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 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
It's not unclear at all, it's a simple yes or no question on whether someone will allow unpainted minis or not. You just don't like it because the results don't agree with your assertions.

"should painted minis be allowed", how is that clear, what situation are they referring to, how often is it ok etc etc etc. Its very unclear.

No, it's not, you're just trying to add conditions because you want different results. It's a very simple question: Should painted models be allow in 40K, yes or no?

No you're wrong, its not clear, explain to me how the poll question is telling us what kind of situation or how often greys should be allowed. If you don't understand the question posed if incredibly vague i cant help you sorry.

The irony in this statement is hilarious.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
It's not unclear at all, it's a simple yes or no question on whether someone will allow unpainted minis or not. You just don't like it because the results don't agree with your assertions.

"should painted minis be allowed", how is that clear, what situation are they referring to, how often is it ok etc etc etc. Its very unclear.

No, it's not, you're just trying to add conditions because you want different results. It's a very simple question: Should painted models be allow in 40K, yes or no?

No you're wrong, its not clear, explain to me how the poll question is telling us what kind of situation or how often greys should be allowed. If you don't understand the question posed if incredibly vague i cant help you sorry.

The irony in this statement is hilarious.

Expand and explain, or just leave if you have nothing constructive to add.

 Platuan4th wrote:
No, it's not, you're just trying to add conditions because you want different results. It's a very simple question: Should unpainted models be allowed in 40K, yes or no?

And the point is that a black and white yes/no question over-simplifies the issue and skews the results. If your position is "only painted models, except for a new player's first game with the starter set" then you're overwhelmingly on the "painting is expected" side of the debate but you have to answer "yes" to the poll question because there is at least one situation where unpainted models should be permitted. The "yes" answers get all the genuine "yes" votes along with all of the "maybe" votes, while the clear "no" vote only gets the absolute strongest opposition votes. Whether this is deliberate or not I have no idea, but it's certainly not a fair and unbiased poll.

I've already explained how your assertion regarding the question is incorrect, you just refuse to accept it.

Claiming I don't understand while you miss the obvious is ironic, especially since you also feign to take a pretentious, intellectually superior attitude about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
No, it's not, you're just trying to add conditions because you want different results. It's a very simple question: Should unpainted models be allowed in 40K, yes or no?

And the point is that a black and white yes/no question over-simplifies the issue and skews the results. If your position is "only painted models, except for a new player's first game with the starter set" then you're overwhelmingly on the "painting is expected" side of the debate but you have to answer "yes" to the poll question because there is at least one situation where unpainted models should be permitted. The "yes" answers get all the genuine "yes" votes along with all of the "maybe" votes, while the clear "no" vote only gets the absolute strongest opposition votes. Whether this is deliberate or not I have no idea, but it's certainly not a fair and unbiased poll.

No poll on this issue would be unbiased. Does it skew the results? Yes, but the question isn't unclear.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I've already explained how your assertion regarding the question is incorrect, you just refuse to accept it.

Claiming I don't understand while you miss the obvious is ironic, especially since you also feign to take a pretentious, intellectually superior attitude about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
No, it's not, you're just trying to add conditions because you want different results. It's a very simple question: Should unpainted models be allowed in 40K, yes or no?

And the point is that a black and white yes/no question over-simplifies the issue and skews the results. If your position is "only painted models, except for a new player's first game with the starter set" then you're overwhelmingly on the "painting is expected" side of the debate but you have to answer "yes" to the poll question because there is at least one situation where unpainted models should be permitted. The "yes" answers get all the genuine "yes" votes along with all of the "maybe" votes, while the clear "no" vote only gets the absolute strongest opposition votes. Whether this is deliberate or not I have no idea, but it's certainly not a fair and unbiased poll.

No poll on this issue would be unbiased.

Hmm? So i refuse to accept what your saying, i "feign" a attitude...Please say some thing worth while or meaningful to this thread. Instead of de constructive combativeness inputs.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:
I've already explained how your assertion regarding the question is incorrect, you just refuse to accept it.

Claiming I don't understand while you miss the obvious is ironic, especially since you also feign to take a pretentious, intellectually superior attitude about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
No, it's not, you're just trying to add conditions because you want different results. It's a very simple question: Should unpainted models be allowed in 40K, yes or no?

And the point is that a black and white yes/no question over-simplifies the issue and skews the results. If your position is "only painted models, except for a new player's first game with the starter set" then you're overwhelmingly on the "painting is expected" side of the debate but you have to answer "yes" to the poll question because there is at least one situation where unpainted models should be permitted. The "yes" answers get all the genuine "yes" votes along with all of the "maybe" votes, while the clear "no" vote only gets the absolute strongest opposition votes. Whether this is deliberate or not I have no idea, but it's certainly not a fair and unbiased poll.

No poll on this issue would be unbiased. Does it skew the results? Yes, but the question isn't unclear.

Obviously the question technically isn't unclear... But its unclear in terms of what the recipients ( dakka ) would think the question is referring to, or what we are talking about here.

 Stormatious wrote:

Obviously the question technically isn't unclear...

Thank you for finally getting it. There's actually an answer for what you want, BTW, it just asks you to expand in the thread.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Obviously the question technically isn't unclear...

Thank you for finally getting it. That's what I was stating. There's actually an answer for what you want, BTW, it just asks you to expand in the thread.

How is it relevant that the question is technically clear? i could say, Are greys acceptable? ( its technically a clear question... obviously ) but as a question, but its vague in terms of what the recipients would think the question is referring to, so in that sense its unclear... do you get my point?

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Obviously the question technically isn't unclear...

Thank you for finally getting it. That's what I was stating. There's actually an answer for what you want, BTW, it just asks you to expand in the thread.

How is it relevant that the question is technically clear? i could say, Are greys acceptable? as a question, but its vague in terms of what the recipients would think the question is referring to, so in that sense its unclear... do you get my point?

I always got your point, I just disagreed with your assertion that as presented it was unclear, especially since the poll asks to have answers expanded upon if your yes is conditional.

Should unpainted miniatures be allowed?
Yes 55% [ 75 ]
No 24% [ 32 ]
Yes, but only under certain circumstances (please explain) 21% [ 29 ]
Total Votes : 136

If you voted "No", then I REALLY hope you're either buying painted minis or at least paint them on the sprue since you think unpainted minis aren't allowed. If you've got unpainted minis at home you're a hypocrite.

If the question would have been "Should unpainted models be allowed at tournaments?" or "Should unpainted models be allowed at gaming stores?" then people (me included) would have voted differently.

Kall3m0n wrote:
If you voted "No", then I REALLY hope you're either buying painted minis or at least paint them on the sprue since you think unpainted minis aren't allowed. If you've got unpainted minis at home you're a hypocrite.

Yeah, no. That's not even a realistic argument.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Obviously the question technically isn't unclear...

Thank you for finally getting it. That's what I was stating. There's actually an answer for what you want, BTW, it just asks you to expand in the thread.

How is it relevant that the question is technically clear? i could say, Are greys acceptable? as a question, but its vague in terms of what the recipients would think the question is referring to, so in that sense its unclear... do you get my point?

I always got your point, I just disagreed with your assertion that as presented it was unclear, especially since the poll asks to have answers expanded upon if your yes is conditional.

Any question is usually clear unless they spell some thing incorrect etc, my point is its vague and unclear to what the main recipients interpret it as.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Kall3m0n wrote:
If you voted "No", then I REALLY hope you're either buying painted minis or at least paint them on the sprue since you think unpainted minis aren't allowed. If you've got unpainted minis at home you're a hypocrite.

Yeah, no. That's not even a realistic argument.

Yes is it. The question is super clear: Should unpainted mins be allowed?. If you don't think they should be allowed then you have many problems with handling your own greys before they are painted because you don't think they are allowed. The question/poll never specifies under what circumstances they should or should not be allowed. Just allowed. Period.

When I ran a Necromunda event, I made it a rule that after the first game night, there was a week between games- and I expected models to be at least primed and basecoated.

I work as many hours, even more than most people I play with- and I had time to do the basic colors on Sector Mechanicus terrain for a 4x4 table.

I was pretty up front with that. Plus, we had 'paint day' every week where all we did was get together and paint and help each other painting and working models. Some guys are good at edge highlighting, some can do little designs very well, some guys are conversion gurus.

No one had an issue with it. I expect the same in my Kill Team campaign event. Painting requirements also pretty standard for any kind of tournament or league here, and the exception to this is usually "show a receipt from the last few days or last week that this is brand new and you get a pass", otherwise you're not prohibited from playing, but points are deducted from your score.

I won't say "You should have to paint your models". Dude, it's your property and you can do whatever you want with it.

I CAN say that I don't enjoy playing against a horde of unpainted models over and over.

And I CAN say I won't allow someone to play through my events without painting to some degree.

At the end of the day, I have no control, nor do I want any control over what you do with your personal property. I do have control over those whom I interact with and allow to participate in my event, and that's my prerogative.

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Obviously the question technically isn't unclear...

Thank you for finally getting it. That's what I was stating. There's actually an answer for what you want, BTW, it just asks you to expand in the thread.

How is it relevant that the question is technically clear? i could say, Are greys acceptable? as a question, but its vague in terms of what the recipients would think the question is referring to, so in that sense its unclear... do you get my point?

I always got your point, I just disagreed with your assertion that as presented it was unclear, especially since the poll asks to have answers expanded upon if your yes is conditional.

Any question is usually clear unless they spell some thing incorrect etc, my point is its vague and unclear to what the main recipients interpret it as.

Yeah, I got that, thanks. I believe it's intentionally open ended so as more people use that 3rd option and encourage conversation, but it seems most of us want to boil it down to simplicity.

Kall3m0n wrote:
Should unpainted miniatures be allowed?
Yes 55% [ 75 ]
No 24% [ 32 ]
Yes, but only under certain circumstances (please explain) 21% [ 29 ]
Total Votes : 136

If you voted "No", then I REALLY hope you're either buying painted minis or at least paint them on the sprue since you think unpainted minis aren't allowed. If you've got unpainted minis at home you're a hypocrite.

If the question would have been "Should unpainted models be allowed at tournaments?" or "Should unpainted models be allowed at gaming stores?" then people (me included) would have voted differently.

Are you ok in the head? I voted No and have about 2 yrs of back log of grey plastics, some prepped and ready to be painted, some still on sprue; I also have a vast of miniatures painted to a high standard, some(Tau, IG) were stripped and repainted as my skills increased.

I played this guy with a grey army once, he lost, wanted a rematch with new list( I kept the same list), he lost; he came back next week and wanted to game with grey plastic, I refused to play as it was not enjoyable for me, I did the minimum to play anybody no matter the army or state of their army at least once(rematch if opponent lost), people like him in this hobby can GTFO and play MtG or games that have pre painted minis.

EDIT: watch first 5 min of this interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ4eEfBOStw

 Stormatious wrote:
But is this some thing you don't mind all the time?

I will support someone who enjoys painting, encouraging them to paint their miniatures; especially someone who is good at it. Someone who doesn't have the time, energy, or talent to paint, I'm not gonna begrudge them that. Not everyone can afford to hire someone else to paint the army for them.

As for "contributing to the graying of the hobby", the painting and modeling portion of the hobby is as big as ever, if not bigger than ever.

If you have time to play the game you have time to paint your models. If you have time to post on forums about 40k you have time to paint your models. Very, very few people are genuinely unable to paint their models before playing, the vast majority simply refuse to do their part to create an enjoyable game experience and expect everyone else to lower their standards to accommodate their refusal.

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Obviously the question technically isn't unclear...

Thank you for finally getting it. That's what I was stating. There's actually an answer for what you want, BTW, it just asks you to expand in the thread.

How is it relevant that the question is technically clear? i could say, Are greys acceptable? as a question, but its vague in terms of what the recipients would think the question is referring to, so in that sense its unclear... do you get my point?

I always got your point, I just disagreed with your assertion that as presented it was unclear, especially since the poll asks to have answers expanded upon if your yes is conditional.

Any question is usually clear unless they spell some thing incorrect etc, my point is its vague and unclear to what the main recipients interpret it as.

You LITERALLY started a thread asking to create policy that enforced rules of no non-painted models allowed inside stores. If you had grey plastic play at home. That was LITERALLY your stance. The question "Should non-painted models be allowed" "No" "Yes" "Yes but with conditions, please explain".

If your answer wasn't "yes" then you think you have some say in enforcing a rule against others for not doing the extra work you do. Which makes you an elitist. Which makes you wrong.

 Big Mac wrote:

Kall3m0n wrote:
Should unpainted miniatures be allowed?
Yes 55% [ 75 ]
No 24% [ 32 ]
Yes, but only under certain circumstances (please explain) 21% [ 29 ]
Total Votes : 136

If you voted "No", then I REALLY hope you're either buying painted minis or at least paint them on the sprue since you think unpainted minis aren't allowed. If you've got unpainted minis at home you're a hypocrite.

If the question would have been "Should unpainted models be allowed at tournaments?" or "Should unpainted models be allowed at gaming stores?" then people (me included) would have voted differently.

Are you ok in the head? I voted No and have about 2 yrs of back log of grey plastics, some prepped and ready to be painted, some still on sprue; I also have a vast of miniatures painted to a high standard, some(Tau, IG) were stripped and repainted as my skills increased.

I played this guy with a grey army once, he lost, wanted a rematch with new list( I kept the same list), he lost; he came back next week and wanted to game with grey plastic, I refused to play as it was not enjoyable for me, I did the minimum to play anybody no matter the army or state of their army at least once(rematch if opponent lost), people like him in this hobby can GTFO and play MtG or games that have pre painted minis.

EDIT: watch first 5 min of this interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ4eEfBOStw

I'm trying to show how this poll is extremely poor. He asks if greys should be allowed. PERIOD. He doesn't specify when, where or why. There needs to be a specification. If you think that unpainted models shouldn't be allowed PERIOD, then that includes everywhere, no matter why.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you have time to play the game you have time to paint your models. If you have time to post on forums about 40k you have time to paint your models. Very, very few people are genuinely unable to paint their models before playing, the vast majority simply refuse to do their part to create an enjoyable game experience and expect everyone else to lower their standards to accommodate their refusal.

This isn't a question of time or ability. Nobody has to do what you want them to do. You wanting to enforce policy that gate keeps them makes you a toxic element of the community. I would rather RAISE the standards of the community by driving you out.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:

Obviously the question technically isn't unclear...

Thank you for finally getting it. That's what I was stating. There's actually an answer for what you want, BTW, it just asks you to expand in the thread.

How is it relevant that the question is technically clear? i could say, Are greys acceptable? as a question, but its vague in terms of what the recipients would think the question is referring to, so in that sense its unclear... do you get my point?

I always got your point, I just disagreed with your assertion that as presented it was unclear, especially since the poll asks to have answers expanded upon if your yes is conditional.

Any question is usually clear unless they spell some thing incorrect etc, my point is its vague and unclear to what the main recipients interpret it as.

You LITERALLY started a thread asking to create policy that enforced rules of no non-painted models allowed inside stores. If you had grey plastic play at home. That was LITERALLY your stance. The question "Should non-painted models be allowed" "No" "Yes" "Yes but with conditions, please explain".

If your answer wasn't "yes" then you think you have some say in enforcing a rule against others for not doing the extra work you do. Which makes you an elitist. Which makes you wrong.

Enforce is probably the wrong word, i really should say highly encourage and highly discourage, so my bad. I dont mean enforce as in barring people, or telling them go away, but have rules applied in a general sense, but exceptions for understandable reasons.

Kall3m0n wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

Kall3m0n wrote:
Should unpainted miniatures be allowed?
Yes 55% [ 75 ]
No 24% [ 32 ]
Yes, but only under certain circumstances (please explain) 21% [ 29 ]
Total Votes : 136

If you voted "No", then I REALLY hope you're either buying painted minis or at least paint them on the sprue since you think unpainted minis aren't allowed. If you've got unpainted minis at home you're a hypocrite.

If the question would have been "Should unpainted models be allowed at tournaments?" or "Should unpainted models be allowed at gaming stores?" then people (me included) would have voted differently.

Are you ok in the head? I voted No and have about 2 yrs of back log of grey plastics, some prepped and ready to be painted, some still on sprue; I also have a vast of miniatures painted to a high standard, some(Tau, IG) were stripped and repainted as my skills increased.

I played this guy with a grey army once, he lost, wanted a rematch with new list( I kept the same list), he lost; he came back next week and wanted to game with grey plastic, I refused to play as it was not enjoyable for me, I did the minimum to play anybody no matter the army or state of their army at least once(rematch if opponent lost), people like him in this hobby can GTFO and play MtG or games that have pre painted minis.

EDIT: watch first 5 min of this interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ4eEfBOStw

I'm trying to show how this poll is extremely poor. He asks if greys should be allowed. PERIOD. He doesn't specify when, where or why. There needs to be a specification. If you think that unpainted models shouldn't be allowed PERIOD, then that includes everywhere, no matter why.

Correct. And if you think greys should ONLY be allowed under specific circumstances then you choose "Yes, but only under certain circumstances (please explain)". and then explain. It's a very clear poll. If you don't think they should be allowed always choose option 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormatious wrote:

Enforce is probably the wrong word, i really should say highly encourage and highly discourage, so my bad.

Let me be clearer. Highly discourage is also bad. You can encourage people to paint. You can't give people gak for not painting. Well, you can, but it makes you a prick.

 Lance845 wrote:

Kall3m0n wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

Kall3m0n wrote:
Should unpainted miniatures be allowed?
Yes 55% [ 75 ]
No 24% [ 32 ]
Yes, but only under certain circumstances (please explain) 21% [ 29 ]
Total Votes : 136

If you voted "No", then I REALLY hope you're either buying painted minis or at least paint them on the sprue since you think unpainted minis aren't allowed. If you've got unpainted minis at home you're a hypocrite.

If the question would have been "Should unpainted models be allowed at tournaments?" or "Should unpainted models be allowed at gaming stores?" then people (me included) would have voted differently.

Are you ok in the head? I voted No and have about 2 yrs of back log of grey plastics, some prepped and ready to be painted, some still on sprue; I also have a vast of miniatures painted to a high standard, some(Tau, IG) were stripped and repainted as my skills increased.

I played this guy with a grey army once, he lost, wanted a rematch with new list( I kept the same list), he lost; he came back next week and wanted to game with grey plastic, I refused to play as it was not enjoyable for me, I did the minimum to play anybody no matter the army or state of their army at least once(rematch if opponent lost), people like him in this hobby can GTFO and play MtG or games that have pre painted minis.

EDIT: watch first 5 min of this interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ4eEfBOStw

I'm trying to show how this poll is extremely poor. He asks if greys should be allowed. PERIOD. He doesn't specify when, where or why. There needs to be a specification. If you think that unpainted models shouldn't be allowed PERIOD, then that includes everywhere, no matter why.

Correct. And if you think greys should ONLY be allowed under specific circumstances then you choose "Yes, but only under certain circumstances (please explain)". and then explain. It's a very clear poll. If you don't think they should be allowed always choose option 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormatious wrote:

Enforce is probably the wrong word, i really should say highly encourage and highly discourage, so my bad.

Let me be clearer. Highly discourage is also bad. You can encourage people to paint. You can't give people gak for not painting. Well, you can, but it makes you a prick.

I dont mean enforce as in barring people, or telling them go away, but have rules applied in a general sense, but exceptions for understandable reasons.

And i dont mean highly discourage in a negative way, just literally what the definition of what im saying means.

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't a question of time or ability. Nobody has to do what you want them to do. You wanting to enforce policy that gate keeps them makes you a toxic element of the community. I would rather RAISE the standards of the community by driving you out.

Gatekeeping is not always a bad thing. Requiring painted models makes the community a better place even if it means that some people decide to leave. It's just like how we "gatekeep" people by expecting them to assemble their models instead of using a bunch of random space marine legs on bases and cardboard boxes as a "Tau" army, run tournaments with chess clocks even though it means that slower players aren't discouraged from participating, etc. Those rules improve the experience for the people who stay, and if someone doesn't like a store telling them that they have to buy legitimate models to use their table space then that's just the cost of having a quality gaming experience.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If you have time to play the game you have time to paint your models. If you have time to post on forums about 40k you have time to paint your models. Very, very few people are genuinely unable to paint their models before playing, the vast majority simply refuse to do their part to create an enjoyable game experience and expect everyone else to lower their standards to accommodate their refusal.

This isn't a question of time or ability. Nobody has to do what you want them to do. You wanting to enforce policy that gate keeps them makes you a toxic element of the community. I would rather RAISE the standards of the community by driving you out.

I wish I could exalt this post a million times.

Listen to me.

No rules. Never.

None.

Do you want general rules in a general way about painted models?

No, None.

By the literal definition of highly discourage. By the literal definition of SLIGHTLY discourage. I disagree with you. Fundamentally and in all ways.

At no point, on any level, do I think you or anyone else should feel entitled to discourage anyone for playing with their toy soldiers how they see fit.

For my part, I'm just mostly tired of the "kids these days" arguments going on here.

 Lance845 wrote:
At no point, on any level, do I think you or anyone else should feel entitled to discourage anyone for playing with their toy soldiers how they see fit.

So you're fine with people making a Nurgle army by covering the models in actual plague filth and bringing it to a game? Or did you mean to say "no point, on any level, except the level where I think there should be limits"? Because literally "no limits at all" is a pretty extreme position to hold and I don't think anyone genuinely agrees with it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't a question of time or ability. Nobody has to do what you want them to do. You wanting to enforce policy that gate keeps them makes you a toxic element of the community. I would rather RAISE the standards of the community by driving you out.

Gatekeeping is not always a bad thing.

Yes it is.

Requiring painted models makes the community a better place even if it means that some people decide to leave.

No it doesn't.

It's just like how we "gatekeep" people by expecting them to assemble their models instead of using a bunch of random space marine legs on bases and cardboard boxes as a "Tau" army,

No it's not. Assembled models are needed to make proper measurements to follow the rules of the game. Paint isn't.

run tournaments with chess clocks even though it means that slower players aren't discouraged from participating, etc. Those rules improve the experience for the people who stay, and if someone doesn't like a store telling them that they have to buy legitimate models to use their table space then that's just the cost of having a quality gaming experience.

False equivalency. Paint is none of the examples you gave. Clocks prevent forms of cheating like attempting to run out the clock on limited time matches. Paint does nothing and prevents nothing.

No ones telling any one what they have to do. In a casual situation you can do what you want, its all about the re enforcing the general core idea of what is generally and widly preferred and traditional done. So when people turn up to gw shops or what ever they come with painted models, generally most people dont want them flooded with greys, you can see that with my other threads on this subject that this is true.