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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Ishagu wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:


What if I love...Kroot models, let's say, but hate their playstyle and feel like the Drukhari rules fit them best?
So I build my army converted, or painted to show differences as needed. Units are distinct and well marked.
Is there an issue with this?


If your army is a quality conversion with models that represent the rules you're using effectively, it can be considered on a case by case basis.

Your army could just as easily be a rubbish set of proxies. 40k is a visual game.

You can't just be giving special exceptions whenever you feel like it. Either you're for true WYSIWYG or not.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


OR are you saying I can only use the OFFICIAL models for HQ units?


Custom chapters using converted HQ models are perfectly fine.


What you said above is truly stupid. There is a massive difference between a proxy and a conversion.
A model can be a true WYSIWYG that has been converted from other kits.

For every great conversion there are dozens of lazy proxies. In my original comment I specifically said that conversions can be considered on a case by case basis. What I am categorically against are specific Lazy proxies by Meta Chasers who want all the rules advantages without putting in any efforts.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/12 16:17:24


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Ishagu wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


OR are you saying I can only use the OFFICIAL models for HQ units?


Custom chapters using converted HQ models are perfectly fine.


What you said above is truly stupid. There is a massive difference between a proxy and a conversion.
A model can be a true WYSIWYG that has been converted.

For every great conversion there are dozens of lazy proxies. In my original comment I specifically said that conversions can be considered on a case by case basis.

It isn't stupid because Power Fists =/= Fists of Ultramar, especially when the model I'm planning to work on will only have the Bolter part attached to one fist. Or what if I decide to go a different route and decide I want to put double barrels in a Thunder Hammer for my Calgar stand-in?

No matter the effort it won't be correct.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

You are being pedantic, but you know what? That's perfectly fine.

I will not agree to play your proxy filled army. It doesn't deserve to be on the same tabletop as mine.

Is that what you want to hear?


Edit:

Hold up, you're actually not using the correct wargear? I actually would not be happy to play that because those are proxies and not conversions, so to speak.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/12 16:21:39


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in is
Courageous Beastmaster




Iceland

This is why I am against these sub-faction traits. They are horribly unbalanced so often you end up with a decade of painted models in a scheme that might not be viable if you are playing Matched games.

The funny thing the only winner in this is Games Workshop which will get the color obsessive individuals to buy as well as force others to buy more models just to satisfy the color obsessive ones. Have 4 Wave Serpents in Saim-hann? Sucks to be you, now buy 4 more to paint them Alaitoc* otherwise you'll lose every game until the sun goes out. People need to remember that this is a new problem and people have spent thousands of bucks before encountering this problem that GW created.

What GW should have done is to make sub-faction traits so generic that you will never have a reason to pick a specific chapter. That way most people win. Otherwise sub-faction traits should be left out of this game altogether.

*I sincerely hope Alaitoc gets thrown to the wolves next codex around btw.

Cypher | Craftworlds | Drukhari | Dark Angels | Necrons | Emperor's Children(30k/40k) | Tyranids | Orks | Death Guard | Sisters of Battle

Daughters of Khaine | Blades of Khorne | Stormcast Eternals | Flesh-Eater Courts | Idoneth Deepkin
 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

You have to understand that factions rise and fall, it is always the way - as it should be. The meta should NOT be static, and in fairness there isn't a massive gap between Codex chapters from what we've seen thus far - we've not seen the full RG rules. WS can definitely hold their own against Ultras with their outflanking Repulsors and what not lol.

It's why it's important to focus on ones you like beyond just tabletop performance, or to accept that if that's your biggest focus you'll have to buy a lot more models more regularly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/12 16:35:07


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Ishagu wrote:
You have to understand that factions rise and fall, it is always the way - as it should be. The meta should NOT be static, and in fairness there isn't a massive gap between Codex chapters from what we've seen thus far - we've not seen the full RG rules. WS can definitely hold their own against Ultras with their outflanking Repulsors and what not lol.

It's why it's important to focus on ones you like beyond just tabletop performance, or to accept that if that's your biggest focus you'll have to buy a lot more models more regularly.


NO that is what you feel like should be the case. Some people like to chase the rules and if you don't want to play them fine, but they are also not in the wrong from any rule standpoint. Especially if they have a generic paint job. For me if I would be ok playing a generic paint job using the best rules, why should I care about a specific paint job using those same rules? What you are arguing for is for people who do want to chase the meta actually having worse looking armies as they figure they shouldn't spend time because they will just need to toss those models soon to get new ones. Better to be happy to play against whichever rules and appreciate a good paint job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarsif wrote:
This is why I am against these sub-faction traits. They are horribly unbalanced so often you end up with a decade of painted models in a scheme that might not be viable if you are playing Matched games.

The funny thing the only winner in this is Games Workshop which will get the color obsessive individuals to buy as well as force others to buy more models just to satisfy the color obsessive ones. Have 4 Wave Serpents in Saim-hann? Sucks to be you, now buy 4 more to paint them Alaitoc* otherwise you'll lose every game until the sun goes out. People need to remember that this is a new problem and people have spent thousands of bucks before encountering this problem that GW created.

What GW should have done is to make sub-faction traits so generic that you will never have a reason to pick a specific chapter. That way most people win. Otherwise sub-faction traits should be left out of this game altogether.

*I sincerely hope Alaitoc gets thrown to the wolves next codex around btw.


I would have liked to have seen those traits be generic but favor different units, maybe making some cheaper or what not. Rather than be across the board bonuses.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/12 16:46:26


 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

When have I said it's not ok to chase the rules?

It's more than ok. As long as you recognise that 40k is visual game and you respect your opponent by using the correct models that are pained appropriately.

A generic paint job is 100% fine. When did I say otherwise? Don't put words in my mouth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/12 16:48:07


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader




For the tournament I am currently on a train to attend, I have a lovelying homemade Inquisitor using the rules for Colonel Iron Hand Straken, I also have a Sister Hospitiler proxing as an Imperial Guard Medic.

I also have the Colonel Iron Hand Straken Model, and an Imperial Guard Medic spare in my case, so on a player by player basis, I can use whatever models my opponent is happy with.

Why can't everyone else do it both ways, too?

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




AdmiralHalsey wrote:

Why can't everyone else do it both ways, too?


Because some people are incapable of having fun if they arent dictating how others have fun.
   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





 Ishagu wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:


What if I love...Kroot models, let's say, but hate their playstyle and feel like the Drukhari rules fit them best?
So I build my army converted, or painted to show differences as needed. Units are distinct and well marked.
Is there an issue with this?


If your army is a quality conversion with models that represent the rules you're using effectively, it can be considered on a case by case basis.

Your army could just as easily be a rubbish set of proxies. 40k is a visual game.


Who determines what a "rubbish set of proxies" is?
I'm mostly blind, my conversion and painting skills aren't horrible, but not really that advanced.
I convert my models so that I can play better with them, that means in many cases they're converted for tactile purposes. I don't base my models and I paint clear bases black so I don't lose models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/12 16:58:24


Girl Gamers are the best! 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Ishagu wrote:
When have I said it's not ok to chase the rules?

It's more than ok. As long as you recognise that 40k is visual game and you respect your opponent by using the correct models that are pained appropriately.

A generic paint job is 100% fine. When did I say otherwise? Don't put words in my mouth.


The issue is the double standard that generic paint is ok but specific is not. Your opponent playing their Ultra Marines using the White Scars tactics is in no way visually appalling. The problem is the attitude that if you want to use better rules you must either buy new models or repaint because you chose a specific color scheme. The issue is it comes across as you saying "chasing rules is bad, and if I can stop you I will because you should play the way I do."
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Breng77 wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
When have I said it's not ok to chase the rules?

It's more than ok. As long as you recognise that 40k is visual game and you respect your opponent by using the correct models that are pained appropriately.

A generic paint job is 100% fine. When did I say otherwise? Don't put words in my mouth.


The issue is the double standard that generic paint is ok but specific is not. Your opponent playing their Ultra Marines using the White Scars tactics is in no way visually appalling. The problem is the attitude that if you want to use better rules you must either buy new models or repaint because you chose a specific color scheme. The issue is it comes across as you saying "chasing rules is bad, and if I can stop you I will because you should play the way I do."


This.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Douglasville, GA

I'm just glad my faction is known for a hodge-podge appearance, so running Evil Sunz with Orkz in blue wargear is perfectly within the fluff.
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

My opinion is shared by Games Workshop itself, the creators of this hobby.


-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 Ishagu wrote:
My opinion is shared by Games Workshop itself, the creators of this hobby.



So it is shared by a profit motivated corporation? and that makes it correct in some way?

I'm sure GW always wants people to buy more models.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ishagu wrote:
My opinion is shared by Games Workshop itself, the creators of this hobby.



Oh yeah, thats the elitist gatekeeping we're looking for.

(It's also 100% bs, but we knew that already).
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

How do you know that what you assume is someones Ultramarines army being played with the Iron Hands rules isn't actually an Iron Hands army who were devilishly covered in blue paint by a rogue inquisitor on their way to the battle?

Fluff hooray!

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Sterling191 wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
My opinion is shared by Games Workshop itself, the creators of this hobby.



Oh yeah, thats the elitist gatekeeping we're looking for.

(It's also 100% bs, but we knew that already).


Especially funny because Elites often get a head shorter in their mid to late part of their life

Le jour de gloire est arrivé....

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






"My army is Alpha Legion in an Ultramarine disguise using Iron Hand battle tactics in order to confuse the enemy and Horus did nothing wrong and Guilliman is Alpharius (and so is Malcador)."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/12 17:50:03


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 BaconCatBug wrote:
"My army is Alpha Legion in an Ultramarine disguise using Iron Hand battle tactics in order to confuse the enemy and Horus did nothing wrong and Guilliman is Alpharius (and so is Malcador)."


But I'm using Eldar models because I've not brought the SpaceMarines yet. Is that okay? The Guardians with no arms are the lascannon devestators, and the ones with the arms are primaris. And the Wraithlord is the Landrader, and the pink wrathlord is the Dreadnought.

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




AdmiralHalsey wrote:

But I'm using Eldar models because I've not brought the SpaceMarines yet. Is that okay? The Guardians with no arms are the lascannon devestators, and the ones with the arms are primaris. And the Wraithlord is the Landrader, and the pink wrathlord is the Dreadnought.


Are you consistent with your proxy play? Then bring it the feth on and roll them dice.

Poorhammer is just as valid of a way to play the game.
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

Side question - who here has run across opponents who are using multiple marine chapters in a single army?

I haven’t even tried a soup list, much less different chapters in the same army, so the whole affair boggles me a bit.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Stormonu wrote:
Side question - who here has run across opponents who are using multiple marine chapters in a single army?

I haven’t even tried a soup list, much less different chapters in the same army, so the whole affair boggles me a bit.


The most common scenario these days is a Codex Marine detachment complementing a non-Codex Marine detachment with units and abilities the latter cant access. As an example, I'm pretty routinely running a Scout and Eliminator battalion alongside my Deathwatch.

Seeing multiple Codex Marine detachments is a rarity, but I've seen it a time or two with mixed custom chapters.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





 Stormonu wrote:
Side question - who here has run across opponents who are using multiple marine chapters in a single army?

I haven’t even tried a soup list, much less different chapters in the same army, so the whole affair boggles me a bit.
UM+WS+RG come to mind.
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





In the games I've seen it, it was UM+RG, UM+IF, and IF+RG (Painted as UM)
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit






Across the Rubicon

 Stormonu wrote:
Side question - who here has run across opponents who are using multiple marine chapters in a single army?

I haven’t even tried a soup list, much less different chapters in the same army, so the whole affair boggles me a bit.


I suspect the way Doctrines have an on/off switch may lead this to become more of a thing. Unless the rules already shut it off mixing chapters (which I am initially fer as well). Mostly because I think this had to do with optimized power (read: competitive) play far more than someone just wanting a bunch of chapters working together. Props to anyone going Black Templar and Salamanders if fighting Orks and similar though.

As Ishagu's stance, I agree with a lot of elements of it. I just don't have nearly as hard of a stance on it. I would like to think that the subfaction trait rules that exist for the way you painting your army work well enough that a player could work with them rather than jumping to what they think is best or fits them. Marines in particular have been codified for sometime on how they operate that even most non-marine players have a rough idea what they are good at. For those who painting blue White Scars, great; call them a successor chapter and pretty much make use of their rules sans Characters is better than completely ignoring what has been established. As for the Tyranid big bug player, well I understand that predates subfaction traits. Fortunately, Tyranids live in a space where no one really knows what Hivefleet gets what (or all the named Hivefleets anyways). Easy enough to call it a custom Hivefleet or say it is natural camoflague or something. And I am not against using different traits than how the models are painted. My Primaris chapter are dead ringers for Raptors, but they are not Raptors.

I think the big issue is that I ain't never seen no Alpha Legion army played as Word Bearers. I might be a little old fashioned here, but I do like the idea of supporting the home team thick or thin. I don't think anyone much cares for a 90's era Mariners' fan switching to the baseball team doing well every so often and is currently a Dodgers' fan. As Ishagu mentioned, the rules power spikes and drops among factions frequently that I feel chasing any meta isn't really worth it. It reeks of being happy tomorrow when you could be happy today just playing a nicely painted army you must have liked at some point. If that army gets so weak it is crushed week after week, maybe talk with the group on adding some house rules (which could be as much as playing favoring mission types and terrain-ed tables) to get it up having a fighting chance. I think a true competitor wants a game that has competition to it. Conversely, if your army is riding high on the power level, you can always self regulate. But I understand this is no good for tournament players or those players that play perfect strangers all the time. I also know these issues shouldn't be as extreme if GW rules worked better, but coulda, woulda,shoulda; they are what they are. Curse the dark or work to find some kind of light.

I want to reinforce that I am fine with players counting their army/team as what ever subfaction they want. I just think it diminishes the hobby some in doing so much like not making any effort not to paint you models or going to the trouble of putting a nice table together. It is do-able, but so much of the hobby is lost with it missing. I have a couple of kill teams that I find the subfaction rules subpar (Stygies VIII and Jorgmandgandr). I don't think I will playing them with different traits as they do fit the theme of the subfaction, and I think keeping them aligned with the rules is more important than going than switching to something I find more interesting to use. However, I am not going to hold anyone else to that. Which is fine, I value different elements from the next player.

   
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San Jose, CA

My Salamanders have always been Salamanders and they always will be. No other chapter even remotely interested me so I chose the 18th in RT and dont understand why you would paint an army one scheme then want to run them as an entirely different chapter. I've spent a fair amount of time painting my army to the level I want, it just kinda seems like a waste to change/flipflop for what's the current "best" whatever. How do you expect to learn your army if you're switching constantly playing different ones.
   
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Sterling191 wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
My opinion is shared by Games Workshop itself, the creators of this hobby.



Oh yeah, thats the elitist gatekeeping we're looking for.

(It's also 100% bs, but we knew that already).


As much as it pains me to agree with said individual, he is actually correct. GW's own tournament rules for Warhammer World specify that if your chapter is painted as a recognised one with rules, eg. Dark Angels then you must use the DA rules.

Now, that is a house rule for WHW tournaments but it IS clear that is the way GW wants the wind to blow given the designer's notes in the image I posted earlier ITT.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/12 19:23:04




A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
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Dakka Veteran




Rules do not and should not affect paint schemes and vice versa. The painting part of the hobby should be free of in-game constraints (esp considering how much time it takes to paint, do we really want to punish/restrict painted armies while giving grey/black primed armies a pass?).
GW made a mistake (imo) with specifying that certain factions must take certain traits. Not all players of said faction will like the chosen playstyle, and freedom of choice is greatly impeded. Besides rules change all the time, so it's not like the current rules are integral to the theme of your army anyway. By the next codex they'll be different, so I don't have any attachment to the rule/bonus even if I'm really invested in the faction itself.
   
 
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