Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Because I've been lazy, I still have Starcannons on my 3 Weapon Platforms for my Guardians. I know they're not as cost effective nor game effective, but I typically use them anyways. I've recently added an Avatar to my army, which makes my cheapo Guardians Fearless.

My last opponent, who plays Imperial Fists (Lysanderwing), made an interesting comment that got me thinking. He told me that he coud not ignore my Guardians mainly due to the Starcannon. He was Terminator heavy and had the Guardians fielded a Scatterlaser, he would have ignored them for other, more pressing targets.

I ran 3 squads of 10 Guardians w/ Starcannon for 105 pts each. All whom were Fearless b/c of the Avatar. Basically, he was having to kill every Guardian (Avatar would not get in front of 10 Assault Cannons) to stop the AP2 weapons from being a threat. This left my more expensive units to go after objectives.

Now, I'm not advocating dumping all other weapons for the Starcannon. However, it did get me rethinking some strategy.

The problem with giving guardians starcannons is that it is the only way groundpounder eldar armies have to generate any serious anti tank firepower.

Besides which, he was overreacting to them. The new starcannons average 0.89 wounds a turn, then he has an invunerable save on top of that.

Three might be a magic number where terminators are concerned, though. The combined fire of 3 starcannons is just over 2.5 wounds, or just more than half a terminator squad.

Starcannon: .56 dead termies

Scatterlaser: .28 dead termies. Starcannon is the definite winner when it comes to dropping 2+ save things.

The thing to remember though, Just because it is dangerous and can't be ignored doesn't mean that it's efficient. A friend of mine uses a 4 lascannon dev squad. That is something that can't be ignored because it's dangerous. He also uses lascannon anti-tank squads attached to his imperial guard HQ. Both draw alot of fire and die.

Against 40+ pt terminators the starcannon is a great thing, even in guarian squads. The problem is that when it plays against marines it stats losing out to more efficient things.

If you know your going to play against terminator heavy things then take guarians with starcannons. Best way to kill termies. If you dont, then they could easily end up being a waste.

regardless of efficiency, you do have to admit it isnt a baad price to pay for a couple units that take some nasty fire away from elements that could use a red herring to make them last longer.

With termies becoming more and more prevalnt in marine builds, it might not be a bad idea to take atleast one maxed size guardian squad (or min sized if playing in COD) with starcannon. It has the staying power of a bull.

I know it would be a priority for me when I play my lysander to wipe them out.

Do heavy flamers not chew the bollocks of them though?
My eldar opponents fear da scorcha.

Yes, but few Marine players bother with Hvy Flamer Termies, seeing the Assault Cannon (rightly) as God's Gift To Termies. The other thing to keep in mind is that when one gets close enough (12") to a Guardian squad to use flamers, you are also in range of those Assault 2 cats...and when there are 12 or 16 Guardians in the squad, that gets mighty painful mighty fast.

-Adso

And yes, when I play my small and Guardian heavy Eldar army, I do also fear da skorchas. And da boyz. But they fear the Pansy Greenskins more (Striking Scorpions).

-Adso

I don't think I'd put too much stock in the opinions of a Terminator heavy army. The Starcannon, nerfed or not, is perfectly tailored to kill Terminators, and thus totally worth the price. But, against normal Marines it loses some cost effectiveness. And against Orks it can kill one every round and barely make its points back.

I agree that the starcannon is good, but there are other things that do its job better. I have only played about 10 games or so with my eldar, but I have found out that I prefer to take out termintos in HtH. Harlequins and Prince Yeirl will do a far better job than the starcannon gurdian squad. I prefer to use Guardians as long-range fire support with a brightlance.

I concede that the matchup was a bit unusual. It was his standard Lysanderwing (5 Termie units) w/ 3 Devs w/ 4 Missile Launchers and some Scouts.

My list is an atypical tourney list, so it's not a true mech or a true ground pound; more of a mix of the two. But, it fits my playing style and I can still get some wins out of it.

Things I can't truly factor for you math wizards out there: in a stand up, just roll dice and shoot at one another, he clearly had me outgunned and your math will show. Now, factor in terrain, range (his 24" Assault Cannons vs. my mostly 36" shooting army), and mission (Recon, Gamma) and mathhammer becomes much more blurry.


Tactics will vary from game to game. I'd love to get assault units into Terminators, but my opponents simply don't present me with that opportunity. They Deep Strike well away. Now, if I get Shining Spears....

Posted By Sarigar on 03/29/2007 5:12 AM
Things I can't truly factor for you math wizards out there: in a stand up, just roll dice and shoot at one another, he clearly had me outgunned and your math will show.

Well his entire army will clearly outshoot the 315 points that we know you had, but you might want to look at it another way. 

Whilst the (fearless) guardian/starcannon is not a big bang unit, it is a decent attrition unit in this situation.  Over 5 turns the starcannon alone has a decent (55.5%) chance of 3+ dead termies (120+points) of which there is an 11.5% chance of killing a whole 5 man unit (240pts). That also means VPs for you (120 or 240). Given that it is fearless and presumably in cover, it is likely to be good for making those points unless he starts dealing with it early on, a single termie unit is going to take 3 turns on average to kill 10 guardians in (sv5) cover and gain just 105 VP from his 240 pt unit. So against a termie army they arn't bad given you have to have 2 troops of some sort.

Posted By Phryxis on 03/27/2007 9:29 PM
I don't think I'd put too much stock in the opinions of a Terminator heavy army. The Starcannon, nerfed or not, is perfectly tailored to kill Terminators, and thus totally worth the price.

Thanks for basically mirroring what I said, even though you recommended that I should not be heeded.

Posted By puree on 03/31/2007 5:32 AM

Posted By Sarigar on 03/29/2007 5:12 AM
Things I can't truly factor for you math wizards out there: in a stand up, just roll dice and shoot at one another, he clearly had me outgunned and your math will show.

Well his entire army will clearly outshoot the 315 points that we know you had, but you might want to look at it another way. 

Whilst the (fearless) guardian/starcannon is not a big bang unit, it is a decent attrition unit in this situation.  Over 5 turns the starcannon alone has a decent (55.5%) chance of 3+ dead termies (120+points) of which there is an 11.5% chance of killing a whole 5 man unit (240pts). That also means VPs for you (120 or 240). Given that it is fearless and presumably in cover, it is likely to be good for making those points unless he starts dealing with it early on, a single termie unit is going to take 3 turns on average to kill 10 guardians in (sv5) cover and gain just 105 VP from his 240 pt unit. So against a termie army they arn't bad given you have to have 2 troops of some sort.

Ahhh, man.  Why'd you have to get all math hammer on me? Now I'm confused...

 

But, I'm still happy I finally beat a Lysanderwing with my non optimized Eldar.

Posted By Sarigar on 03/31/2007 3:29 PM

Ahhh, man.  Why'd you have to get all math hammer on me? Now I'm confused...

lol - ok in simple terms.

The guardian/starcannons aren't likely to swing a battle in one turn like some elite stuff may, but over the course of a game against termies they will make their points back and some, and, properly placed, they will require more effort from the termies to kill off than he gets back for doing it. They 'win' by attrition.

That, I can understand which, ironically, is how it worked out.

See kids, don't let anyone tell you folks with college degrees are smart. It just means we're persistent...

The starcannon still reigns supreme as the best ap2 weapon in the game.

Str 6? Yes please. Ap 2? Even better. 36" range? Sweet. Move and Fire? Aww, now you're just laying it on too thick...

Think of it this way; it's a plasma gun that gets to move and shoot and shoot at something every turn (unless things have gone horrendously wrong). Look at it that way and its usefulness should be quite apparent. It beats out a plasma cannon in most typical situations. At just a hair over 100 points, a guardian squad with a starcannon is still one of the best buys in the game.

That doesn't mean that they don't take some very particular tactics to use, and that that they don't have specific, glaring weaknesses. The Avatar is probably the ONLY reason why I'd ever use Guardians; without the Avatar they run too often or die in assault far too often to be worth considering. Just like every other Eldar unit, Guardians have a specific place and must be supported within the army.