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Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






Anyone care to make and predictions on 3.0 based on what we can see in the new Soulblight book? One thing's becoming clear, hordes are going the way of the dodo.

Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in us
Noble Knight of the Realm






 lare2 wrote:
Anyone care to make and predictions on 3.0 based on what we can see in the new Soulblight book? One thing's becoming clear, hordes are going the way of the dodo.


Im assuming all my old skeletons (and grave guard) and my zombies are pretty much out the window. Christ, this doesn't look good for me.

"Don't Feed the Troll" 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






 BlackoCatto wrote:
 lare2 wrote:
Anyone care to make and predictions on 3.0 based on what we can see in the new Soulblight book? One thing's becoming clear, hordes are going the way of the dodo.


Im assuming all my old skeletons (and grave guard) and my zombies are pretty much out the window. Christ, this doesn't look good for me.


Skellies are max 30, as are GG. Zombies are max 40. Zero point discounts for taking max. No incremental benefits the more you take as well.

Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Before they literally cost less points for units that were already more points efficient so it feels a little like karmic justice. And still worthwhile thanks to the army's ability to return whole units.
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






Tbh, I'm a fan if they do cut back on hordes... if only so that my back hurts less when playing.

Skellies in 20s look like decent objective holders. GG and zombies are pretty solid going forward.

Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in us
Noble Knight of the Realm






 lare2 wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
 lare2 wrote:
Anyone care to make and predictions on 3.0 based on what we can see in the new Soulblight book? One thing's becoming clear, hordes are going the way of the dodo.


Im assuming all my old skeletons (and grave guard) and my zombies are pretty much out the window. Christ, this doesn't look good for me.


Skellies are max 30, as are GG. Zombies are max 40. Zero point discounts for taking max. No incremental benefits the more you take as well.


Man that sucks.

"Don't Feed the Troll" 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Heh, not getting to exploit the rules to get hyper efficient units DOES suck doesn't it...
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





The removal is horde discounts is absolutely the correct thing to do. Hordes have an inherent advantage due to the core mechanic of capturing objectives. The horde discount is one of the most blatant money grab rules I've ever seen from gw. I would also be happy to see the average army size shrink back to what it was in 1st edition.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Horde discount wasn't really a money grab; it was more a case that it pushed you toward using full units and not using split up units. So you'd use 30 warriors in a block every time instead of 10, 10, 10 or 10, 20 etc... Same number of models, just different unit compositions.

It meant hordes weren't just beneficial because of numbers, but because of price as well which limited your army building options. Now that the discount is gone it means that we can now use different numbers of units in squads without punishment.

This opens up a lot more tactical options for armies being more free to take multiple minimum unit squads and such.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 10:50:08


   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Good. Hordes make the game objectively worse to play, no one likes bullet sponges, and unlike video games you have to move the bullet sponges by hand...
I am pleasantly surprised by the Soulblight book, I hope it heralds what things will be like in 3rd ed. Hordes being less of a thing, summoning toned down (but not as useless as 1st ed), and named characters all count as generals in addition to your normal general in their appropriate bloodline, so you don't miss out on general traits/artifacts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 11:17:25


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I don't think full units make the game worse nor better. I think it varies so much army to army that its good that discounts are no longer punishing some forces and tactical options.

Eg Skaven you'd expect to still be taking big units of clan rats because of their stats; however Stormcast or Ossiarchs with much more elite style troops; now have far more options to split up full units so that they can use their forces in a different way.

It also opens up more options for sacrificial and distraction units. Eg having a few min-unit forces so that you can send them in small waves against a powerful character. Meaning that the character keeps getting stuck in combat with those units, but can't wipe out the whole lot in one or two turns because its all separate targets and separate fights each time.



I'd also argue that the game would benefit from a more spongy approach to battle. One weakness of a GW system is that they often like big damage dealers so that you wipe off units from the table with a huge round of combat (doubly so iwth the doubleturn in AoS). This removes some of the push and shove struggle of a proper battle and can make things very alpha heavy. Having units that act more as a sponge is a good thing because now the battle lasts more than that one alphastrike turn

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




A unit of 5 dudes with 20 wounds each is easier to field (not everyone has 8x4 table at home) and provides the same amount of wounds as a blob of 100 models. There is nothing about big blobs of 1W models that is fun, satisfying or not just a waste of your limited time on earth. They take forever to move, forever to pile in and forever to resolve. I've conceded games before when I had to wait for my enemy to move his 80 models in the 3rd turn of the game,2hrs in...
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






Cronch wrote:
A unit of 5 dudes with 20 wounds each is easier to field (not everyone has 8x4 table at home) and provides the same amount of wounds as a blob of 100 models. There is nothing about big blobs of 1W models that is fun, satisfying or not just a waste of your limited time on earth. They take forever to move, forever to pile in and forever to resolve. I've conceded games before when I had to wait for my enemy to move his 80 models in the 3rd turn of the game,2hrs in...


Don't forget they take forever to paint as well. I've played a variation of death horde since AoS 1.0. 3.0 for me is all about elite.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 15:27:03


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NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





Cronch wrote:
Good. Hordes make the game objectively worse to play, no one likes bullet sponges, and unlike video games you have to move the bullet sponges by hand...
I am pleasantly surprised by the Soulblight book, I hope it heralds what things will be like in 3rd ed. Hordes being less of a thing, summoning toned down (but not as useless as 1st ed), and named characters all count as generals in addition to your normal general in their appropriate bloodline, so you don't miss out on general traits/artifacts.


Not objectively. Subjectively. You don't like it? Tough. You aren't ultimate decider what's fun and what's not. Don't like that? Tough.

2021 painted/bought: 506/499 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yes, but also you're wrong on all accounts.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






He is objectively correct in pointing out you made a subjective argument.

Anyways, at the time horde discounts were introduced the game had a heavy slant towards elite units being stronger and it was a clear move to counteract that. They have gotten more refined in its application since but have been phasing it out for several battletomes now.
   
Made in be
Raging Rat Ogre






What my predictions are (also after seeing the soulblight book):

1)CP generation might be tied to your heros (see RDP with OBR) and possibly your general... With tons of multi generals in SGL, so that might play into that new mechanic.

2) generic Command Abilities getting a rework (charge reactions, defensive boosts etc), but insane bravery being removed... Just a gut feeling as I'm sure the dev team isn't happy that battleshock is so irrelevant now.

3) horde bonus gone. Buffs based on unit size gone.

4) more armies getting named characters as generals in their "correct subfactions"... Like I said, with possible CP bonus.

5) generic battalions also giving you extra CP per turn.

6) General points increase for everything --> see 40k. This massively speeds up the game because all their cool rules for special dice triggers, seperate dice pools etc REALLY slowed down tht game.

7) Seraphon and LRL hopefully taking a nerf bat straight to the teeth!

The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 lare2 wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
 lare2 wrote:
Anyone care to make and predictions on 3.0 based on what we can see in the new Soulblight book? One thing's becoming clear, hordes are going the way of the dodo.


Im assuming all my old skeletons (and grave guard) and my zombies are pretty much out the window. Christ, this doesn't look good for me.


Skellies are max 30, as are GG. Zombies are max 40. Zero point discounts for taking max. No incremental benefits the more you take as well.


Counteracted by their new mortal wound output and heavy duty buffing potential still leaving them pretty much the most efficient options in the book.

What else are you gonna take? Terrorgheist? Don't make me laugh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Elmir wrote:
What my predictions are (also after seeing the soulblight book):

1)CP generation might be tied to your heros (see RDP with OBR) and possibly your general... With tons of multi generals in SGL, so that might play into that new mechanic.

2) generic Command Abilities getting a rework (charge reactions, defensive boosts etc), but insane bravery being removed... Just a gut feeling as I'm sure the dev team isn't happy that battleshock is so irrelevant now.

3) horde bonus gone. Buffs based on unit size gone.

4) more armies getting named characters as generals in their "correct subfactions"... Like I said, with possible CP bonus.

5) generic battalions also giving you extra CP per turn.

6) General points increase for everything --> see 40k. This massively speeds up the game because all their cool rules for special dice triggers, seperate dice pools etc REALLY slowed down tht game.

7) Seraphon and LRL hopefully taking a nerf bat straight to the teeth!


I hope they give up on the whole 'battleshock isn't important enough!' thing. Battleshock as a mechanic only works as something you expend resources to avoid facing. If you actually routinely lose models to it it's pretty fething terrible.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/15 17:32:03


2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Noble Knight of the Realm






LRL probs do need a nerf. Sooo many MW.

Though I'm not happy hordes are gone as I always like playing Undead with big Hordes of models.... now, looks like Ill have to say goodbye to them and not play them which for me sucks.

"Don't Feed the Troll" 
   
Made in us
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Are hordes gone or do they just not get discounts?
Or is even that a Soulblight Gravelords thing because every horde is potentially infinite models (start at 40, then continuously resurrect at 20)?
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
He is objectively correct in pointing out you made a subjective argument.

Anyways, at the time horde discounts were introduced the game had a heavy slant towards elite units being stronger and it was a clear move to counteract that. They have gotten more refined in its application since but have been phasing it out for several battletomes now.

The second there were horde discounts for Elves or Stormcast, the arguments in favor of it as a mechanic were dead.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Hordes are by no means gone, they are simply different to what they were before. With no discount for a full unit you are not pressured into taking full units like you were before.


This means hordes aren't going away, but it means that options outside of putting all your models into fewer units, is now an option. For forces like Skaven it might not make a huge difference as thye will still want nice big unit blocks; for armies like Ossiarchs it might make a huge difference as now they can take multiple smaller units for the same cost as one big unit.


   
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NE Ohio, USA

 Overread wrote:
This means hordes aren't going away, but it means that options outside of putting all your models into fewer units, is now an option.


It was always an option. And one each player should've been evaluating based upon what they intended to be doing with the unit.
   
Made in us
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Yes, but the option was generally minimum size or maximum.

That said, there is no nuance on the internet so this is either nothing or hordes are dead; pick one
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

ccs wrote:
 Overread wrote:
This means hordes aren't going away, but it means that options outside of putting all your models into fewer units, is now an option.


It was always an option. And one each player should've been evaluating based upon what they intended to be doing with the unit.


The thing was if you took two units of 20 you paid more in points than one unit of 40. So you were generally either going for minimum units for the battleline requirements for the least cost because then you had to have at least X number for the value of the game. Or you were aiming for full units as much as you could because you paid less in points which means you have more to spend on other things.

Removing the point saving feature means that you can take two units of 20 or one unit of 40 and they cost the same. Thus you can make your choice based on the units stats, your situation and the play style you are going for. Basically it removes a cost choice from the equation and makes it more of a tactical choice.

   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





I think its still a false choice that makes itself for you.

Given 1 unit of 40 or 2 units of 20, if there are no mechanical benefits to having 40 models in a unit, it is almost always going to be better to have the ability to split the unit into two so that it can operate independently.

Parabellum Conquest Vanguard and champion of all things Conquest: The Last Argument of Kings

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Overread wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Overread wrote:
This means hordes aren't going away, but it means that options outside of putting all your models into fewer units, is now an option.


It was always an option. And one each player should've been evaluating based upon what they intended to be doing with the unit.


The thing was if you took two units of 20 you paid more in points than one unit of 40. So you were generally either going for minimum units for the battleline requirements for the least cost because then you had to have at least X number for the value of the game. Or you were aiming for full units as much as you could because you paid less in points which means you have more to spend on other things.


If I'm taking two units of 20 I'm doing so because I have a reason/plan. It doesn't likely involve BL requirements and saving pts is not a consideration. It's a calculation of survivability & utility. And sometimes there's reasons beyond what can be expressed by the games math. Same goes for when I opt for a full maxed out unit. There's a reason. That I save some pts is merely a perk/oddity of AoS, it's never been a deciding factor for me.

 Overread wrote:
Removing the point saving feature means that you can take two units of 20 or one unit of 40 and they cost the same. Thus you can make your choice based on the units stats, your situation and the play style you are going for. Basically it removes a cost choice from the equation and makes it more of a tactical choice.


Quit spewing BS at me.
No matter how the pts are distributed you're always making a same tactical choices: How many units & why, how large & why. Do I spend the points on x or on y? What does this unit do for me?

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 auticus wrote:
I think its still a false choice that makes itself for you.

Given 1 unit of 40 or 2 units of 20, if there are no mechanical benefits to having 40 models in a unit, it is almost always going to be better to have the ability to split the unit into two so that it can operate independently.
Unless the core command abilities change there will always be mechanical benefits to having one big unit over two smaller ones, regardless of army or game size. To say nothing of the many, many, buffs and incentives littered across the battletomes to do so. It is more of a choice now, because a mid-size unit is viable where before it was not. Even inherently with alternating units in combat there is a mechanical advantage for melee units to be one big blob as it can go all at once.

I am actually surprised you would be critical of this point anyway as a proponent of alt activation, because that very much favors min-and-max size units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:
 Overread wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Overread wrote:
This means hordes aren't going away, but it means that options outside of putting all your models into fewer units, is now an option.


It was always an option. And one each player should've been evaluating based upon what they intended to be doing with the unit.


The thing was if you took two units of 20 you paid more in points than one unit of 40. So you were generally either going for minimum units for the battleline requirements for the least cost because then you had to have at least X number for the value of the game. Or you were aiming for full units as much as you could because you paid less in points which means you have more to spend on other things.


If I'm taking two units of 20 I'm doing so because I have a reason/plan. It doesn't likely involve BL requirements and saving pts is not a consideration. It's a calculation of survivability & utility. And sometimes there's reasons beyond what can be expressed by the games math. Same goes for when I opt for a full maxed out unit. There's a reason. That I save some pts is merely a perk/oddity of AoS, it's never been a deciding factor for me.
What armies do you play? There are a number where the horde discount was never particularly relevant anyways.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 21:51:27


 
   
Made in es
Fresh-Faced New User





 auticus wrote:
I think its still a false choice that makes itself for you.

Given 1 unit of 40 or 2 units of 20, if there are no mechanical benefits to having 40 models in a unit, it is almost always going to be better to have the ability to split the unit into two so that it can operate independently.


But there are mechanical advantages for both min and max. If you run a blob of 40 you can attack with 40 models first, and there won't be much enemies to respond. If you attack with two units of 20 you only activate 20 models first, then the enemy goes and remove some of your not-activated 20, and then you get to go with your weakened remaining unit. On the other hand, while split in two units you can go to two places at the same time, and you can use them more effectively as a screen because wounds don't spill from one unit to the other if it is overkilled, neither do battleshock loses.

So mostly big units are better for the offense and small units for the defense. There are exceptions, like base sizes and range of attack profiles making small units a good choice in the offense, or using some abilities to buff the defense of a big unit as a whole. I clarify this because i don't want to start talking about certain choices being meaningless in certain warscrolls because the good choice is too obvious. Im simply saying that the mechanical nuances to make the choice matter exist within the system.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

ccs wrote:


 Overread wrote:
Removing the point saving feature means that you can take two units of 20 or one unit of 40 and they cost the same. Thus you can make your choice based on the units stats, your situation and the play style you are going for. Basically it removes a cost choice from the equation and makes it more of a tactical choice.


Quit spewing BS at me.
No matter how the pts are distributed you're always making a same tactical choices: How many units & why, how large & why. Do I spend the points on x or on y? What does this unit do for me?



I never said the tactical choices weren't present when choosing what to put in your army.

However I did say that they'd removed the point discount being part of the choice. If you're taking two or three troop units at full capacity that's a nice chunk of saved points that might pay for a leader or a support unit or something else. If that discount is no longer there then that choice is no longer there; therefor how big your units are is resting solely on the other factors.

   
 
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