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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Xeno, I'm confused which argument you are making. Are you arguing against the bolter rule, because SoBs are too cheap? Because SoB don't get the bolter rule.....

Please just declare your argument.

Mine is - Bolter rules are fair, because 90% of the affected units need it to gain a modicum of relevancy and effectiveness.

Oh my argument is that the bolter rule does not fix power armor marines. It is a reasonable buff to centurians and LRC and space marine bikes but this doesn't put any of those units in the competitive picture. It is a reasonable buff to intercessors too. The humble tactical marine gets practically nothing out of it. So I hope it doesn't become official - I hope it is fixed so it can justify a costing 4 points more than a SOB unit. The max damage potential needs to be increased to justify paying that cost.

Trying to fix tactical marines is pointless. They got a small buff, which makes them slightly better and that's nice, but it is unreasonable to expect major buffs on a legacy unit.

just played against a crimson fist army with 10 bikers and a biker captain. 40 shots at bs 2-3 rerolling 1s vs horde units basically tables tyranid lists by turn 2.

Shot denial isn't really a thing at this point. not with 14 inch moves, 24 inch ranges and bolter drills. Its so many shots. thats 40 inches of threatened area which can be followed up with a charge.

Shots=hits=wounds=failed saves.

dreadlybrew wrote:
just played against a crimson fist army with 10 bikers and a biker captain. 40 shots at bs 2-3 rerolling 1s vs horde units basically tables tyranid lists by turn 2.

Shot denial isn't really a thing at this point. not with 14 inch moves, 24 inch ranges and bolter drills. Its so many shots. thats 40 inches of threatened area which can be followed up with a charge.

Shots=hits=wounds=failed saves.

It's actually 60 shots because the bikers have bolt guns too. 5 custodes bikers cost about the same and are about 3 times more scary. I really don't think space marine bikes are viable - though they did get a good buff.

What tyranid list?

Derp.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

dreadlybrew wrote:
just played against a crimson fist army with 10 bikers and a biker captain. 40 shots at bs 2-3 rerolling 1s vs horde units basically tables tyranid lists by turn 2.

Shot denial isn't really a thing at this point. not with 14 inch moves, 24 inch ranges and bolter drills. Its so many shots. thats 40 inches of threatened area which can be followed up with a charge.

Shots=hits=wounds=failed saves.

5 custodes bikers cost about the same and are about 3 times more scary. I really don't think space marine bikes are viable - though they did get a good buff.

No.

212 plus 100 = 310. Banana bikes are 90. 3.5 bananas for scale. Each banana is 6 shots at 24", so like 21 shots.

These bikes and captain put out 70.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Derp.


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 Xenomancers wrote:

dreadlybrew wrote:
just played against a crimson fist army with 10 bikers and a biker captain. 40 shots at bs 2-3 rerolling 1s vs horde units basically tables tyranid lists by turn 2.

Shot denial isn't really a thing at this point. not with 14 inch moves, 24 inch ranges and bolter drills. Its so many shots. thats 40 inches of threatened area which can be followed up with a charge.

Shots=hits=wounds=failed saves.

5 custodes bikers cost about the same and are about 3 times more scary. I really don't think space marine bikes are viable - though they did get a good buff.

No.

212 plus 100 = 310. Banana bikes are 90. 3.5 bananas for scale. Each banana is 6 shots at 24", so like 21 shots.

These bikes and captain put out 70.

Man you're right - I thought marine bikes were over 30 points. They are only 23. That is pretty insanel.

Quasistellar wrote:
What tyranid list?

list is in picture. 48 genestealers, 24 termis, a discount swarmlord, a broodlord and some shooty fexes, and hive tyrant and a boad load of mortal wounds behind 3++ saves.

by turn 3 the only thing left were a handful of the zoes, the warlord. and hive tyrant and his heavys.

even with a lot of LOS blocking terrain. the opponent was able to completely route me. t7 is meaningless against sheer volume. 70 rolls hitting on 2s rerolling 1s will hit. there wasnt a single shooting phase were i didnt loose a unit and a half. and even with GS swift and deadly they could just be kited.

I'm confused, wtf is a Biker Captain? Is that a Chaplain on a bike? Or does he mean Biker Sgt? Because I can't find Biker Captain. What am I screwing up?


EDIT _ SORRY IM AN IDIOT. Crimson Fist thing...

 Xenomancers wrote:

Man you're right - I thought marine bikes were over 30 points. They are only 23. That is pretty insanel.

I think bananas have the durability edge though. Probably the melee edge, too.

12 T6 2+/4++ vs 26 T5 3+


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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm confused, wtf is a Biker Captain? Is that a Chaplain on a bike? Or does he mean Biker Sgt? Because I can't find Biker Captain. What am I screwing up?

Captain on a bike, yes - to give reroll 1s.


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dreadlybrew wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
What tyranid list?

list is in picture. 48 genestealers, 24 termis, a discount swarmlord, a broodlord and some shooty fexes, and hive tyrant and a boad load of mortal wounds behind 3++ saves.

by turn 3 the only thing left were a handful of the zoes, the warlord. and hive tyrant and his heavys.

even with a lot of LOS blocking terrain. the opponent was able to completely route me. t7 is meaningless against sheer volume. 70 rolls hitting on 2s rerolling 1s will hit. there wasnt a single shooting phase were i didnt loose a unit and a half. and even with GS swift and deadly they could just be kited.

Yea you might need to ally in a kelermorph or bump up your D2 shooting in some other way.

Ok, next question:

Were you engaging the bikes on the Plains of Flatlandia, or did you seek LOS?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, next question:

Were you engaging the bikes on the Plains of Flatlandia, or did you seek LOS?

Probably not much you can do to hide from a 14" move.

dreadlybrew wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
What tyranid list?

list is in picture. 48 genestealers, 24 termis, a discount swarmlord, a broodlord and some shooty fexes, and hive tyrant and a boad load of mortal wounds behind 3++ saves.

by turn 3 the only thing left were a handful of the zoes, the warlord. and hive tyrant and his heavys.

even with a lot of LOS blocking terrain. the opponent was able to completely route me. t7 is meaningless against sheer volume. 70 rolls hitting on 2s rerolling 1s will hit. there wasnt a single shooting phase were i didnt loose a unit and a half. and even with GS swift and deadly they could just be kited.

You need to introduce him to trygons with devilgaunts and FHT.

So, I'm not going to lie, it sounds like from what you said you were given an impossible list to face off against. A mostly melee army against a shooty army, goes that way some times.

I am not familiar with 'nids, but don't you have a hide in the shadows thing, where you can disappear off the board and ambush somewhere else? Like not GSC style, but your own weird thing?

Also, I would like to see his list. Just out of curiosity.

zerosignal wrote:
Tactical Squads should get Objective Secured (ie super-scoring) over and above the other 'OS' types.

That'd make them relative again, and tie in with their moniker.

Why? What about a tactical squad makes them better at holding a position?


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 Xenomancers wrote:


In terms of actual stats that matter. A sister is a T3 marine with a 6++ save - they should cost 1 to 2 points less. This is common sense to anyone with the ability to reason. A scout has t4 4+ to t3 3+. You realize these stats give you the same results defensively against small arms...so in other words...THEY HAVE THE SAME DEFENSIVE PROFILE vs most weapons.

Except that scouts still have WS 3+ and Str 4. Those aren't free. Yes, I know you like to beat the "It doesn't matter" drum, but it's still relevant, and gives scouts options that sisters and IG don't have. Sure, they're relatively close against small arms in terms of durability. That's not the only thing in the game.


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Also want to point out...

A sister is now 9 points. -2 the cost of marines is 7, -1 for the sat difference between a scout and a sister is 6. So by your own words, 6 point sisters.

Which I want to point out, isn't something I'm actually pushing for.

Back to talking about Bolter rules.

 Mmmpi wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
Tactical Squads should get Objective Secured (ie super-scoring) over and above the other 'OS' types.

That'd make them relative again, and tie in with their moniker.

Why? What about a tactical squad makes them better at holding a position?


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 Xenomancers wrote:


In terms of actual stats that matter. A sister is a T3 marine with a 6++ save - they should cost 1 to 2 points less. This is common sense to anyone with the ability to reason. A scout has t4 4+ to t3 3+. You realize these stats give you the same results defensively against small arms...so in other words...THEY HAVE THE SAME DEFENSIVE PROFILE vs most weapons.

Except that scouts still have WS 3+ and Str 4. Those aren't free. Yes, I know you like to beat the "It doesn't matter" drum, but it's still relevant, and gives scouts options that sisters and IG don't have. Sure, they're relatively close against small arms in terms of durability. That's not the only thing in the game.


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Also want to point out...

A sister is now 9 points. -2 the cost of marines is 7, -1 for the sat difference between a scout and a sister is 6. So by your own words, 6 point sisters.

Which I want to point out, isn't something I'm actually pushing for.

Back to talking about Bolter rules.

...Except the S4 and WS3+ doesn't matter.

Except when they do.

So your proposing mabey giving tac marines a rule like:


Last stand- For every model in this unit that dies within 3" of an objective, you count the unit size as 2 higher for the purpose of determining how many Ob-sec models are contesting this objective (i.e. 3 marines fell so the 5 man unit now counts as 8 models towards holding the objective) until the end of the battle round.

if all they wanted were sign posts holding guns, they could have created a new unit like th Tau Gun sentries.

But Tactical Marines should be doing stuff and accomplishing stuff on the move. Not setting themselves up in mobile guntowers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Except the S4 and WS3+ doesn't matter.

Having been counter charged recently, yeah, yeah it really does. It may not be the optimum way to do damage, but it can absolutely beat the snot out of some folks.

I was charged by rubric marines Sunday and it turned out to have been a good idea. Tactically screwed my day up and the survivor left me unable to deploy reserves for another good 6 inches away from the main body of his force. Which eventually lead to me over extending my HQs to try and compensate getting one of them killed.

You can't be charged by rubrics in 8th edition. no 1ksons or chaos soup army runs them. I mean someone may as well say that GK are dominating so hard they have never lost a game with them in 8th and they played 3 games each day.

Karol wrote:
You can't be charged by rubrics in 8th edition. no 1ksons or chaos soup army runs them. I mean someone may as well say that GK are dominating so hard they have never lost a game with them in 8th and they played 3 games each day.

And this is why I don't take this site overly seriously. Guy I was playing has consistently had the most interesting games in our club, ran 90% rubrics till this game in which he added some of the disk-tang madness to his list.

Because you know, some people play games because they're fun or interesting, rather than just trying to win in a tournament environment.

But I didn't say anything about them being amazing, I mean, one of the more expensive shooty troop units in the game made a good decision by using it's rather unimpressive melee stat line and general durability which resulted in tactical results which changed the game. Tactics being that thing that wins games other than list building or rubbing two pages of rules together. Never mind having my ass handed to me because I charged primaris with an undersized unit a few weeks back, yall are full of gak when you say those boys can't hit back well.

Ok, what is the chance that around the world chaos soups run rubrics regularly enough for the arugment that tactical stats is what makes them good to be valid? Again this is the same type of argument I made about someone rocking it with GK. Maybe it isn't a lie, maybe it is true, but the probability that it is true for the majority of people playing w40k is rather slim.

There are probably people out there who like root canal treatment, but saying it is not that bad, because they like it, is kind of a false argument.

Also charged with primaris??? From what I know the only primaris units being used are hellblasters in DA castel builds, and they never charge. And DW pre CA, but now they all just run vets.

Your giving some sort of bizzar example where rubric fight primaris in melee, and use it as an example, true or false , of a very specific thing being right.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Karol wrote:
You can't be charged by rubrics in 8th edition. no 1ksons or chaos soup army runs them. I mean someone may as well say that GK are dominating so hard they have never lost a game with them in 8th and they played 3 games each day.

And this is why I don't take this site overly seriously. Guy I was playing has consistently had the most interesting games in our club, ran 90% rubrics till this game in which he added some of the disk-tang madness to his list.

Because you know, some people play games because they're fun or interesting, rather than just trying to win in a tournament environment.

But I didn't say anything about them being amazing, I mean, one of the more expensive shooty troop units in the game made a good decision by using it's rather unimpressive melee stat line and general durability which resulted in tactical results which changed the game. Tactics being that thing that wins games other than list building or rubbing two pages of rules together. Never mind having my ass handed to me because I charged primaris with an undersized unit a few weeks back, yall are full of gak when you say those boys can't hit back well.

Agreed. There are some posters on dakka who seem to have a quite narrow view (or experience) of the game leading to hyperbolic arguments of units "never seeing play" or being "unplayable", which is usually nonsense or only focuses on the TOP 10 of some tournaments.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Karol wrote:
You can't be charged by rubrics in 8th edition. no 1ksons or chaos soup army runs them. I mean someone may as well say that GK are dominating so hard they have never lost a game with them in 8th and they played 3 games each day.

And this is why I don't take this site overly seriously. Guy I was playing has consistently had the most interesting games in our club, ran 90% rubrics till this game in which he added some of the disk-tang madness to his list.

Because you know, some people play games because they're fun or interesting, rather than just trying to win in a tournament environment.

But I didn't say anything about them being amazing, I mean, one of the more expensive shooty troop units in the game made a good decision by using it's rather unimpressive melee stat line and general durability which resulted in tactical results which changed the game. Tactics being that thing that wins games other than list building or rubbing two pages of rules together. Never mind having my ass handed to me because I charged primaris with an undersized unit a few weeks back, yall are full of gak when you say those boys can't hit back well.

Agreed. There are some posters on dakka who seem to have a quite narrow view (or experience) of the game leading to hyperbolic arguments of units "never seeing play" or being "unplayable", which is usually nonsense or only focuses on the TOP 10 of some tournaments.

Just mentally add "in tournament play" to arguments like that because that's exactly what these people mean.

Yes, bad units will see play in less competitive environments, but they're still bad.

Doesn't matter as much for narrative missions, for example, but it's still a valid point. I'd prefer if all my units were decent choices even for non-competitive play.

Karol wrote:
Ok, what is the chance that around the world chaos soups run rubrics regularly enough for the arugment that tactical stats is what makes them good to be valid? Again this is the same type of argument I made about someone rocking it with GK. Maybe it isn't a lie, maybe it is true, but the probability that it is true for the majority of people playing w40k is rather slim.

There are probably people out there who like root canal treatment, but saying it is not that bad, because they like it, is kind of a false argument.

Also charged with primaris??? From what I know the only primaris units being used are hellblasters in DA castel builds, and they never charge. And DW pre CA, but now they all just run vets.

Your giving some sort of bizzar example where rubric fight primaris in melee, and use it as an example, true or false , of a very specific thing being right.

Your missing the forest for the trees. He's saying that the extra WS and S made a difference in a recent game of his.

 Mmmpi wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ok, what is the chance that around the world chaos soups run rubrics regularly enough for the arugment that tactical stats is what makes them good to be valid? Again this is the same type of argument I made about someone rocking it with GK. Maybe it isn't a lie, maybe it is true, but the probability that it is true for the majority of people playing w40k is rather slim.

There are probably people out there who like root canal treatment, but saying it is not that bad, because they like it, is kind of a false argument.

Also charged with primaris??? From what I know the only primaris units being used are hellblasters in DA castel builds, and they never charge. And DW pre CA, but now they all just run vets.

Your giving some sort of bizzar example where rubric fight primaris in melee, and use it as an example, true or false , of a very specific thing being right.

Your missing the forest for the trees. He's saying that the extra WS and S made a difference in a recent game of his.

I haven't spent any time with Sisters, but surely Faith shenanigans make up for the extra point difference?

Not really. They're about as useful as ATSKNF.

So, after reading the leaked shadowspear units, I am slightly against the Beta Bolter rule, at least as it applies to Primaris.

Primaris Deathwatch Infiltrators seems like it will get stupid. Do the exploding 6s get the SIA values? I mean, DW shouldn't get any of these new Primaris marines, in my thinking.

This could seriously level the field between the old DW vets and the new primaris normies.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Primaris Deathwatch Infiltrators seems like it will get stupid. Do the exploding 6s get the SIA values?

Assumes facts not in evidence, then proceeds to freak out about them. Classic.


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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


This could seriously level the field between the old DW vets and the new primaris normies.

Not even close.