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Consider this:
I have a 101 point 10-man Guard Squad. It is equipped with a Lascannon, Plasma Gun, and Veteran Sergeant for the morale boost. It's a decent squad, and can do well against most enemy units. However, in feeling the heat after a couple of very close games, I've realized that my redeployment speed is incredibly slow. I need additional mobility coupled with modest firepower while on the move. I turn to the Chimera.

At 70 points bare bones, it may seem like a deal. After all, I'm getting a light tank with AV12 on the front, and a complement of weapons almost equivalent to two heavy weapons teams. But then, I realize something. I have to fork up 20 points for the standard armament consisting of a Hull Heavy Bolter and a Multilaser. On top of that, the light armament is not always enough to shrug off the more determined of enemies, which means that when I decide to make the seemingly modest investment in Extra Armor and a Heavy Stubber, I suddenly find myself 17 points short of what I had before.

The Chimera is no heavyweight - its armor and weapons complement tell us that much about it. It can carry 12 men, but when I realize that they're in the tank because they're even worse than it is at killing enemy units, that seems more like a pain, since the vehicle now is potentially 101 points more expensive than before. Worst of all, after making the small investments that I listed in the previous paragraph, I have given a 101pt squad a 107pt transport. The combined firepower of both the Chimera and the Guard Sqaud (208 points worth of stuff) at 24" is roughly equivalent to a 10-man Marine Squad with a Lascannon and Plasma gun (185 pts), and yet we Guardsmen are paying a 23 point premium for a vehicle that is superior only to the Rhino in firepower, and is actually capable of getting killed by the silly little Storm Bolter mounted atop these 35 point featherweight vehicles.

We're already paying too much for our soldiers and equipment, on a points efficiency level, so why do we have to pay an extra 20+ points to get a vehicle that is going to get shot up the moment it enters the enemy's line of sight?

My proposal: Make the Chimera worth the points. Rhinos weren't worth it, so GW dropped their price down to 35 points for the Dark Angels. Assault Cannons are too good, so GW is adjusting their cost. Instead of just making them cheaper, I'd like to see this little transport become a capable IFV, with the potential to take down larger armored targets, via the following profile:

* * * * *

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Chimera IFV

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Armor

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Front

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BS

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60

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12

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11

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10

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3

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Type: Tank

Crew: Imperial Guard

Weapons: Turret-Mounted Multilaser. The Chimera may replace the Multilaser with one of the following weapons at the points cost indicated: Heavy Bolter for free, Heavy Flamethrower for free, Autocannon for +10 points.

In addition, the Chimera may take one hull-mounted weapon to increase its firepower. These are taken at the points cost indicated: Heavy Bolter for +5 points, Heavy Flamethrower for +5 points, Multi-Melta for +15 points.

Lastly, the Chimera may replace the six hull-mounted lasguns that are used by the passengers with six bolters for +15 points.

Transport: A Chimera may transport up to 12 models, with Ogryns taking up two spaces each. Chimera transports, though bought and assigned for a specific squad, may transport other units with impunity, although they must start the game with the squad that purchased the Chimera on board.

Accesss Points: Rear exit ramp. The top hatch may be opened at the beginning of the movement phase to allow the Guardsmen inside to disembark rapidly upon arriving at their destination. However, this leaves the vehicle vulnerable - it will remain as an open-topped vehicle until the start of the owning player's next turn.

Fire Points: The six firing slots (three to a side) are either fitted with lasguns or bolters, and may be used by the crew when in transit, even if the Chimera has moved more than 6". There is also a top hatch, which may be used by a single model or a two-man heavy weapons team. If used, the Chimera counts as being open-topped until the owning player's next turn. Heavy weapons may be used if the vehicle has moved, but suffer a -1 BS penalty (it is assumed they are used to shooting moving targets, but not while they're moving as well). Barrage heavy weapons like mortars require that the Chimera remain stationary.

SPECIAL RULES
Amphibious: All water is treated as clear terrain when the Chimera moves.

Simple Construction: Chimeras have a simple chassis and engine system. Unlike their more complicated weaponry and electronic gear, the simple combustion engines of the Chimera are so easily fixable, that Guardsmen have been trained with rudimentary mechanical skills to fix up their vehicle during combat.

If a Chimera is immobilized, it can forgo firing one weapon to attempt a repair on the vehicle (the crewman manning one of the guns drops down and "takes a look under the hood," so to speak.). It will successfully be "remobilized" on a D6 roll of a 6. If a Techpriest is attempting to repair the vehicle, the model receives a +1 modifier on his repair roll, as it is assumed that the crewman inside will aid the Enginseer and his Servitors.

* * * * *

Kind of long winded, I know. Thoughts, questions, comments?

CK

the chimera is not a tank. it's an infantry fighting vehicle (IFV), a very good one at that. 90 points is not very much for what you're getting. quit complaining

cutting the cost by 25 points is completely absurd. with a heavy stubber, heavy bolter and multilasers, you're putting out nearly the same firepower as a predator destructor (9 shots at S6,5,4 vs 8 shots at S7,5) and it can transport troops to capture objectives and stuff. your "fire heavy weapons when moving" rule is overpowered and the "simple construction" rule is out of character and kind of stupid. chimera are complex vehicles... they're not rhinos.

Remember, if you want a cheaper chimera, the hull weapon is not manditory, you do not HAVE to have it.

I play mechanized guard. I have 6 chimeras. I like chimeras. In a straight up slugfest, I perform on the same level as a guline guard army does; ie, pretty well, but not as hot as the power lists do. However, when real missions roll around and there are objectives to grab etc, the difference in the mobile firepower of the chimeras is incredible. Remember, that's 9 shots per turn along with getting to move 6". Also, never underestimate the "wall o' chimeras" or "wagon circle" tactics where you deny the enemy shots at your rear/side through careful dployment of your infantry an AV 12 side vehicles (russes and hellhounds). I think that vehicle rules in the first place should be overhauled, rather than vehicle points costs dropped to reflect their in-game value. As is, they are glass hammers and against stiff competition, will eventually lose out. I'd run the numbers of a 6 man las/plas squad VS a kitted out chimera, but I'm not that into it atm. Possibly later.
Cheers

I always liked the idea of Chimeras coming as open-topped vehicles, so that IG could have an assault transport.

If you're going to take away the dedicated transport rule for the one army that should seem most bound by it, why not make chimeras a little like advisors? If the armoured fist squad can send their transport back to bring up more of the platoon, why not just make them part of the platoon? Maybe have Chimeras come in platoons as a separate troops choice of 3-6 vehicles, 0-1 Chimera Platoon for each Infantry Platoon purchased; or for mechanized armies, 1 Chimera Platoon for each infantry platoon.

IMHO you're on a bit of thin ice throwing around GW standards for that particular Codex. I see DA as more a sort of "Codex: Mechanized Space Marines" than neccessarily a vision of things to come - sort of like if they brought out an Imperial Fists book with 35-point Terminators and Lysander's rules for all Masters, or a White Scars book that gave all Scout Bike Sergeants Improved Comms.

Throwing out some more numbers: maybe:
Chimera Platoon 3-5 vehicles 12 10 10 BS3 Open-topped Tank 45 points

Weapons: Basic Chimerae MAY mount up to two weapons - one hull and one pintle. Hard-top Chimerae gain a turret mount for free and a firing slot that allows up to three passengers with Rapid Fire or Assault weapons on each flank of the vehicle to fire from their compartment without making it open-topped. (the "lasguns" are no longer vehicle mounted)

Options and Vehicle Upgrades: Armoured Crew Compartment +20, Camo netting +1, Searchlight +1, smokes +3, extra armour +7.  storm bolter +3, heavy stubber +7 may be hull, turret and/or pintle mounted. heavy flamer +10 heavy bolter +12 points require a hull or turret mount each. 0-1 multi-laser +15, 0-1 autocannon +20,  0-1 launcher equipped with 1D3 Hunter-Killer missiles +15 (TOW-style setup) may be mounted only in the turret - only hard-topped Chimerae have turrets.

Now that I'm looking at it, I think I was trying to make the Chimera a little too overpowered.

My goal was to give it the option of going from a BMP equivalent vehicle to an LAV 600 or an M2 Bradley, turning it into a light tank with matching firepower, while leaving it with the option of remaining a light, cheap transport to suit the player's needs (i.e., an upgunned Imperial version of a Trukk being given the option of turning into a Predator Destructor.).

Again, just my thoughts. I'm glad to see that others are satisfied with the Chimera - I still find them a bit lacking, although that may just be because of my playing style, in that I could be trying to force them into a role that they shouldn't be playing.

CK

Hmm. For an LAV3, just give all weapons the rending roll. (1/6 chance of hitting the effectively unarmoured turret)

I see Chimmies as closer to an overgunned BMP rather than a Bradley. In 40k terms, the IG are the Soviets NOT the Americans - those guys are called Space Marines. I'd say a 40k-equivalent of a Bradley would be a "Rhizorback" crewed only by a PotMS* - transports 8 - and armed with long-barreled twin-linked tinned rump roast and a full hunter-killer rack sporting a Tau-traded always-hits-rear-armour guidance system. (chaingun + TOW + big back seat)
*(which is even sort of fluffy considered the supposed tech they employ and the wording on the explanation for Flesh Over Steel)

You can always take a unit of rhino equiped Inquisitor Storm Troopers, but Chimeras are fine as they are. Feel free to VDR some 11/10/10 bare bones transports if you need too.

Posted By wight_widow on 03/30/2007 8:23 AM

I see Chimmies as closer to an overgunned BMP rather than a Bradley. In 40k terms, the IG are the Soviets NOT the Americans - those guys are called Space Marines. I'd say a 40k-equivalent of a Bradley would be a "Rhizorback" crewed only by a PotMS* - transports 8 - and armed with long-barreled twin-linked tinned rump roast and a full hunter-killer rack sporting a Tau-traded always-hits-rear-armour guidance system. (chaingun + TOW + big back seat)
*(which is even sort of fluffy considered the supposed tech they employ and the wording on the explanation for Flesh Over Steel)

Wow Imperial Guard are related to today’s soviet union (I thought it fell in 89?) and space marines are equivalent to the American army (wow were not patriotic here), no offence intended, but I do not think that there is any real current tank equivalent to any tank in warhamer. Sorry folks, but I think that is a different topic....

As for your Chimera problem I'd go with the previously stated VDR and make your self some type of truck w/ 10 hull round armor and a heavy bolter or something like that for ~30pts (I could be wrong haven’t looked at the thing in years).

Keep the Chimera the same except it should be 75 or 80 points and have AV11 sides. Other than that it's perfect.

BYE

AV12 sides, its the same chassis as a Hellhound.

I could live with that. How much is a Wave Serpent? 120 or so with guns? 130? So it'd probably make the Chimera 90-100 points.

BYE

I would say the main problem is cost. Either reduce the cost of the Chimera's weapons upgrades, or make the bare bones tank cheaper, or both. As it is, when you move a squad by Chimera, too many points are being unproductive for a whole shooting phase. A cheaper Chimera would help this problem.

I think the Chimera should be 55pts bare bones, +10 for the Multilaser, +8 for a hull Heavy Bolter and +5 for a hull Heavy Flamer.

As far as other options go, how about this?

"When the going gets tough in the field, many regiments simply don't have enough 'real' tanks to go around, or suffer heavy armor losses which are not replaced. Often, infantry companies desperate for a little more support will strip armor from damaged vehicles and requisition heavy weapons from their comrades to build 'Poor Man's Russes' out of Chimerae. The resulting tank is a field-conversion standard for company engineers across the Imperium, but can rarely stand toe to toe with purpose built heavy tanks for long."

Chimera Light Tank Upgrade: +30 pts

If the Light Tank Upgrade is taken, the Chimera gains +1 AV to its side and rear facings and automatically receives the Extra Armor and Track Guards vehicle upgrades.

When the Light Tank Upgrade is taken, the Chimera loses its Amphibious ability, all passenger capacity, and the six hull lasguns.

A light tank Chimera may take a turret mounted Autocannon at +15 pts or a Lascannon at +20 pts, instead of normal Chimera turret options.

It may take a hull-mounted twin-inked plasma gun at +10 pts, Autocannon at +15 pts, or Lascannon at +20 pt,s instead of the normal Chimera hull weapon options.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/01/2007 11:17 PM
I could live with that. How much is a Wave Serpent? 120 or so with guns? 130? So it'd probably make the Chimera 90-100 points.

BYE

Ditto. The current armor 10 is such a negative factor now. 

@Death Wing: Maybe I put that analogy a little stronger than I meant it - there're a lot more differences between 40k and real-world equivalents than there are (ignoring the actual performance of them as in the rules) between, say, The Empire in Fantasy Battle and most Thirty Years War forces; or Brettonia and the Hundred Years War; or High Elves and Hittites. I concur that 40k and moderns are pretty darn far apart - a modern tank, for instance, is capable of cross-country speeds greater than eight kilometers an hour, and a modern mortar typically has a larger blast radius than a modern HE shell as shot from a tank gun. 40k is about the closest to a pure fiction gaming system as is in existence. My point is more that we can talk about armies inside a sci-fi system with vague analogies to real-life armies in terms of their fluff if not their performance per se - as their performance is just the way the coex writers interpret the fluff based on their own ideas and playtesting. (Imperium=Nazi ideology + Soviet methodology, blah, blah, blah...)

I'll admit I'm also not much of one to be making such large comparisons, being a relative acolyte to moderns in gaming terms and verging towards apostasy in 40k. (the growing consensus in my circle is to entirely scrap the GW rules for purposes of in-club play - so at some point I'm going to have to stop making posts in the army list section - ironically this is probably going to lead to me buying another BfM because I now want a second crashed space ship for double-blind) I guess a better way to put it would have been "even if there was an equivalent of a Bradley in 40k terms, the IG shouldn't get it."

The Chimera costs more for the IG because it covers for their glaring weakness. IG have poor survivabilty and poor mobility. You guys can argue that 12/10/10 isnt that great, but when you have a demolisher on one side and a Russ on the other, suddenly your enemy is faced with 12 minimum across the board.

The Chimera can still move 6 and fire its multilaser and heavy bolter, meaning you lose no firepower by moving at the same pace as infantry. It can move 12' when you need it. If you sit still, your infantry can pop open the hatch and fire from it too. Properly used, you now have an AV 12 bunker. Or you can sacrifice it to block strategic lines of sight. Those tau broadsides will feel really stupid if a chimera blows up and cuts off their vision to the rest of the army. And those Bezerkers? Difficult terrain tests. IG need time to shoot their enemy into submission. Chimera's can buy you that time.

Compare this to your IG squads. They need cover or LD bonuses to survive, and at long range only have one weapon firing. An Armored Fist squad is tactically more flexable and better at killing infantry then two heavy bolter IG squads for nearly the same price. It isn't meant to slug it out with the MBTs, it gets your infantry to the fight, then sticks around to help against other infantry so they can't get close to your tanks.

Tau have the same "glaring weaknesses" yet their transport is a skimmer, and has better side armor. Marines have no such weaknesses yet their transports are both cheaper and have 11 side armor.

Cough wave serpent envy Cought

I like the chimera, I like the model, but it could use a bump and av 11 sides would do nicely. As it is now that long sided tank is bolter bait. The reason it is not used as a trasport is becuase it can not get to the enemy line safely. It must act as a light tank, firing from long range so that its av10 sides are not exposed. Heck, drop the points a bit, and remove its ability to carry troops and I would be a happy camper.

I think it would be interesting to break up the Chimera's functions into two separate vehicles:

Chimera Transport


Type: Tank
Crew: 3 Imperial Guardsmen

Weapons: Turret-mounted Twin-Linked Heavy Stubber. May take a hull mounted Heavy Bolter for +10 points, or a Hull Heavy Flamethrower for +10 points. May also replace the TL Heavy Stubber with a Heavy Bolter or a Multilaser for +10 points. In addition, the Chimera also has three lasguns mounted on each side of its transport compartment, and may fire those so long as there is a squad inside to man the guns. They may be fired regardless of how far the Chimera has moved that turn.

Transport: the Chimera may transport up to 12 models within its armored shell. Ogryns count as two models. It has one access point at the rear of the vehicle.

Special Rules:
Amphibious: The Chimera treats water as clear terrain for the purposes of movement.

Chimera Light Tank

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Points

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Armor:

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Chimera Light Tank

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90

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12

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12

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Type: Tank
Crew: 4 Imperial Guardsmen

Weapons: Turret mounted Multilaser, Hull Heavy Bolter. May replace Multilaser with an Autocannon for +10 points, a Heavy Bolter at no extra cost, or a Lascannon for +20 points. May replace Hull Heavy Bolter for a Heavy Flamethrower at no extra cost.

Transport: Chimera Light Tanks may not transport models.

Special Rules:
Amphibious: The Chimera Light Tank treats water as clear terrain for the purposes of movement.

Posted By Durandal on 04/05/2007 1:15 PM
IG have poor survivabilty and poor mobility. You guys can argue that 12/10/10 isnt that great...

Poor survivability? On an individual level yes, but each Guardsmen brings 100 of his closest friends with him. Guard are a horde army. Surviving is what they do! And 12/10/10 isn't that great when it costs you 70 points before you've even got a gun and you're not fast or a skimmer.

BYE

Odd. I really like my chimerae. Granted, I never ever use them for transporting guardsmen, but 97 points for a moving unit that fires 9 shots a turn at 36" feels like a real bargain to me, and if people shoot at it it means less attacks on my proper tanks.

I am with Sylph as well. Though I do not use the h. stubber upgrade, I think the chimera is right around where it needs to be.

AV 12 on the sides would make it a *great* buy, and I agree AV 10 is its biggest weakness, so AV 11 seems a reasonable compromise.

A 5 point drop in value may work, while a 10 point would make it a great purchase.

One switch or the other, I'd be happy guy, and I am a long time IG player, and specifically a Steel Legion player since Armageddon III!

I have 8 Chimeras and use them as often as possible. I think they're great vehicles. They have a great combination of firepower and mobility.

They're also very long, have AV10 sides, and cost way too much before you give them weapons. 85 for AV10 sides is just not good. AV11 is what we're trialing them at. 75 points for an AV12/11/10 vehicle with a Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter.

BYE

Better a Chimera than a Razorback. I wont compare with a Rhino as they have no teeth.

Razorbacks cost 70 all in, but have one gun, albeit twin linked and the side armour you covet is what they get on front.

Granted that most vehicles are overcosted for what they are and what they can do. IG certainly are not being singled out.

The reason to take Razorbacks and Chimerae is because they are 'free' add ons to troops choices and not HS choices. Armour is all about numbers, have too many for the enemy heavy weapons to deal with. Three Chimerae/Razorbacks make your Russes/Predators go further. All in all in this version of 40K it doesnt work too well. There are just too many ways to take cheap anti-tank.

My biggest problem with fielding the Chimera in an IG army is that the survivability rate of one 10-man squad of Guard is too low to run them up and try to hold anything unless it's WAY late in the game.  I personally only use mine to run up a "suicide squad" of Veterans w/3 melta-guns to try and drop an enemy vehicle quickly. 

The "wall" strategy works if you're using Hellhounds or Demolishers.  I personally like to stick my Russ's in the corners to use the Battle Cannon's range.  Running them up and risking exposing the rear doesn't make much sense,IMO.  If you're using a lot of squads,that wall is also blocking your guys's LOS.

The points cost needs to drop.  GW justifies things as "what they are worth to the army" in the Codex's.  That's how they "justify" a Guardsman with a Melta-gun costing the same 16 points as an Eldar Fire Dragon even though the Fire Dragon has one higher BS and WS,two higher Initiative,one higher LD,a 4+ save instead of 5+,and Fleet of Foot.  Chimeras aren't transporting Marines.  They're transporting Guard.