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Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





 Kanluwen wrote:
I genuinely cannot think of any game where I have not been able to be alpha-striked out. Maybe Battletech?


Conquest.
Warmaster.
Warmaster Ancients.
Warhammer Fantasy 5th, 6th, part of 7th
Warhammer 40k 3rd and part of 4th with the exception of the Blood Angels Rhino Rush.
Battle tech
Warlords of erehwon
Oathmark
Battlemasters.
Hail Caesar.

Those are all games I have played a ton that did not have the alpha strike levels either at all or close to the levels of modern GW game design. However I am defining alpha strike as the ability to in the beginning of the game simply end the game with no need for maneuver or positioning (ala teleporting or charging across the table turn 1). In Kings of War alpha strike exists, but its a different type of alpha strike that requires at least the opponent to maneuver into position to employ it.

Alpha strike is an intentional design direction implemented in the rules. Through GW its by allowing units to teleport onto the table and just charge and wipe out what it wants, or teleport onto the table and just open fire with all of its obscene weaponry thats now in range, or intentionally having rules that let a unit charge from its starting entry point of the game to be able to contact in one turn.

And alpha strike - like double turn - makes games intrinsically not fun to play because they are all about removing player agency and ending the game without them being able to respond.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/26 20:54:37


Parabellum Conquest Vanguard and champion of all things Conquest: The Last Argument of Kings

www.underspire.net for all things Conquest 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Overread wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
And what happens if you get the double turn but weathered their alpha strike?



The problem is that the double turn doesn't work that way. It has no link to the actual game at all and is a simple impartial dice roll.

Some do say, in defence of the double turn, that IF you get it after your opponent hit you hard that it can rebalance the game in favour of the underdog.

However because the doubleturn has no link to the game state itself, it could equally be the case that the doubleturn takes a balanced match and turns one player into the underdog by virtue of their opponent getting the doubleturn. Heck you could weather an alphastrike and then your opponent gets a doubleturn. All those great dice rolls, all that careful moving earlier, all that positioning; everything you did to weather the alpha is thrown out because of a single dice roll.



Yes it might even an unbalanced game; yes it might unbalance a game; yes it might not happen or it might happen twice in a row or it might happen early or late game. It's disjointed to the game and unpredictable.


And no double turn leads to so many games where you know exactly who wins after seeing army lists. More times that would have been case for me than double turn deciding game.

Only issue with double turn is with mega magic/shooting armies but that's part of issue stemming from bigger issue which is those are too dominating already. Fix those are 99% problems of double turn goes away. Then it's just learn to deal with it.

Without double turn it's basically same as 40k. Look at army lists, know who wins. At least 40k has 50-50 who goes first which gives at least some chance sometimes for other side. With AOS that doesnt' even apply so you would know who goes first by checking army lists.

When nobody has super magic/shooting that breaks the game anyway double turn isn't issue if you aren't total noob who sucks in game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/27 09:32:34


2021 painted/bought: 506/499 
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





Why would one "deal with it" when there's a 66% chance of "dealing with it" putting you in a disadvantageous position?
Odds are in the player who may get double-turned's favor that ignoring the chance of the double-turn will be their winning move.
Then there's also the possibility that they set up super defensively, un-crackably so, and the opponent wins priority and says "sure, you go".
Now all your defensive posturing was a literal waste! What do you do, continue the defensive? You may get double turned again! Or do you follow the odds and reach out and touch someone? Oh wow, you'd have been way better off if you just did that last turn, though.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





You houserule it out is what you do haha.


Parabellum Conquest Vanguard and champion of all things Conquest: The Last Argument of Kings

www.underspire.net for all things Conquest 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 auticus wrote:
You houserule it out is what you do haha.

but... But that's not tournament standard and teaching people to play the game wrong

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/27 22:42:16


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





I'm actually getting ready to move out west and there are some guys that do a lot of 9th age and even 8.5.

I felt excitement for the first time in a very long time.

Parabellum Conquest Vanguard and champion of all things Conquest: The Last Argument of Kings

www.underspire.net for all things Conquest 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

So are we predicting that the big AOS announcement is 3rd edition?
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

 Asherian Command wrote:
So are we predicting that the big AOS announcement is 3rd edition?


Depends on how many more Broken Realms books there are left, I’d say. I’m not sure they’d want to kill Broken Realms hype before that series is finished.

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

I mean I don't know if there even will be one after Kraganos have they even hinted at that?
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 Asherian Command wrote:
I mean I don't know if there even will be one after Kraganos have they even hinted at that?
No, people are guessing there's more since if Kragnos was the last there would be factions untouched by the update.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






Usually if I am going first, I'll give my opponent the double turn T2 by choice and then not have to worry about it afterwards.

I play a lot of AoS, I am not bothered by the double turn, and the only game I can think of where I lost in a tournament because my opponent got it, is one where I positioned my army poorly and would have been in a hard spot anyway.

I do like the endless spell interaction with the turn, I was pretty sad when they limited how many spells you could take, as I had heaps of fun taking 5-7 endless spells in my list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 12:36:16


Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




drbored wrote:

Here's my prediction.


There will be changes. That's my prediction.

TBH it will change the game and I really enjoy the subsequent 6-8 months of relearning and rediscovering the game and armies. Some things will get better, some will get worse, GW will miss some pretty obvious issues in outlier armies like BoC or Wanderers that will get neglected for the entire edition.

Just like ever month or so the game will change and people will talk about it.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

popisdead wrote:
GW will miss some pretty obvious issues in outlier armies like BoC


What do you think GWs missed BoC wise?
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

ccs wrote:
popisdead wrote:
GW will miss some pretty obvious issues in outlier armies like BoC


What do you think GWs missed BoC wise?


That it existed


Overall I've heard some strange rumors the past few weeks.

I won't post them cause they don't seem at all trustyworthy as they come from 4chan and seem to be a meme.

Something I've heard people talk about is:

A New Stormcast chamber

Destruction as a starter with Stormcasts

New faction other than Soulblight



Thats all I can really predict?
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Specumalation!

Also kind of rumour that’s not a rumour but might support a rumour.

The next Collector’s coin has been announced. Despite the monthly model being a Grave Guard, the coin isn’t Undead or Vampire themed....but Ghal Maraz. And apparently, it’s only available until the end of May.

All the other collector coins have related to a major release (DoK, Deathguard, Lumineth, Uriel Ventriss/BL Weekend, Slaanesh and Be’lakor, not necessarily in that exact order), so Ghal Maraz seems an oddity.

Possibly originally designed for 3rd Ed launch, and some kind of loose evidence it has indeed been delayed due to the various oddities going on?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

We know Kragnos has the two Witch Hunters coming.

Also, the BL coin doesn't count towards the releases apparently.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Well, bums.

Oh well. Still getting my sixth on Saturday regardless.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Asherian Command wrote:
ccs wrote:
popisdead wrote:
GW will miss some pretty obvious issues in outlier armies like BoC


What do you think GWs missed BoC wise?


That it existed



This is pretty much it. I feel since 2004 BoC have only existed to sell cool models and lore-wise be fodder for Chaos armies advancing and needing to die in droves so when the good guys die it isn't lop sided.

Random examples: 7th ed: lacked a FAQ for Herds to rank up 5-wide for the smallish +2CR
8th ed: fired Andy Hoare for leaking rules and playtest while writing and Phil Kelly was told to "Fix" the army
End Times: Gave them Marks!, you could actually field a Khorne Bray Shaman, then ended the world 8 months later so you didn't get much time playing with the army you bought, built and were painting...
AoS 2: seriously,.. they removed things that were good (Doombull Cmd Ability, Gors stacking Attacks), and left crap (Beastlord cmd ability)... I should say though they have the best terrain piece in the game... so,.. there is that.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Chaos Terminator






Surfing the Tervigon Wave...on a baby.

popisdead wrote:
8th ed: fired Andy Hoare for leaking rules and playtest while writing and Phil Kelly was told to "Fix" the army


Don't you love it when a book has someone else brought in to fix it? It's happened plenty of times in 40k before - see also Cruddace's 5th ed Tyranids and Gav Thorpe's 4th ed CSM Codex - both noted for being remarkably bland mono-build armies which stripped away all the flexibility and utility of their predecessors (not everyone was running Siren Daemon Princes y'know or Iron Warriors).

Looking at them, BoC just...don't pop out. There's no big fancy gimmick they can pull off particularly well. Skaven have all sorts of tricks and gimmicks and can be themed rather well, the individual God books, StD and even the redone Legion of the First Prince have neat little tricks and Beasts seem...so vanilla.

Everything they do someone else does far better.

Numbers of infantry? Skaven or Gloomspite.
Monsters? Seraphon or Ogors.

Want to do combat heavy? Khorne, Seraphon and Orruks all exist. Want to play sneaky ambushes? Sylvaneth exist and even LoN have the gravesite rules...

There really isn't anything beyond their aesthetic.


Now only a CSM player. 
   
Made in ca
Excited Doom Diver






Beasts of chaos have great theme and models, just that the warscrolls are weak.

The Brayherd stuff is amazingly fast, but doesn't hit well, Dragon Ogres are cool, but only do 1dmg on their attacks. The Warheard stuff hits hard, but is expensive and fragile.

They are sort of designed to be a fast glass hammer sort of army, but just lacks the hammer. Most of the monsters are pretty lack-luster too. They just need an army-wide buff to really get things going.

I do like them as an army though, they have a cool summoning mechanic and their terrain has a very useful debuff. The subfactions have very interesting rules.

Space Wolves 4k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

AOS 3rd Edition confirmed on GW stream. New Stormcasts confirmed as well as a new race. Double turn staying around.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/08 18:33:07


All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I was a bit worried before, definitely concerned now. They talk about 'pulling the rules apart' and 'adding a bunch of new stuff' and I am just thinking that AoS simply doesn't need that. The 2nd edition rules are fun and work well with only a few rough spots. They need a few patches, not a complete rehash. Here's hoping it's more hype rhetoric than changes-for-the-sake-of-changes.

Sounds like they want to keep the double and so are giving additional bonuses to the person going second to nerf it. I am down for that in theory, we'll have to see how it works out in practice. The question remains if they put something in the way of shooting armies just obliterating the enemy with a double.

The 'core battalions' concept from the leak (where was that originally posted anyways?) looks to be confirmed.
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





Depending on how 3.0 works out this double turn stuff, might just stick to 2.0 with double turns houseruled out.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Savage Minotaur




Baltimore, Maryland

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The 'core battalions' concept from the leak (where was that originally posted anyways?) looks to be confirmed.


This is where I first heard of it, after seeing it referenced on Twitter( battalions at 8min mark or thereabouts):


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 18:59:44


"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

Literally primaris stormcast.

They look cool af though. I'm stoked. I had sold my AOS stuff some time ago as there wasn't interest. Went to my LGS today which is starting to get it going, and they are doing a slow grow June 8th. With Kragnos and the rumored 3.0 destruction maybe hobgoblins (swamp goblins?) I decided to go all in on destruction and start Ironjawz for now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 20:01:25


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

I would doubt that it will be hobgoblins unless they're a part of the Chaos Dwarf battletome...


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Yeah, as far as I know, hobgoblins have never been their own standalone army. Makes more sense to do Grotbag Scuttlers.

The biggest change I'm hoping they add to AoS 3.0 is some way of handling the spike in shooting armies right now, they simply have no real counterplay besides hiding behind terrain especially with the double turn in effect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/08 20:39:55


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Wayniac wrote:
Literally primaris stormcast.
As seems to be the trend this past year AoS is doing what I wish 40k that--the new Stormcast are an advancement in equipment with armour that has new capabilities while the eternals themselves are the same. Imagine if Primaris had been 'only' a new mark of armour & gear instead of super-extra-marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, as far as I know, hobgoblins have never been their own standalone army. Makes more sense to do Grotbag Scuttlers.

The biggest change I'm hoping they add to AoS 3.0 is some way of handling the spike in shooting armies right now, they simply have no real counterplay besides hiding behind terrain especially with the double turn in effect.
Terrain with LoS blocking that flyers ignore, no less...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/08 21:16:43


 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
Literally primaris stormcast.
As seems to be the trend this past year AoS is doing what I wish 40k that--the new Stormcast are an advancement in equipment with armour that has new capabilities while the eternals themselves are the same. Imagine if Primaris had been 'only' a new mark of armour & gear instead of super-extra-marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, as far as I know, hobgoblins have never been their own standalone army. Makes more sense to do Grotbag Scuttlers.

The biggest change I'm hoping they add to AoS 3.0 is some way of handling the spike in shooting armies right now, they simply have no real counterplay besides hiding behind terrain especially with the double turn in effect.
Terrain with LoS blocking that flyers ignore, no less...


Yeaaaah, I have no idea what they were thinking when they released the Lumineth 2.0 book. I guess they were fans of the Last Airbender?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Lets face it "pull the rules apart and start again" is basically what GW does with every rules release. It's why they never really manage to polish their rules perfectly because they are always tinkering with them.

That said the new Slaanesh and Daughters of Khaine battletomes haven't really presented many new things within them save that full unit discounts are gone (which honestly is a good thing as it frees up army building to consider more minimum or middle weight units not just always going for full squads for the discount).

Then again they also have battalions which sound like they are being done away with (or battletome ones moved to the open play only region).


I'm sad that they are so keen to make the doubleturn part of the game, then again perhaps if they make it part of the game this time around it might become more fun. Right now in 2.0 its not really part of the game as such, its just there as a thing that can happen and almost always hands whoever gets it a win (or makes it very hard to lose).

If it becomes part of the game and if opponents might have something to do (besides react roll) then it might be more fun.

   
 
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