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2023/07/26 05:53:29
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Who here actually owned a Stalker and/or a Hunter?
I said above that I've never actually seen that kit in person (outside of sitting in a box on a shelf at a GW store), and others have said that as well. Anyone own one? Anyone ever used one?
*raises hand* They were fun for a while when tau and Eldar were running rampant. Also the kit is nice in that you can build both weapons fully minus the radar dish and either swap them or plonk the second on a spare rhino hull.
2023/07/26 06:08:49
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
gorgon wrote: It really isn't complicated. WHFB just wasn't very accessible or interesting to younger people for a number of reasons. People can pretend now like that wasn't true, but everyone talked about it openly at the time -- that WHFB catered to a more veteran audience. GW is a public company with growth targets that they need to hit, and a game that isn't roping in the new blood isn't going to help them do that.
Considering how many of the models in AoS are Old World models I don't think it was the models.
Old World failed on multiple fronts and, like many games fails, there was no one major "that did it" thing. IT was a combination of many aspects over many years.
Lord of the Rings stealing the limelight for a long while; lack of effective modern marketing methods (gw was openly at war with the internet in those days, it was doing zero marketing online beyond the webstore); a massive up-front cost to get into the game at functional point value let alone the popular 2K; the lack of effective intro point values and smaller scale games that "worked"; the lack of attention/investment for a considerable period of time (as evident by how popular End Times became and how sales rose when GW focused on it).
I think lore is honestly secondary when I consider how few people read BL books compared to play the game. Lore is fun stuff around the game for many, but the models, the pricing, the company attention and all are what brings people in. GW at the time was just not pushing Old World for a long time and when the market dwindled those that were left had 2K armies and bigger; they were playing big games and there just wasn't much to bridge that gap. So the fewer people getting into it had a greatre chance of burning out before getting to the fun part of the gameplay.
Almost all the major failing points are what GW does today - markets online; has multiple cheaper game entry options; releases new and shiny models; pays attention to the game in marketing; etc...
Honestly the only thing that's going to be a big question mark is how GW is going to market Old World and AoS side by side at the same time.
The accessibility issue wasn't just the models as such, it was the volume of them required. The change in whichever edition it was that pushed min frontage up from 4 to 5, combined with boxes shrinking from 16 to 10, meant that it was incredibly cost prohibitive to get into compared to 40k at the time. Never mind units comprised entirely of metal minis that were sometimes eye wateringly expensive.
2023/07/26 06:17:16
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
well, LotR by the time it was released hat 3 major advantages over any other GW game
the setting was well known and a more positive fantasy than warhammer and 40k it was the best rules set GW had during that time
it was cheap, not just because it was a skirmish game with less models needed but also the price per model was lower than for the other GW games of that time
yet it was a very different audience and not the usual GW customer, which were there because they liked the game and the setting
this was also a reason why the LotR playerbase stopped existing over night with the now usual price increase (the famous double the price and half the box content). As they did not only stopped buying the models but also stopped playing the game because of that
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/26 06:19:31
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2023/07/26 07:13:04
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Who here actually owned a Stalker and/or a Hunter?
I said above that I've never actually seen that kit in person (outside of sitting in a box on a shelf at a GW store), and others have said that as well. Anyone own one? Anyone ever used one?
I played against a stalker in a local tournament once, shortly after it was released... There was a time there where you pretty much had to include some form of anti air in a tournie list on the (reasonable) chance that your opponent would show up with aircraft, as it was the only way to deal with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tauist wrote: I wasnt involved with GW products when AoS launched, but was just thinking, when did LoTR miniatures game get released by GW?
Perhaps it was LoTR that killed Warhammer, and AoS was just a reboot in response to LoTR? GW couldn't just have Tolkiens' factions in another fantasy game (with uglier minis with worse proportions to boot), hence they came up with AoS and its factions, which were not direct clones from LoTR?
LotR mostly sold to a very different audience to GW's other games... which was the reason that many WHFB and 40K players thought for a long time that LotR wasn't actually doing well, as they never saw anyone playing it. But it served as a massive cash injection to GW as a whole. WHFB's demise was from other causes.
During a good number of years we just couldn't put LoTR stuff on the shelves fast enough, because people was buying it in droves.
...and then GW decided to double the price and halve the amount of sprues in boxes.
2023/07/27 14:20:06
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Overread wrote: the lack of attention/investment for a considerable period of time (as evident by how popular End Times became and how sales rose when GW focused on it).
Citation needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theres nothing I have ever found that indicates that sales of WHFB verifiably increased through The End Times release cycle. This is a popular internet myth.The only hard data we presently have access to (see my previous post) would indicate that The End Times did nothing for GW's top or bottom line. Also, I recall I did another post at some point in the past looking at icv2 top 5 non-collectible games data - WHFB actually dropped off the list through the quarters that The End Times was released IIRC which indicates that sales were not there.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/07/27 16:42:34
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Overread wrote: the lack of attention/investment for a considerable period of time (as evident by how popular End Times became and how sales rose when GW focused on it).
Citation needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theres nothing I have ever found that indicates that sales of WHFB verifiably increased through The End Times release cycle. This is a popular internet myth.The only hard data we presently have access to (see my previous post) would indicate that The End Times did nothing for GW's top or bottom line. Also, I recall I did another post at some point in the past looking at icv2 top 5 non-collectible games data - WHFB actually dropped off the list through the quarters that The End Times was released IIRC which indicates that sales were not there.
I remember the kits getting more expensive during end times.
GW's finances in those times were on a slow downwards trend that started to move worryingly towards 'outright tanking' when 7th was at its Zenith and AoS was still clacking 100 dollar cavalry models together and making pew-pew noises.
Once AoS got the GHB (which was a magical time to be a hobbyist, btw) and 40k got 8th is when they started the ascent they've been on for the past 6ish years now.
2023/07/27 17:59:45
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
chaos0xomega wrote: Citation needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theres nothing I have ever found that indicates that sales of WHFB verifiably increased through The End Times release cycle. This is a popular internet myth.
at least I know that the local stores sold all their Warhammer Army Boxes no one touched in years during EndTimes in addition to the new models
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2023/07/27 18:30:13
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Overread wrote: the lack of attention/investment for a considerable period of time (as evident by how popular End Times became and how sales rose when GW focused on it).
Citation needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theres nothing I have ever found that indicates that sales of WHFB verifiably increased through The End Times release cycle. This is a popular internet myth.The only hard data we presently have access to (see my previous post) would indicate that The End Times did nothing for GW's top or bottom line. Also, I recall I did another post at some point in the past looking at icv2 top 5 non-collectible games data - WHFB actually dropped off the list through the quarters that The End Times was released IIRC which indicates that sales were not there.
I remember End Times stuff sold out very quickly on the webstore, which was something that never happened back then even for 40k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/27 18:30:27
2023/07/27 18:34:26
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Overread wrote: the lack of attention/investment for a considerable period of time (as evident by how popular End Times became and how sales rose when GW focused on it).
Citation needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theres nothing I have ever found that indicates that sales of WHFB verifiably increased through The End Times release cycle. This is a popular internet myth.The only hard data we presently have access to (see my previous post) would indicate that The End Times did nothing for GW's top or bottom line. Also, I recall I did another post at some point in the past looking at icv2 top 5 non-collectible games data - WHFB actually dropped off the list through the quarters that The End Times was released IIRC which indicates that sales were not there.
I remember End Times stuff sold out very quickly on the webstore, which was something that never happened back then even for 40k.
Yeah, even if End Times didn't get new people into the hobby (which considering how short it was wouldn't be a surprise) there was a LOT of talk and chatter going on online and with sales. This was about when GW was starting to roll out those new big greater demon models and such as well. It was most certainly building hype and attention with a good chunk of new models. Heck it was about when Skaven got a bunch of new toys to play with and more.
And then it didn't so much fizzle as boom. If I recall right GW ended it and left several months of pure silence before AoS began.
I've deleted a longer post, but let's hope that the ridiculously good looking upscaled Terminators will do so well that GW will upscale Scouts and Trikes and regular jump Assault Marines at some point in the future.
Until then we will have 3 man units of jump pack Assaultinators I guess.
(I like Primaris to convert with regular Marine weapons and bits, but, err, "undiluted" most of their stuff is so, so over the top, but not in the cool Blood Angels Assault Terminators way)
Looking for a Skaven Doomwheel banner to repair my Nurgle knights.
2023/07/27 19:16:54
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
the only sad thing is that it was not done at the beginning of 10th, but just right after people bought the Cards and thought it is save to buy any of those units from the Index
could have moved them to legends right away instead of doing it month late
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2023/07/27 19:48:10
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
kodos wrote: the only sad thing is that it was not done at the beginning of 10th, but just right after people bought the Cards and thought it is save to buy any of those units from the Index
could have moved them to legends right away instead of doing it month late
Of course we've got Gencon so it could be this is a strange situation where GW figured Marines would win and we'd have seen previews of most of those models returning with new forms as part of the new release. So when Tyranids won no one paused the Marine withdrawl until after they'd had a chunky preview.
It is very odd, but GW works like this and it could even be that marketing departments and such didn't even know that those models were going to be pulled when they were and such.
Overread wrote: Of course we've got Gencon so it could be this is a strange situation where GW figured Marines would win and we'd have seen previews of most of those models returning with new forms as part of the new release. So when Tyranids won no one paused the Marine withdrawl until after they'd had a chunky preview.
It is very odd, but GW works like this and it could even be that marketing departments and such didn't even know that those models were going to be pulled when they were and such.
I don't think GW thought SM would win, in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they rigged it in favour of the Tyranids. People thought they would rig it the other way, but to me that would have been predicated on the SM release being first. GW stated they weren't moving the release dates, just revealing the winner first, and I doubt GW would want to have the second release revealed first, it would put things out of whack. They'd have to reveal second release first, then the first release, followed by a gap in reveals.
2023/07/27 21:03:58
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
I've deleted a longer post, but let's hope that the ridiculously good looking upscaled Terminators will do so well that GW will upscale Scouts and Trikes and regular jump Assault Marines at some point in the future.
Until then we will have 3 man units of jump pack Assaultinators I guess.
(I like Primaris to convert with regular Marine weapons and bits, but, err, "undiluted" most of their stuff is so, so over the top, but not in the cool Blood Angels Assault Terminators way)
Don't forget there is a Tyranid sized release coming for them that is just being saved for closer to the codex as they lost the Oghram campaign.
I've deleted a longer post, but let's hope that the ridiculously good looking upscaled Terminators will do so well that GW will upscale Scouts and Trikes and regular jump Assault Marines at some point in the future.
Until then we will have 3 man units of jump pack Assaultinators I guess.
(I like Primaris to convert with regular Marine weapons and bits, but, err, "undiluted" most of their stuff is so, so over the top, but not in the cool Blood Angels Assault Terminators way)
Don't forget there is a Tyranid sized release coming for them that is just being saved for closer to the codex as they lost the Oghram campaign.
Do we really need one though? We already have the Impulsor.
Also, my bet is they do the same thing with Vanguard Vets as they did with Sternguard, they will come out and be officially both first born and primaris, but with predominantly Mk X armour with the occasional throwback bit. Assault marines will just disappear, and noting the FoCs are gone they aren't really needed unless you wanted to take over three squads. They can mitigate that by having some detachment that makes Vanguard Vets battle line, and other jump pack heavy armies will have other data sheets anyway (Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, etc).
2023/07/27 21:27:11
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Do we really need one though? We already have the Impulsor.
Also, my bet is they do the same thing with Vanguard Vets as they did with Sternguard, they will come out and be officially both first born and primaris, but with predominantly Mk X armour with the occasional throwback bit. Assault marines will just disappear, and noting the FoCs are gone they aren't really needed unless you wanted to take over three squads. They can mitigate that by having some detachment that makes Vanguard Vets battle line, and other jump pack heavy armies will have other data sheets anyway (Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, etc).
I'm betting it'll be Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs. 50/50 as to whether they have options for anyone but the sergeant.
She/Her
"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln
Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.
I wouldn't be surprised to see all of the various Primaris kits eventually updated to add in more of the options from their First Born counterparts. No idea why that wasn't the thing from the start, although could be as simple as them wanting to make sure they sold through all of the First Born still sitting in the warehouse before offering 1:1 Primaris replacements.
2023/07/28 00:30:09
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
insaniak wrote: I wouldn't be surprised to see all of the various Primaris kits eventually updated to add in more of the options from their First Born counterparts. No idea why that wasn't the thing from the start, although could be as simple as them wanting to make sure they sold through all of the First Born still sitting in the warehouse before offering 1:1 Primaris replacements.
It's taken six years to finish that range refresh, pretty sure they have been using those moulds in the mean time to make first born models rather than using warehouse stock.
I like the idea of the slow switch to truescale (as you could have got away with just Tactical/Assault/Devastator to start with), but once you're concerned what it means to sales of characters/tanks/xenos or other projects that are now looking to be whole quarters or years off rather than part of a self contained launch and there's a drive to really shake up the setting, not hard to see how it ended up how it did.
Once you ask the question: "2017, just space marines?" and pick no then we're looking at what we got.
2023/07/28 00:43:02
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
It's taken six years to finish that range refresh, pretty sure they have been using those moulds in the mean time to make first born models rather than using warehouse stock.
Oh, they've almost certainly been making more of the faster selling kits in the interim. I suspect that some of the slower moving kits have a fairly long time on the shelf, though, as it would potentially be more profitable to produce a single large batch of them for their projected lifespan than to have to stop the machines and switch moulds to produce additional batches of slower sellers. Either way, though, with the huge number of kits that needed to be replaced it's a juggling act to ensure that those all remain saleable while you produce their replacements, and doing that by initially offering fewer and/or different options on the replacement kits means people keep buying both as long as they are available.
2023/07/28 08:33:34
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
I'm not convinced Primaris will ever get the flexibility of Firstborn units tbh. 1 Special weapon per unit and customizable Sergeant seems to be the way forward. Will also mean more sales for GW as the meta FOTM shifts, you'll need to replace entire units instead of just magnetizing a couple..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/28 08:35:41
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
2023/07/28 09:18:04
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
tauist wrote: I'm not convinced Primaris will ever get the flexibility of Firstborn units tbh. 1 Special weapon per unit and customizable Sergeant seems to be the way forward. Will also mean more sales for GW as the meta FOTM shifts, you'll need to replace entire units instead of just magnetizing a couple..
Ever is a long time, though. GW is going to need new Marine stuff to sell within three years at most. They can drag things out to a degree with chapter specific kits and hope Woofs and Angels catch the interest of their customers enough, but there's no way around releasing new models for generic Marines. That means either ever more specialized Whateverzors with all the range bloat that entails, or a period of adding loadout options to existing units. That worked out before when GW introduced grav weapons and those bits and kits became popular and drove sales of Tacticals and Devastators that, as units, were hardly new.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
2023/07/28 11:17:18
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Overread wrote: the lack of attention/investment for a considerable period of time (as evident by how popular End Times became and how sales rose when GW focused on it).
Citation needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theres nothing I have ever found that indicates that sales of WHFB verifiably increased through The End Times release cycle. This is a popular internet myth.The only hard data we presently have access to (see my previous post) would indicate that The End Times did nothing for GW's top or bottom line. Also, I recall I did another post at some point in the past looking at icv2 top 5 non-collectible games data - WHFB actually dropped off the list through the quarters that The End Times was released IIRC which indicates that sales were not there.
I remember End Times stuff sold out very quickly on the webstore, which was something that never happened back then even for 40k.
Stuff always gets a sales bump when you announce it's going away. It's true classic FOMO. Get the stuff while you can. But it's not like you can just announce you're ending a game, take the massive sales spike and go "actually this is loads more popular than we thought, we'll keep it going instead"
2023/07/28 11:20:33
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Overread wrote: the lack of attention/investment for a considerable period of time (as evident by how popular End Times became and how sales rose when GW focused on it).
Citation needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theres nothing I have ever found that indicates that sales of WHFB verifiably increased through The End Times release cycle. This is a popular internet myth.The only hard data we presently have access to (see my previous post) would indicate that The End Times did nothing for GW's top or bottom line. Also, I recall I did another post at some point in the past looking at icv2 top 5 non-collectible games data - WHFB actually dropped off the list through the quarters that The End Times was released IIRC which indicates that sales were not there.
I remember End Times stuff sold out very quickly on the webstore, which was something that never happened back then even for 40k.
Stuff always gets a sales bump when you announce it's going away. It's true classic FOMO. Get the stuff while you can. But it's not like you can just announce you're ending a game, take the massive sales spike and go "actually this is loads more popular than we thought, we'll keep it going instead"
If I recall right GW never said End Times was the actual end. Yes the story was presenting it as such, but no one actually believed GW would, you know, end the entire setting of what was their flagship original main line and one of their, at the time, only three main product lines and their second main product line that they have full copyright over (Lord of the Rings always has the risk that the licence holder can just revoke/not renew and GW loses the ability to sell the entire range).
Certainly there was a lot of the campaign leading up to the very final chapter where it was just GW as normal, advancing story, releasing new models and all. Indeed no one expects a firm to end a product line by spending attention, money and investment on it in the way GW did.
Yeah GW never said they were killing WHFB off. As far as everyone was concerned, The End Times was a cool campaign that marked GW bringing renewed life to their much-shunned game.
Unfortuntely it wasn't renewed life, but new life as they resurrected Age of Sigmar from the splattered remains of WHFB.
2023/07/28 12:19:08
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Overread wrote: the lack of attention/investment for a considerable period of time (as evident by how popular End Times became and how sales rose when GW focused on it).
Citation needed. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Theres nothing I have ever found that indicates that sales of WHFB verifiably increased through The End Times release cycle. This is a popular internet myth.The only hard data we presently have access to (see my previous post) would indicate that The End Times did nothing for GW's top or bottom line. Also, I recall I did another post at some point in the past looking at icv2 top 5 non-collectible games data - WHFB actually dropped off the list through the quarters that The End Times was released IIRC which indicates that sales were not there.
I remember End Times stuff sold out very quickly on the webstore, which was something that never happened back then even for 40k.
Stuff always gets a sales bump when you announce it's going away. It's true classic FOMO. Get the stuff while you can. But it's not like you can just announce you're ending a game, take the massive sales spike and go "actually this is loads more popular than we thought, we'll keep it going instead"
If I recall right GW never said End Times was the actual end. Yes the story was presenting it as such, but no one actually believed GW would, you know, end the entire setting of what was their flagship original main line and one of their, at the time, only three main product lines and their second main product line that they have full copyright over (Lord of the Rings always has the risk that the licence holder can just revoke/not renew and GW loses the ability to sell the entire range).
Certainly there was a lot of the campaign leading up to the very final chapter where it was just GW as normal, advancing story, releasing new models and all. Indeed no one expects a firm to end a product line by spending attention, money and investment on it in the way GW did.
You remember right that GW did not say anything about the game's future during the End Times series, being Kirby's GW and therefore not telling anyone anything, ever.
If you were one of the people following rumors, also known as the only way to get any news about Warhammer at the time, as I recall we got a pretty decent idea of the game's end and followup from Hastings as early as December 2014. Whether you wanted to believe it or not aside, around the third book in the series the cat was out of the bag.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
2023/07/28 14:43:05
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Yes. I remember there were very strong rumors that the game was being ended fully, and it was a somewhat common belief, but there was no official statement on the topic from GW and there were many in total denial about the concept and refused to believe it.
I remember clear as day the waves of shock that rippled through the community when the final book dropped and it ended with the destruction of the entire setting save for one man clinging to an orb in a chaotic void. It was like all the air had been sucked out of the community.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2023/07/28 16:04:42
Subject: More Firstborn Marine kits going "Last Chance to Buy"
Albertorius wrote: During a good number of years we just couldn't put LoTR stuff on the shelves fast enough, because people was buying it in droves.
...and then GW decided to double the price and halve the amount of sprues in boxes.
There was no notable price increase during the height of LOTR. The price increase was a decade later, during the 2nd or 3rd attempt to reboot the game (roughly when the Hobbit came out).
