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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ok, what is the chance that around the world chaos soups run rubrics regularly enough for the arugment that tactical stats is what makes them good to be valid? Again this is the same type of argument I made about someone rocking it with GK. Maybe it isn't a lie, maybe it is true, but the probability that it is true for the majority of people playing w40k is rather slim.

There are probably people out there who like root canal treatment, but saying it is not that bad, because they like it, is kind of a false argument.

Also charged with primaris??? From what I know the only primaris units being used are hellblasters in DA castel builds, and they never charge. And DW pre CA, but now they all just run vets.

Your giving some sort of bizzar example where rubric fight primaris in melee, and use it as an example, true or false , of a very specific thing being right.

Your missing the forest for the trees. He's saying that the extra WS and S made a difference in a recent game of his.

I haven't spent any time with Sisters, but surely Faith shenanigans make up for the extra point difference?

Current faith mechanics are so bad, that GW just released a statement saying they are reworking them from the ground up, becuase most players decided they weren't worth using, making the half of the codex that "buffed" them, worthless.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Karol wrote:
You can't be charged by rubrics in 8th edition. no 1ksons or chaos soup army runs them. I mean someone may as well say that GK are dominating so hard they have never lost a game with them in 8th and they played 3 games each day.

And this is why I don't take this site overly seriously. Guy I was playing has consistently had the most interesting games in our club, ran 90% rubrics till this game in which he added some of the disk-tang madness to his list.

Because you know, some people play games because they're fun or interesting, rather than just trying to win in a tournament environment.

But I didn't say anything about them being amazing, I mean, one of the more expensive shooty troop units in the game made a good decision by using it's rather unimpressive melee stat line and general durability which resulted in tactical results which changed the game. Tactics being that thing that wins games other than list building or rubbing two pages of rules together. Never mind having my ass handed to me because I charged primaris with an undersized unit a few weeks back, yall are full of gak when you say those boys can't hit back well.

Don't listen to them anyway. Rubrics are beasts with the bolter rule. They're also really really hard to kill in melee when you're not dragging anything better than AP0 - it takes 8 Catachans with 3 attacks each to kill one rubric.

Prior to the beta rule being introduced, I was thinking about ways to help out marines and what I came up with was pretty close to what GW gave us in that it was a change to the weapon profile that only affects space marines.

I wanted to make several of the marine weapons into assault weapons, most notably, the bolter and heavy bolter. Basically, when wielded by a marine, a bolter would be assault 2 instead of rapid fire 1. This would have given them that extra range, but wouldn't have encouraged standing still.

While there would certainly be kinks to work out, my rule could actually work well in combination with the rapid fire rule since it would shorten the gap between bolters and storm bolters. Bolters would be the reliable weapon, always able to shoot 2 shots at 24 inches, while storm bolters have a ton of firepower at 12 inches but are more difficult to control at 24 inches (requiring the vet to stand still.)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Karol wrote:
You can't be charged by rubrics in 8th edition. no 1ksons or chaos soup army runs them. I mean someone may as well say that GK are dominating so hard they have never lost a game with them in 8th and they played 3 games each day.

And this is why I don't take this site overly seriously. Guy I was playing has consistently had the most interesting games in our club, ran 90% rubrics till this game in which he added some of the disk-tang madness to his list.

Because you know, some people play games because they're fun or interesting, rather than just trying to win in a tournament environment.

But I didn't say anything about them being amazing, I mean, one of the more expensive shooty troop units in the game made a good decision by using it's rather unimpressive melee stat line and general durability which resulted in tactical results which changed the game. Tactics being that thing that wins games other than list building or rubbing two pages of rules together. Never mind having my ass handed to me because I charged primaris with an undersized unit a few weeks back, yall are full of gak when you say those boys can't hit back well.

Don't listen to them anyway. Rubrics are beasts with the bolter rule. They're also really really hard to kill in melee when you're not dragging anything better than AP0 - it takes 8 Catachans with 3 attacks each to kill one rubric.

If the crux of someone's argument is "It is fine if your opponent just isn't trying at all", it isn't a good argument.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If the crux of someone's argument is "It is fine if your opponent just isn't trying at all", it isn't a good argument.

Except that isn't true at all and you just add to the nonsense hyperbole pile. Is someone going to win top tables with 60 rubrics? Probably not. Are 15 of them going to handicap you? I very much doubt it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If the crux of someone's argument is "It is fine if your opponent just isn't trying at all", it isn't a good argument.

Except that isn't true at all and you just add to the nonsense hyperbole pile. Is someone going to win top tables with 60 rubrics? Probably not. Are 15 of them going to handicap you? I very much doubt it.

I'm very percent sure I'd rather have 8 Scarabs for your 15 Rubrics. Or 6 scarabs and 10 cultists to buy back my troop slot. Unfortunately Rubrics are too slow to do anything unless we DMC them but that would mean we ain't using it for Tzaangors.

I honestly do not understand why Rubrics and Scarabs dropped to 5++ for no apparent reason.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If the crux of someone's argument is "It is fine if your opponent just isn't trying at all", it isn't a good argument.

Except that isn't true at all and you just add to the nonsense hyperbole pile. Is someone going to win top tables with 60 rubrics? Probably not. Are 15 of them going to handicap you? I very much doubt it.

That's 15 of them that cam be going into an entirely different investment.
Rubrics are okay, but let's be honest about their actual performance. "Okay" does not cut it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

If the crux of someone's argument is "It is fine if your opponent just isn't trying at all", it isn't a good argument.

Except that isn't true at all and you just add to the nonsense hyperbole pile. Is someone going to win top tables with 60 rubrics? Probably not. Are 15 of them going to handicap you? I very much doubt it.

That's 15 of them that cam be going into an entirely different investment.
Rubrics are okay, but let's be honest about their actual performance. "Okay" does not cut it.

I find them to be more than okay. Maybe if I can beat the Nova Open waitlist i'll have a chance to prove it.

Booked the hotel...totally slipped my mind to order the ticket. Though I didn't expect it to sell out so fast...:\

So, the question remains unanswered. Currently, it is not proven that Beta Bolters negatively affect balance. Until we see massive over-use of the rule in competitive play, I don't think we can say it needs changing.

That being said, I am starting to see a shift of the game, from large cumbersome singular units like knights, back to the shooty deathstars of 7th. Now it's gather all your cheap shooty bits and blast your opponent off the table. I went to math hammer, and a squad of guardsmen will down a tank (T8 12w) faster than a HWT of Las. Volume of fire is more important than quantity.

And the Beta Bolter rule is part of that. Am I off the mark here?

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, the question remains unanswered. Currently, it is not proven that Beta Bolters negatively affect balance. Until we see massive over-use of the rule in competitive play, I don't think we can say it needs changing.

That being said, I am starting to see a shift of the game, from large cumbersome singular units like knights, back to the shooty deathstars of 7th. Now it's gather all your cheap shooty bits and blast your opponent off the table. I went to math hammer, and a squad of guardsmen will down a tank (T8 12w) faster than a HWT of Las. Volume of fire is more important than quantity.

And the Beta Bolter rule is part of that. Am I off the mark here?

I'm not sure your math is correct.

55 for 10 IS & commander

18 * .5 * .167 * .333 = 0.5 wounds, or 24 such squads (1320 points) to kill it in one go - you will not be getting in RF range with IS.

HWT LC is 32 points

1 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 0.97, or 12.4 such squads (395 points) to kill it in one go

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, the question remains unanswered. Currently, it is not proven that Beta Bolters negatively affect balance. Until we see massive over-use of the rule in competitive play, I don't think we can say it needs changing.

That being said, I am starting to see a shift of the game, from large cumbersome singular units like knights, back to the shooty deathstars of 7th. Now it's gather all your cheap shooty bits and blast your opponent off the table. I went to math hammer, and a squad of guardsmen will down a tank (T8 12w) faster than a HWT of Las. Volume of fire is more important than quantity.

And the Beta Bolter rule is part of that. Am I off the mark here?

I'm not sure your math is correct.

55 for 10 IS & commander

18 * .5 * .167 * .333 = 0.5 wounds, or 24 such squads (1320 points) to kill it in one go - you will not be getting in RF range with IS.

HWT LC is 32 points

1 * .5 * .666 * .833 * 3.5 = 0.97, or 12.4 such squads (395 points) to kill it in one go

I'm sorry, I plugged 4 str in when it should have been 3. I also forgot that you can order HWTs.

That being said, the 2.24 wounds per 40pt IS is obscene. If you compare points, a HWS with LAscannons is 78pts. So a like amount of IS gives you 4.5 wounds. https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/

You're still plugging in something wrong.

There is no way an IS squad can put on 2.2 wounds to T8 3+ under any condition.

Yup. I was. 1.167 unsaved wounds per turn under a 3+ save.

but I was going off the Russ, which has a 5+. m Under those conditions its 2.33 wounds per turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So....this just in....WTF

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/40k-vanguard-space-marine-obscuration-discipline-exposed.html


MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and TAKE AIM are now Psychic spells for Primaris. Now we are in the realms of stupid.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yup. I was. 1.167 unsaved wounds per turn under a 3+ save.

but I was going off the Russ, which has a 5+. m Under those conditions its 2.33 wounds per turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So....this just in....WTF

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/40k-vanguard-space-marine-obscuration-discipline-exposed.html


MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and TAKE AIM are now Psychic spells for Primaris. Now we are in the realms of stupid.

The Leman Russ has a 5+? What?

Also those spells are nowhere near problematic...

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yup. I was. 1.167 unsaved wounds per turn under a 3+ save.

but I was going off the Russ, which has a 5+. m Under those conditions its 2.33 wounds per turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So....this just in....WTF

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/40k-vanguard-space-marine-obscuration-discipline-exposed.html


MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and TAKE AIM are now Psychic spells for Primaris. Now we are in the realms of stupid.

Weak and subpar spells are no where near the realm of stupid... please stop being excited about this trash

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yup. I was. 1.167 unsaved wounds per turn under a 3+ save.

but I was going off the Russ, which has a 5+. m Under those conditions its 2.33 wounds per turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So....this just in....WTF

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/40k-vanguard-space-marine-obscuration-discipline-exposed.html


MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and TAKE AIM are now Psychic spells for Primaris. Now we are in the realms of stupid.

I think you need to check your datasheets. A leman Russ has a 3+ save.

Also, to everyone whining about how weak these powers are -- everyone complains about how good Move Move Move is, so pick one. Is this power ideal for late turn objective grabbing, which is a huge part of winning the game in any format but ITC or is Move Move Move worthless because the game is only about killing stuff when playing ITC?

Or can we agree that it's somewhere in between? And that in most games This power/move move move has a place but isn't the be and end all of abilities?

Pleasestop wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yup. I was. 1.167 unsaved wounds per turn under a 3+ save.

but I was going off the Russ, which has a 5+. m Under those conditions its 2.33 wounds per turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So....this just in....WTF

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/40k-vanguard-space-marine-obscuration-discipline-exposed.html


MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and TAKE AIM are now Psychic spells for Primaris. Now we are in the realms of stupid.

I think you need to check your datasheets. A leman Russ has a 3+ save.

Also, to everyone whining about how weak these powers are -- everyone complains about how good Move Move Move is, so pick one. Is this power ideal for late turn objective grabbing, which is a huge part of winning the game in any format but ITC or is Move Move Move worthless because the game is only about killing stuff when playing ITC?

Or can we agree that it's somewhere in between? And that in most games This power/move move move has a place but isn't the be and end all of abilities?

Move move move is good for an army that has so many bodies. Marines late game will have next to none. Everyone complains marines are bad cause their bad. You can’t pretend their goods so pick one. Don’t complain and accept they are bad, or admit they are bad.

I'll wait and see what all has the Phobos keyword. I figure it'll be more than these 3 kits for vanguard. DI had 3 unit types too, then later we got aggressors and reivers

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'll wait and see what all has the Phobos keyword. I figure it'll be more than these 3 kits for vanguard. DI had 3 unit types too, then later we got aggressors and reivers

The whole dang flock could have it. The powers won’t help at all.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'll wait and see what all has the Phobos keyword. I figure it'll be more than these 3 kits for vanguard. DI had 3 unit types too, then later we got aggressors and reivers

The whole dang flock could have it. The powers won’t help at all.

After seeing that the box is all monopose and silly, leave me something to be optimistic about!

Edit: I know I plan on using hallucination on my friends riptide

Pleasestop wrote:
Also, to everyone whining about how weak these powers are -- everyone complains about how good Move Move Move is, so pick one. Is this power ideal for late turn objective grabbing, which is a huge part of winning the game in any format but ITC or is Move Move Move worthless because the game is only about killing stuff when playing ITC?

Or can we agree that it's somewhere in between? And that in most games This power/move move move has a place but isn't the be and end all of abilities?

Psychic Focus: With the exception of Smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn, rather than once per psyker per turn.
Also note that Temporal Corridor only works on Phobos units, so a rather limited set of units - none of which are Troop choices, and therefore do not have Objective Secured.
And it's still a psychic power which means you have to pass your psychic test and it could be denied by enemy psykers or anti-psi stratagems.
MMM doesn't have any of those limitations.

Just to point out the main differences.

Infiltrators are troops.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
I'll wait and see what all has the Phobos keyword. I figure it'll be more than these 3 kits for vanguard. DI had 3 unit types too, then later we got aggressors and reivers

The whole dang flock could have it. The powers won’t help at all.

After seeing that the box is all monopose and silly, leave me something to be optimistic about!

Edit: I know I plan on using hallucination on my friends riptide

You should be excited cause at least it’s something new for your army to use just hate when people make a huge deal as if it’s broken

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Except the S4 and WS3+ doesn't matter.

Having been counter charged recently, yeah, yeah it really does. It may not be the optimum way to do damage, but it can absolutely beat the snot out of some folks.

I was charged by rubric marines Sunday and it turned out to have been a good idea. Tactically screwed my day up and the survivor left me unable to deploy reserves for another good 6 inches away from the main body of his force. Which eventually lead to me over extending my HQs to try and compensate getting one of them killed.

That's your own fault for having Tau units close enough to get charged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Karol wrote:
Ok, what is the chance that around the world chaos soups run rubrics regularly enough for the arugment that tactical stats is what makes them good to be valid? Again this is the same type of argument I made about someone rocking it with GK. Maybe it isn't a lie, maybe it is true, but the probability that it is true for the majority of people playing w40k is rather slim.

There are probably people out there who like root canal treatment, but saying it is not that bad, because they like it, is kind of a false argument.

Also charged with primaris??? From what I know the only primaris units being used are hellblasters in DA castel builds, and they never charge. And DW pre CA, but now they all just run vets.

Your giving some sort of bizzar example where rubric fight primaris in melee, and use it as an example, true or false , of a very specific thing being right.

Your missing the forest for the trees. He's saying that the extra WS and S made a difference in a recent game of his.

An anecdote does not prove anything. Every other rubric on the table had WS 3+ and S4 but they apparently didn't make a difference in their cases. What did make a difference was their resilience because he couldn't deepstrike.

You also missed the part where he said they killed most of his unit in CC.

 Mmmpi wrote:
You also missed the part where he said they killed most of his unit in CC.

No I didn't I saw that too. It doesn't change the fact that it's an anecdote.

An anecdote that keeps playing out.

New bolter discipline hasn't stopped me getting wiped in my last two games. Granted, I'm a very inexperienced player, but I can't imagine a lot of games have broken down because the bolters are now massacring everything.

My vote is to make it official.

Drager wrote:
Infiltrators are troops.

Indeed. Double-move, pop smoke, sit on objective.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yup. I was. 1.167 unsaved wounds per turn under a 3+ save.

but I was going off the Russ, which has a 5+. m Under those conditions its 2.33 wounds per turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So....this just in....WTF

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/03/40k-vanguard-space-marine-obscuration-discipline-exposed.html


MOVE!MOVE!MOVE! and TAKE AIM are now Psychic spells for Primaris. Now we are in the realms of stupid.

I really want to be in the reality where REQs have a comparable armor save to a guardsman with cardboard armor.