? Why can't the Inquisition afford power armour anymore?

so long as GW capped them at say 1 unit of 5 dudes max every 1500points.
Wave serpents should be 3 max for every 1500, and have to pay extra for working shields.

Eldar players could also pay their opponents for every points increase in cash. Say, 10$ for every 500 points of Eldar they are allowed to play today.
That would show em.

 jeff white wrote:
In all of this, what ever happened to the Eldar being a dying race,
so mustering 20 Dark Reapers would be... unlikely as all get out,
given that they would have been targeted by everyone for a long time beforehand, due their scary potential to wreck face.
Same with wave serpents.
Seems to me that Reapers could stay OP,
so long as GW capped them at say 1 unit of 5 dudes max every 1500points.
Wave serpents should be 3 max for every 1500, and have to pay extra for working shields.

You seem to have an oddly-specific expectation for the population of a given craftworld's aspect shrines. Eldar are dying off in the sense that their population was once comparable to the imperium's current population. The current eldar population may or may not be comparable to the current Tau population. It's not that there's only a couple dozen eldar left; it's more that the distance they've fallen can be very keenly felt by the way things generally keep getting worse for them, the way other species keep infesting planets that ought to be their birthright, the way craftworlds occassionally get wrecked when the eldar once had the means to obliterate threats that can wipe them out now.

The path of the dark reaper is one of the six most popular aspect paths in all of asuryani society. Why would it be unfluffy for a craftworld to scrape together 20ish guys with reaper launchers? And why do you feel that some of the longest-ranged warriors in an army notorious for its ambush tactics, durable skimmer transports, and psychic generals would be especially susceptible to being whittled down by preliminary enemy fire?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I guffawed at the assertion that Eldar fail psychic tests they want to pull off. Yeah its pretty much automatic, like 90%.

It's 50/50 actually. The power in question is NOT cast by a Farseer and is level 7. The only way to reroll any part of it is to use the CP reroll.

Do you play Eldar? Have you tried this tactic? Well, I have and it fails about half the time.
It is this kind of assumption that keeps driving the Eldar hate and I do not appreciate it.
Please, let's all try to make an effort to know the rules. Sometimes you might find they have limitations.

-

This. Thank you, Galef. WC7 on a warlock or spirit seer is far from a sure thing. You actually can give them rerolls a couple of ways (a Biel-Tan relic or the Seer of the Shifting Vector warlord trait), you're still generally going to fail a clutch power here and there even if you do invest command points, warlord traits, and relics into trying to roll a 7.

@Galef: I apologize if I missed your response to my question earlier, but would you say it's fair to say that you see reapers specifically as an anti-light vehicle hunter? If so, how would you respond to my concerns that such a role may be too niche to be viable in TAC lists? Also, I feel like asuryani don't really have anything other than reapers that can fill the "sit back with anti tank guns and hit the enemy tanks from across the map" role. Our tanks are all rather pricey for the amount of anti tank firepower they can put out, and war walkers seem like they would evaporate to return fire while also paying points for an outflank ability that they probably don't want to use if you're utilizing them in a fire base role. Do you feel I'm underestimating the anti-tank abilities of Damage 2 (possibly Strength 7) reaper launchers? If not, how do we fill the gap that such a reduction in damage would create?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Close combat means nothing still. Even with BA, you can force me to charge chumps.

"isn't easily accomplished" is a bit of an understatement.

Maybe oblits are undercosted. They don't get used enough as far as I can tell to make a clear determination.

Meh. As I play more and more games, I find it increasingly difficult to buy into the idea that units are unchargable this edition. Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but my experience continues to be that taking out the chaff the turn before you go for your big strike works just fine. I've also found hordes of 'nids (genestelaers mostly) to be sufficient to rush my gunlines and make it in against my reapers. Sure, I can screen my units, use forewarning, etc., but that only goes so far. I know you play in an anti-Blood Angels hellscape where BA automatically lose every game, but I've plenty of games of 8th where melee does violent and terrible things to gunlines. Which isn't to say that melee doesn't have its issues or that screening isn't a thing, but... well... People around here seem to make it work.